I absolutely hate the idea of Beerus having ANY type of UI..

[GodVegetto91]

Beerus should just be “STRONG”, insanely overpowered. Because he’s a God of Destruction.. So he shouldn’t need UI. If he uses Ultra Instinct (ANY version of it!) it would actually diminish his status as the absolutely strongest, most powerful, and most destructive God in Universe 7. Because that would mean he would need to rely on a cheat technique.. But Beerus was introduced as a being with a super high power level! In fact, the fact that Beerus was so strong was actually the whole reason why Goku needed to get UI in the first place! As a “cheat” technique to even the odds against the terrifyingly powerful destruction God, Lord Beerus..

It just doesn’t suit him. He’s not someone calm and collected like the Angels and Goku are. He’s a freakin God of Destruction for crying out loud!

I have no problem with him just being highly skilled. But he shouldn’t have any type of actual Ultra Instinct.

What do you think guys?

[Hugo Boss]

Ultra Instinct is actually told to be the ultimate technique of the Gods. For some reason, that’s what Moro calls it, a power wielded by the gods. It seems each God of Destruction has a specialty, going by the abilities they displayed in Zeno’s exhibition matches, but there is a common goal among them, which is to achieve Ultra Instinct. Naturally, it’s much easier for a God to attain Ultra Instinct, because of their super resistance. And going by the way Beerus describes Goku’s movements, that’s how a god should be fighting.

I wouldn’t exactly describe it as a cheat move, but rather a state of mind that makes one excel in martial arts. Beerus seems to be interested in it and he certainly is able to control his emotions in front of several ill-tempered gods.

[GodVegetto91]

Ultra Instinct is actually told to be the ultimate technique of the Gods. For some reason, that’s what Moro calls it, a power wielded by the gods. It seems each God of Destruction has a specialty, going by the abilities they displayed in Zeno’s exhibition matches, but there is a common goal among them, which is to achieve Ultra Instinct. Naturally, it’s much easier for a God to attain Ultra Instinct, because of their super resistance. And going by the way Beerus describes Goku’s movements, that’s how a god should be fighting.

I wouldn’t exactly describe it as a cheat move, but rather a state of mind that makes one excel in martial arts. Beerus seems to be interested in it and he certainly is able to control his emotions in front of several ill-tempered gods.

I still hate it...

But if they ARE going to give him UI, then it should be all or nothing. Just give him the FULL thing already, where he has both the offensive and defensive side of it. “True” mastered Ultra Instinct. Since the worst thing would be any type of half assed UI. Either give him all or nothing. There should be no inbetween. That just messes things up.

But I rather just want him to not have any type of actual UI at all, but just super-duper skilled like the type of fighting that Master Roshi showcased during the tournament of power. I would have no problem with that.

Having a super-high battle power + super-high skill.

If he has that, then he would never need Ultra Instinct.

[Psajdak]

Don't worry, Beerus doesn't matter anymore, anyway.

[Cipher]

I have no problem with it, since it’s been baked into the concept from the beginning.

The very first time Whis introduces what would become the seed of the idea of UI in “F,” iirc, he references that kind of fighting remaining difficult even for Beerus.

It’s always been a technique encouraged by angels, and to which Beerus—and presumably other Gods of Destruction—have aspired but never perfected. Hence what we see of his fledgling use of the technique in the exhibition match in the manga.

To that extent, it’s also never presented as a “cheat” move (unless you’re Jiren having just been blasted into the stage in the manga), but simply the ideal endpoint of martial arts ability. (Though it’s also not unbeatable, and indeed simply “out-stronging” it is possible as with just about everything in Dragon Ball—the series’ sole, silly, consistent logic.)

[BWri]

Beerus should just be “STRONG”, insanely overpowered. Because he’s a God of Destruction.. So he shouldn’t need UI. If he uses Ultra Instinct (ANY version of it!) it would actually diminish his status as the absolutely strongest, most powerful, and most destructive God in Universe 7. Because that would mean he would need to rely on a cheat technique..

I think it would actually cement his status as one of the most powerful gods instead of diminishing it and more importantly it makes him more interesting as a character. I rather like the idea of Goku pushing him to polish his own techniques and fighting skills. Plus, if he and Goku do finally have their rematch then it presents another interesting dynamic to that match. I wonder if they'd use UI any differently.

I think we can just let Jiren be the pure strength guy. I'd rather not see that trope again anytime soon.

But Beerus was introduced as a being with a super high power level! In fact, the fact that Beerus was so strong was actually the whole reason why Goku needed to get UI in the first place! As a “cheat” technique to even the odds against the terrifyingly powerful destruction God, Lord Beerus..

I think it was introduced moreso as something for Goku to chase, something beyond pure strength. Goku is the ultimate pure martial artist in the show (though Roshi seems to be giving him a run for his money) so I think it makes sense for him to chase the ultimate state of being a pure martial artist can attain. It also makes sense that Beerus would have some experience with this technique/state of being as he is a lifelong student of the martial arts under Whis' guidance.

It just doesn’t suit him. He’s not someone calm and collected like the Angels and Goku are. He’s a freakin God of Destruction for crying out loud!

That's an interesting point. I can't completely disagree either. We've seen that he can be rather cool and collected when he wants to be which makes sense given his extremely long lifespan. I guess there's a reason he hasn't perfected it yet.

I have no problem with him just being highly skilled. But he shouldn’t have any type of actual Ultra Instinct.

What do you think guys?

I don't mind. It makes sense that he knows it but hasn't perfected it. I'm interested to see how he further handles the fact that Goku is mastering the technique before him. Will it kickstart him to complete UI himself once Goku completely masters it. Does he even need it to contend with UI Goku? This is the 1 story thread in Super that I am most interested in. I hope they resolve it.

[ankokudaishogun]

Having a super-high battle power + super-high skill.

If he has that, then he would never need Ultra Instinct.

you are missing one detail: Ultra Instinct is the final form of Super High Skill.
It's the apex of martial ability, having your body moving automatically in the best possible way.

[GodVegetto91]

Having a super-high battle power + super-high skill.

If he has that, then he would never need Ultra Instinct.

you are missing one detail: Ultra Instinct is the final form of Super High Skill.
It's the apex of martial ability, having your body moving automatically in the best possible way.

I’m OBVIOUSLY talking about the highest possible skill WITHOUT Ultra Instinct.. I believed you got the memo but apparently you didn’t..

[ankokudaishogun]

Having a super-high battle power + super-high skill.

If he has that, then he would never need Ultra Instinct.

you are missing one detail: Ultra Instinct is the final form of Super High Skill.
It's the apex of martial ability, having your body moving automatically in the best possible way.

I’m OBVIOUSLY talking about the highest possible skill WITHOUT Ultra Instinct.. I believed you got the memo but apparently you didn’t..

So, you want the SECOND highest possible skill?

Which is to say, you want him to be Jiren 2.0, as BWri pointed out.

[GodVegetto91]

you are missing one detail: Ultra Instinct is the final form of Super High Skill.
It's the apex of martial ability, having your body moving automatically in the best possible way.

I’m OBVIOUSLY talking about the highest possible skill WITHOUT Ultra Instinct.. I believed you got the memo but apparently you didn’t..

So, you want the SECOND highest possible skill?

Which is to say, you want him to be Jiren 2.0, as BWri pointed out.

Jiren doesn’t have any skill. He’s just “strong”.

Now Vegito, Perfect Cell, Master Roshi, and Mr. Popo all have incredible skill! I guess Piccolo would be up there too, as is 17.

[Hugo Boss]

Jiren doesn’t have any skill. He’s just “strong”.

Now Vegito, Perfect Cell, Master Roshi, and Mr. Popo all have incredible skill! I guess Piccolo would be up there too, as is 17.

Humm.. I don’t think you can reduce him to that. He seems to be incredibly aware of his surroundings, given how he reacts to Hit’s time skip and Ultra Instinct attacks. It’s only that his fighting style is focused on physical prowess and combat sense.

[ankokudaishogun]

Jiren doesn’t have any skill. He’s just “strong”.

Now Vegito, Perfect Cell, Master Roshi, and Mr. Popo all have incredible skill! I guess Piccolo would be up there too, as is 17.

Humm.. I don’t think you can reduce him to that. He seems to be incredibly aware of his surroundings, given how he reacts to Hit’s time skip and Ultra Instinct attacks. It’s only that his fighting style is focused on physical prowess and combat sense.

basically, Jiren has no use for fancy techniques(except his Eyes Shot, and that's more so he can punch people when his hands are busy), as they are usually used to punch above one's weight, but his martial skill is undoubted.

Basically,. he honed the basic to the utmost limit which, in many ways, brings him much closer to UI than others with more complex techniques.
If you remember, many were speculating he already had UI himself as explanation for his strength(and similitude of his limited aura with Sign Goku's)

[Jack Bz]

Not only is Jiren obviously a skilled martial artist, he's very perceptive in both the manga and the anime. For example, he's the first to tell Goku the nature of his mistake by trying to emulate kaioken against him, saying it's the same mistake Kale made earlier. He just doesn't have any bag of tricks or particularly special abilities.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Don't worry, Beerus doesn't matter anymore, anyway.

Why not?

[ChronoTwigger]

It's like considering the best sniper rifle less powerfull than a grenade.
Surely the grenade destory everything in range, but can't hit someone a mile away in that precise spot.

Now,you don't need an atomic explosion to defeat Goku, a simple lasergun suffice. What happen if you pierce Beerus heart with a needle? Probably he does die. He's not made of steel.
While both can survive or dodge blatant explosions.
Whatever your "power" (strenght produced by ki), the issue nowaday is to actually hit someone. They can teleport, counterattack with beams, stop time, your raw KI strenght is wasted.
You need the perfect sniper rifle.

[JewyB]

It's like considering the best sniper rifle less powerfull than a grenade.
Surely the grenade destory everything in range, but can't hit someone a mile away in that precise spot.

Now,you don't need an atomic explosion to defeat Goku, a simple lasergun suffice. What happen if you pierce Beerus heart with a needle? Probably he does die. He's not made of steel.
While both can survive or dodge blatant explosions.
Whatever your "power" (strenght produced by ki), the issue nowaday is to actually hit someone. They can teleport, counterattack with beams, stop time, your raw KI strenght is wasted.
You need the perfect sniper rifle.

This analogy works, but it can be expanded upon further. Sure the grenade wont work, but you increase the range then you have a greater chance. Going in with a nuke you more than cover up for that mile.

Raw power is meaningless against technique to a degree, but being able to dodge everything amounts to nothing when the planet you're standing on explodes and you cant dodge asphyxiation.

There are technicalities on both sides, but it purely depends on Beerus' level of strength, which, the strength discussion thread proves that is still loosely defined.

I like to think that Beerus is currently still strong and fast enough that UI Goku can still be taken down by him. He has the technique, now he needs to focus on raising his base, as Whis has been instructing him to do with no mind of him obtaining UI so early on. I hope that's where we lead, Goku improvign his baseline power and learning to master UI properly, the same way him and Gohan did with SSJ.

[ChronoTwigger]

It's like considering the best sniper rifle less powerfull than a grenade.
Surely the grenade destory everything in range, but can't hit someone a mile away in that precise spot.

Now,you don't need an atomic explosion to defeat Goku, a simple lasergun suffice. What happen if you pierce Beerus heart with a needle? Probably he does die. He's not made of steel.
While both can survive or dodge blatant explosions.
Whatever your "power" (strenght produced by ki), the issue nowaday is to actually hit someone. They can teleport, counterattack with beams, stop time, your raw KI strenght is wasted.
You need the perfect sniper rifle.

This analogy works, but it can be expanded upon further. Sure the grenade wont work, but you increase the range then you have a greater chance. Going in with a nuke you more than cover up for that mile.

Raw power is meaningless against technique to a degree, but being able to dodge everything amounts to nothing when the planet you're standing on explodes and you cant dodge asphyxiation.

There are technicalities on both sides, but it purely depends on Beerus' level of strength, which, the strength discussion thread proves that is still loosely defined.

I like to think that Beerus is currently still strong and fast enough that UI Goku can still be taken down by him. He has the technique, now he needs to focus on raising his base, as Whis has been instructing him to do with no mind of him obtaining UI so early on. I hope that's where we lead, Goku improvign his baseline power and learning to master UI properly, the same way him and Gohan did with SSJ.

Nuke is the final raw power, Ui is the best sniper (tech) ever. Who will win? In fact the whole DB saga is about overpowered people and the struggle to defeat them using just techs.
Techs look always a bit less efficient than raw destructive power, until they win by adding willpower and morale (with just an exception, belonging to another timeline anyway...).
So, the sniper alone doesn't win, you should add the character behind it.

Hey, I probably said something correct!

[JewyB]

It's like considering the best sniper rifle less powerfull than a grenade.
Surely the grenade destory everything in range, but can't hit someone a mile away in that precise spot.

Now,you don't need an atomic explosion to defeat Goku, a simple lasergun suffice. What happen if you pierce Beerus heart with a needle? Probably he does die. He's not made of steel.
While both can survive or dodge blatant explosions.
Whatever your "power" (strenght produced by ki), the issue nowaday is to actually hit someone. They can teleport, counterattack with beams, stop time, your raw KI strenght is wasted.
You need the perfect sniper rifle.

This analogy works, but it can be expanded upon further. Sure the grenade wont work, but you increase the range then you have a greater chance. Going in with a nuke you more than cover up for that mile.

Raw power is meaningless against technique to a degree, but being able to dodge everything amounts to nothing when the planet you're standing on explodes and you cant dodge asphyxiation.

There are technicalities on both sides, but it purely depends on Beerus' level of strength, which, the strength discussion thread proves that is still loosely defined.

I like to think that Beerus is currently still strong and fast enough that UI Goku can still be taken down by him. He has the technique, now he needs to focus on raising his base, as Whis has been instructing him to do with no mind of him obtaining UI so early on. I hope that's where we lead, Goku improvign his baseline power and learning to master UI properly, the same way him and Gohan did with SSJ.

Nuke is the final raw power, Ui is the best sniper (tech) ever. Who will win? In fact the whole DB saga is about overpowered people and the struggle to defeat them using just techs.
Techs look always a bit less efficient than raw destructive power, until they win by adding willpower and morale (with just an exception, belonging to another timeline anyway...).
So, the sniper alone doesn't win, you should add the character behind it.

Hey, I probably said something correct!

Okay so i had a bit of a think and we're completely ignoring another important aspect to this analogy: location

I also need to make a small amendment to this, both of our characters are now equipped with sniper rifles with explosive rounds, as we now accept that user skill will come into play, and we know both has access to sniping and explosions in their skill tree so it comes down to individual use.

What we need to look at it where they are, if one is in a better defended location than the other the point is moot, but as far is we know they both have pretty high defences, but we dont know the scale in comparison to each other. That leaves the possibility that our boy Goku could get a shot off fast and efficient and it might take Beerus down or it could just bounce right off him, meanwhile Beerus could just pop off a first shot and destroy everything or not have time to or even the ability to break through Goku's moving fortress or whatever they would be in.

We need to know the scale of power now, because we can only guess, whilst we know the skill with the gun, we dont know how the power or defensive capabilities compare.

Honestly i kinda lost what the conversation was about and just really enjoyed talking about an explosive sniper fight at this point.

[BWri]

Jiren doesn’t have any skill. He’s just “strong”.

Now Vegito, Perfect Cell, Master Roshi, and Mr. Popo all have incredible skill! I guess Piccolo would be up there too, as is 17.

Humm.. I don’t think you can reduce him to that. He seems to be incredibly aware of his surroundings, given how he reacts to Hit’s time skip and Ultra Instinct attacks. It’s only that his fighting style is focused on physical prowess and combat sense.

I agree. Jiren's not really a one trick pony. He has shown some versatility and technique but seems to prefer the straitforward "karate" type approach. And he is a quick adapter.

For me, the best pure martial artists in the show are:
1. Whis/Vados - Obviously
2. Goku - 'cuz Goku
3. Roshi - Prototyped UI on his own without any training from Whis (in less time than Beerus has seemingly had access to it)
4. Beerus - Fantastic fighter with a great master.
5. Vegeta - Whis is probably the best trainer in the universe and has forced Vegeta to focus on skill. While the Yardrat training has helped Vegeta tap into his more spiritual side, which is the soul of the martial arts. This combination basically leapfrogs over what the other Earthlings have done.

Grand Priest is likely at the true apex since I believe he trained his kids.

In DBZ:
1. Goku/Roshi
2. Tien
3. Kaio/Piccolo/Kami
4. Popo
5. Karin/Tsuru-Sennin

[JulieYBM]

I have always imagined Beers reaching Migatte no Goku'i as a response to needing to battle Gokuu again. The technique is not unbeatable, it it merely a mastering of one's self. That Beers still needs to learn something to better himself is a pretty common attribute of the series.