Compared to Super's Version of Goku, He was More Ruthless as a Kid

[omaro34]

I've been watching my favourite series of the franchise lately, the original Dragonball. And I forgot how ruthless Kid Goku was in comparison to modern Goku as an adult. He killed or tried to kill a decent number of his opponents, and this is despite some of these bad guys trying to escape.

1) Tambourine (Tambourine tries to flee at the end and Goku uses his power pole catch up and kill him)
2) Tao Pai Pai (He didn't kill Tao but he certainly had the intent).
3) King Piccolo
4) Many soldiers in the RRA
5) Staff Officer Black (I distinctly remember the guy tried to escape when he had no chance and Goku demolished him)
6) Captain Yellow (Goku saved Upa and punched this guy off his helicopter to fall to his death)

Super's version of our main protagonist would have handled these battles differently strength aside. Sure, you can say Goku's tendencies to spare bad guys began way before Dragonball Super which is true, but Super's version of Goku is worse because he has loads of experience under his belt that he should definitely know better as a character that some guys like Moro have no redeeming qualities.

What happened to Goku that when he became an adult he became too naive and forgiving?

[Matches Malone]

What happened to Goku that when he became an adult he became too naive and forgiving?

Bad writing. The staff currently handling Super are essentially having him make mistakes he'd never make before.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I thought that Kami taught him mercy during their training. Or was that just a fan theory?

Anyway it's not a Super thing. He showed mercy to Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, etc.

[SupremeKai25]

My main complaint is that he makes very weird choices on which enemies to spare. He decides to spare Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza, Moro, all of which are despicable monsters... but then he decides NOT to spare Zamasu and Cell, who were easily the most redeemable villains. This is because Zamasu was the only villain who genuinely wanted peace (thus his goals aligned with the Z Fighters, albeit in a twisted way), while Cell was part Goku in a way, he had his same love for fighting and his same dedication to grow stronger through rigorous training and battle... But then Goku never even tries to offer them the chance to turn back, and in fact Goku actually tries to erase Fused Zamasu from existence (he wouldn't even have the chance to reincarnate like Buu), while he urges Gohan to destroy Cell.

So really I don't understand who, in Goku's special mind, is worthy of redemption and who isn't. Where does he draw the line between a redeemable villain and an irredeemable monster?

[Cipher]

Bad writing. The staff currently handling Super are essentially having him make mistakes he'd never make before.

Except when he spared Piccolo, spared Vegeta, let Freeza power up then attempted to spare him, then did spare him in “F”?

Ex-... except those times?

[Matches Malone]

Except when he spared Piccolo, spared Vegeta, let Freeza power up then attempted to spare him, then did spare him in “F”?

Ex-... except those times?

Vegeta was someone he could handle, while Freeza powered up on a dying planet, so no one was at risk. I agree with you on RF, it was also terrible writing.

[LoganForkHands73]

My main complaint is that he makes very weird choices on which enemies to spare. He decides to spare Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza, Moro, all of which are despicable monsters... but then he decides NOT to spare Zamasu and Cell, who were easily the most redeemable villains. This is because Zamasu was the only villain who genuinely wanted peace (thus his goals aligned with the Z Fighters, albeit in a twisted way), while Cell was part Goku in a way, he had his same love for fighting and his same dedication to grow stronger through rigorous training and battle... But then Goku never even tries to offer them the chance to turn back, and in fact Goku actually tries to erase Fused Zamasu from existence (he wouldn't even have the chance to reincarnate like Buu), while he urges Gohan to destroy Cell.

So really I don't understand who, in Goku's special mind, is worthy of redemption and who isn't. Where does he draw the line between a redeemable villain and an irredeemable monster?

Not to get into yet another debate about the ethics of Zamasu, but his goals didn't align with the Z-Warriors in the slightest.

With Cell, Goku did give him a Senzu as a form of sporting mercy, exactly like with Moro, but it would have been Gohan's prerogative to kill him or not. It's important to consider the context in both of these cases, as both Cell and Zamasu were never directly defeated or put on the backfoot by Goku, so Goku himself was never in a position to spare them. If Goku had been in Gohan's position, I'm sure he would have shown mercy to Cell, but he was ultimately stuck being useless on the sidelines like the rest of the Z-Warriors in that instance. It's easier to yell "what are you doing, just kill him already" from the bleachers when you're not the one fighting yourself.

Even with Zamasu, Goku could have been inclined to spare him if he had him at his mercy, not least because Goku was especially "special" throughout that entire arc. But in any case, I doubt there's anything Goku could have said to actually reason with Zamasu's insane ideology.

[SupremeKai25]

Not to get into yet another debate about the ethics of Zamasu, but his goals didn't align with the Z-Warriors in the slightest.

Oh right my bad, I forgot that they don't care about peace. The rest of the universe could be going to hell and they wouldn't care so long as their pathetic little world is not threatened.

[LoganForkHands73]

Not to get into yet another debate about the ethics of Zamasu, but his goals didn't align with the Z-Warriors in the slightest.

Oh right my bad, I forgot that they don't care about peace. The rest of the universe could be going to hell and they wouldn't care so long as their pathetic little world is not threatened.

They do care about peace, but they also enjoy being alive.

[FortuneSSJ]

What happened to Goku that when he became an adult he became too naive and forgiving?

He was always naive. Became forgiving when he grew up is part of his character development.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Not to get into yet another debate about the ethics of Zamasu, but his goals didn't align with the Z-Warriors in the slightest.

Oh right my bad, I forgot that they don't care about peace. The rest of the universe could be going to hell and they wouldn't care so long as their pathetic little world is not threatened.

Yeah, Zamasu wanted to achieve 'peace' by killing everyone other them himself. I suppose that's technically 'peace', just like killing a patient is technically a 'cure' for a disease.

[SupremeKai25]

Not to get into yet another debate about the ethics of Zamasu, but his goals didn't align with the Z-Warriors in the slightest.

Oh right my bad, I forgot that they don't care about peace. The rest of the universe could be going to hell and they wouldn't care so long as their pathetic little world is not threatened.

Yeah, Zamasu wanted to achieve 'peace' by killing everyone other them himself. I suppose that's technically 'peace', just like killing a patient is technically a 'cure' for a disease.

Still a vastly more complex motivation than every villain that Goku has tried to redeem, Moro included.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

Except when he spared Piccolo, spared Vegeta, let Freeza power up then attempted to spare him, then did spare him in “F”?

Ex-... except those times?

Vegeta was someone he could handle, while Freeza powered up on a dying planet, so no one was at risk. I agree with you on RF, it was also terrible writing.

Negative lad, at the time he spared Vegeta, he could not "handle him". Shit the only reason he survived that initial fight with Vegeta is because he was given help from his friends/allies. Thats not an opinion, that's a fact.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Bad writing.

Which began with Z not Super. He had no qualms with killing nobody Red Ribbon Army soldiers but then suddenly had a conscience when it came to killing Vegeta who was responsible for most his friends deaths, the Ginyu Force who crippled his friends, Ginyu who almost killed him, Frieza who killed his best friend and more.

But then he seemingly has no such issue with killing Yakon, a beast who just wants to eat and did no last damage to any of his friends at all and was of no real threat.

Will kill a human soldier, won't kill a Galactic Tyrant, will kill a hungry beast.

Always been bad writing.

[Skar]

I had this comment in the DB manga thread but it was when chapter 64 was released so it was lost in the comments...or maybe it was dumb so no one wanted to reply .

I could be wrong since this is only my interpretation of Goku's development. Goku was more willing to kill in DB like he when he wiped out most of the RR Army and King Piccolo's sons despite many of them being weaker than him. I think he became more merciful after training with Kami since he was willing to let Nappa and the Ginyu Force live. He also showed Freeza mercy after he accidentally sliced himself in half. He spared Piccolo and Vegeta because he wanted to fight them again but also because he didn't want Kami to die as well and Vegeta was retreating from the battle.

Goku told Trunks he was going to kill Freeza and Cold had Trunks not intervened and we know he successfully did so in the future timeline. That might've been a turning point for Goku or a "I'm getting too old for this" moment and he realized some people are too evil to let live which is why he encouraged Gohan to kill Cell and wanted the kids to finish off Buu. Compare Goku's reaction when Vegeta killed Jeice to when he killed Pui Pui. Goku told Vegeta told Vegeta it wasn't necessarily to kill Jeice but Goku didn't shoe any remorse towards Pui Pui. This also carries over to DBS since he had no problem with trying to kill Zamasu and Goku Black and asked Beerus if Zeno could deal with them.

I think it would be in-character for Goku to consider Moro evil enough to kill at this point. Like I said, I could wrong and Goku spares him anyway. Goku sparing someone and it backfiring has already been done so I hope Toyotaro has something else in mind.

Having read chapter 65 and seeing Goku attempt to kill Moro before he absorbs the planet, I think the senzu scene was even more unnecessary. In most cases, characters make dumb decisions to move the plot forward because the author wrote themselves into a corner. I don't think any author thinks that a character repeating the a mistake could be considered great writing especially if that scene could be removed and nothing changes. I think it only exists for the purpose of a cliffhanger for those draft pages. I Goku offered to spare Moro then decided to kill him when Moro when he refused, Moro could've just reattached his arm and regenerated and the rest of the story happens the same.

[Psajdak]

Red Ribbon Army was a terrorist organization who killed people mercilessly; they may not have been as powerful enemy as those who came after, but they were just as bad nonetheless.

[Lionel]

The assumption I use to rationalise this seeming discrepancy in attitude is the age and cognitive development of Goku throughout most of Dragon Ball. At the time he was a culturally ignorant child who barely held any comprehension of what a female was. Still to this day it's as though Toriyama chooses to play to this puerile innocence of Goku's like it's humorous condition we should be laughing with him about. Getting back to the matter of Goku's Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde conduct towards the matter of killing, though -- it may have been a combination of Kami's infuence in tandem with his own mind developing enough to appreciate the gravity of taking another's life. Regardless of what they may have done, extinguishing that fire isn't something that should be done in jest.

I admit that the circumstance of Goku encouraging or at least being complicit in the deaths of Cell, Pui Pui, and Yakon does throw a wrench into this idea. What was the condition that prompted Goku to withhold the offer of mercy from them?

[LoganForkHands73]

I admit that the circumstance of Goku encouraging or at least being complicit in the deaths of Cell, Pui Pui, and Yakon does throw a wrench into this idea. What was the condition that prompted Goku to withhold the offer of mercy from them?

Context is key with those three. He wasn't the one pulling the trigger on Cell or Pui Pui. By the time Cell was at a point of helplessness, Gohan was fighting him and Goku was simply egging him on from the sidelines with the others which is easier than doing the deed yourself, probably because Piccolo made him realise his mistake. With Pui Pui, Goku was more interested in seeing Vegeta's power and he must've come to terms with the fact that Vegeta doesn't spare enemies. Seeing as how Vegeta was in a particularly bad mood, he probably didn't want to provoke him further.

Yakon's death was his own fault. The greedy fuck could've just shut his mouth.

[Skar]

Context is key with those three. He wasn't the one pulling the trigger on Cell or Pui Pui. By the time Cell was at a point of helplessness, Gohan was fighting him and Goku was simply egging him on from the sidelines with the others which is easier than doing the deed yourself, probably because Piccolo made him realise his mistake. With Pui Pui, Goku was more interested in seeing Vegeta's power and he must've come to terms with the fact that Vegeta doesn't spare enemies. Seeing as how Vegeta was in a particularly bad mood, he probably didn't want to provoke him further.

Yakon's death was his own fault. The greedy fuck could've just shut his mouth.

To be fair, Goku attempted to kill Cell with the Instant Kamehameha. I don't think Goku was expecting him to regenerate his entire upper half there.

Pui Pui was in the same position as Jeice and a weaker henchmen that Vegeta didn't need to kill. Goku was only upset over Jeice needlessly being killed so I interpreted what happened with Pui Pui as Goku no longer giving a shit.

Yakon technically killed himself but Goku initially went SSJ unaware that Yakon could absorb his light. Goku knew Yakon had to die so they could advance to the next stage so the intent was to kill him one way or another.

[LoganForkHands73]

Context is key with those three. He wasn't the one pulling the trigger on Cell or Pui Pui. By the time Cell was at a point of helplessness, Gohan was fighting him and Goku was simply egging him on from the sidelines with the others which is easier than doing the deed yourself, probably because Piccolo made him realise his mistake. With Pui Pui, Goku was more interested in seeing Vegeta's power and he must've come to terms with the fact that Vegeta doesn't spare enemies. Seeing as how Vegeta was in a particularly bad mood, he probably didn't want to provoke him further.

Yakon's death was his own fault. The greedy fuck could've just shut his mouth.

To be fair, Goku attempted to kill Cell with the Instant Kamehameha. I don't think Goku was expecting him to regenerate his entire upper half there.

Pui Pui was in the same position as Jeice and a weaker henchmen that Vegeta didn't need to kill. Goku was only upset over Jeice needlessly being killed so I interpreted what happened with Pui Pui as Goku no longer giving a shit.

Yakon technically killed himself but Goku initially went SSJ unaware that Yakon could absorb his light. Goku knew Yakon had to die so they could advance to the next stage so the intent was to kill him one way or another.

True, but both Cell and Pui Pui were attacked in the heat of the moment if you catch my drift. They weren't grovelling on the floor, or incapacitated, or retreating like the others. Goku would probably respect Pui Pui somewhat for still having the stones to fight back and die on his feet even after he was clearly outmatched. In any case, he didn't have anything to say either way about Pui Pui's death, which Vegeta caused. I suppose Pui Pui really is that insignificant, lol. The Ginyus were all either incapacitated or retreating, and Goku seemed to feel a level of responsibility since they were his opponents and Vegeta just sniped the kills.

From an out-of-universe perspective, Yakon is meant to be seen as just a dumb monster who doesn't even count as a person, let alone a worthy opponent. Goku probably perceives him in the same way, it would be like feeling bad for all the giant fish he's killed for food. Either way, I don't think Goku can truly be held accountable for his death, he just outsmarted him and let the brute feed himself to death. Even if his intention was to see him die, he did it in a way he could morally justify.