Missing Frames in Japanese Dragon Boxes?

[mh2207]

Hello DragonBall Experts

I am a DB Fan from Germany who recently bought the japanese Dragon Box.
As I was comparing the DBox with the German DVD Release (No Reason in particular), I noticed that Episode 3 of DBZ on the Japanese DBox is missing some Frames at the Beginning of the Recap.


DBox 1st Frame after OP

German Box 2nd Frame after OP (Goku moves into the picture)

I dont think it is distracting or a big deal, but I wonder how this came to be. I am not too knowledgable about how the remastering process on the DBox was done, but I would have expected every Frame to be present.
Or is this just a weird edit of the german Box? What is the case for the orange bricks or NA Dbox?

Sorry if this is common knowledge, but the search function did not show any thread that discussed this.
Thank you

[mh2207]

Just checked the orange bricks.
Like the German release it starts with goku moving into the picture.

So I guess this really is a case where the (Japanese) DragonBox cut some frames for whatever reason.

[Big Boss]

Interesting. I wonder if this is one of the reasons why the DBOX has slightly off-sync audio compared to other releases (or was it the broadcast audio?). Hopefully some more knowledgeable members can give their thoughts about this.

[mh2207]

I would also be interested in knowing if the Funis DBox is also missing these frames. Iirc they are based off the same master or am I wrong?

[Robo4900]

I know the Japanese DBoxes do seem to cut some frames from the beginning and/or end of a section (OP, recap, part A, part B, preview, ED), but I've never looked at this in detail myself.

One instance I'm aware of is the recap of Z episode 123; a few frames from the beginning are definitely missing, even though those frames are present on the original Funi DVD singles (I think), Toonami UK airings (of the Westwood dub), and I think maybe the Funi DBoxes (not certain, but I think so).

I would also be interested in knowing if the Funis DBox is also missing these frames. Iirc they are based off the same master or am I wrong?

I think Funi was given the finished DBox video masters, but not the finished DVDs. Funimation's version uses slightly more footage from the very beginning and end of some segments (slightly more dead air at the beginning of ED 1, for instance), but for some reason the top scanline is cut off on Funi's version, and IIRC the black level is slightly too high.

[mh2207]

I know the Japanese DBoxes do seem to cut some frames from the beginning and/or end of a section (OP, recap, part A, part B, preview, ED), but I've never looked at this in detail myself.

One instance I'm aware of is the recap of Z episode 123; a few frames from the beginning are definitely missing, even though those frames are present on the original Funi DVD singles (I think), Toonami UK airings (of the Westwood dub), and I think maybe the Funi DBoxes (not certain, but I think so).

I would also be interested in knowing if the Funis DBox is also missing these frames. Iirc they are based off the same master or am I wrong?

I think Funi was given the finished DBox video masters, but not the finished DVDs. Funimation's version uses slightly more footage from the very beginning and end of some segments (slightly more dead air at the beginning of ED 1, for instance), but for some reason the top scanline is cut off on Funi's version, and IIRC the black level is slightly too high.

Very interesting
Thank you for the detailed response.

Now I just wonder how or why this happened. But I guess we can only speculate on that part.

[thejeremymenace]

This is one of the biggest mysteries that I don't know the answer to. I think at some point, after they got the masters finished, they decided to trim further frames for the final DVD, possibly to save space on the disc, and the least noticeable place to do it would of course be the mostly still frames at the eyecatches and the beginning/ending of the episodes. Then for Funi's release I presume that they just put whatever Toei gave them onto a disc, including the additional frames that were cut from the JP box.

Interesting. I wonder if this is one of the reasons why the DBOX has slightly off-sync audio compared to other releases (or was it the broadcast audio?). Hopefully some more knowledgeable members can give their thoughts about this.

AFAIK, the audio sync is the same among DBox releases.

I would also be interested in knowing if the Funis DBox is also missing these frames. Iirc they are based off the same master or am I wrong?

The Funi box has more frames than the Japanese box, i.e. they are presumably the same as the German ones in OP.

For reference, here's a full list of the frame discrepancies between R2 and R1 DBox, starting at the "DBoxZ" key:
https://github.com/gravitypriest/dragon ... json#L2149

[TheBlackPaladin]

If I recall correctly, one of the proposed explanations for the so-teeny-tiny-most-people-won't-notice-it color differences between the R1 and R2 Dragon Boxes is that, while both of the video formats are NTSC, NTSC-J (the R2 box's format) transmits video signals in a slightly different manner to the hardware than NTSC-US (the R1 box's format).

[mh2207]

This is one of the biggest mysteries that I don't know the answer to. I think at some point, after they got the masters finished, they decided to trim further frames for the final DVD, possibly to save space on the disc, and the least noticeable place to do it would of course be the mostly still frames at the eyecatches and the beginning/ending of the episodes. Then for Funi's release I presume that they just put whatever Toei gave them onto a disc, including the additional frames that were cut from the JP box.

Is it possible that the removal of sponsor messages has something to do with it? As in, they were part of the master and were cut out before they printed the DVD?

On the other hand I don't think there were any after eye catchers...

I'm having a hard time believing they really had to cut frames to save disc space, but I don't have any better ideas and don't know too much about the production...

Thanks for the link! I didn't know there were so many differences

If I recall correctly, one of the proposed explanations for the so-teeny-tiny-most-people-won't-notice-it color differences between the R1 and R2 Dragon Boxes is that, while both of the video formats are NTSC, NTSC-J (the R2 box's format) transmits video signals in a slightly different manner to the hardware than NTSC-US (the R1 box's format).

But it would not have any effect on the frame count would it? I know PAL conversion causes a lot of trouble (just look at the German screenshot) and affects the frames per second. But I don't know about NTSC-J - > NTSC-U

[TheBlackPaladin]

You're right, it wouldn't make a difference in terms of frame count, no. Just colors (possibly).

[thejeremymenace]

I'm having a hard time believing they really had to cut frames to save disc space, but I don't have any better ideas and don't know too much about the production...

For what it's worth, the JP Dragon Box has an extremely high bitrate and takes up almost the entirety of a dual-layer DVD. The OP video on each disc is actually reused for each episode because otherwise it'd be too big to fit 6 full episodes on a disc.

As for cutting sponsor messages, I don't believe those would be on their episode film masters, rather most likely added when they bounced it to tape for broadcast.

[TheBlackPaladin]

As for cutting sponsor messages, I don't believe those would be on their episode film masters, rather most likely added when they bounced it to tape for broadcast.

Not to mention there'd probably be some legal issues about including company names on home video. Not legal issues as in "it couldn't be done," just legal issues as in it couldn't be done without payments to the companies that would add up after a while to the point of not being worth it.

That said, I do know of a few anime home video releases in the US where they would....kinda/not really include sponsor messages. Basically, after the OP played, it would show the artwork still image that the sponsor logos would be overlayed on, but without any of the company logos or sponsor voice-over. The Naruto DVDs did this, and I think a few others.

[mh2207]

For what it's worth, the JP Dragon Box has an extremely high bitrate and takes up almost the entirety of a dual-layer DVD. The OP video on each disc is actually reused for each episode because otherwise it'd be too big to fit 6 full episodes on a disc.

Whoa, thats news to me .
I read about the higher Bitrate but not about reusing the opening...
See, I would have expected to tone down the Bitrate a bit instead of cutting frames but what do I know

Edit: is this also the case for eye catchers and endings? Because then replacing the episodes OP, Ed & Catchers could also cause if frame loss if it isn't done carefully enough couldn't it?

That said, I do know of a few anime home video releases in the US where they would....kinda/not really include sponsor messages. Basically, after the OP played, it would show the artwork still image that the sponsor logos would be overlayed on, but without any of the company logos or sponsor voice-over. The Naruto DVDs did this, and I think a few others.

The German DVDs of DragonBall Gt contain these sponsor cards in the same fashion. That's why I came up with the idea in the first place. But those are very mysterious to me in their own way.

But yeah I also think it's rather unlike for it to be the reason. Just wanted to throw the idea out there.

So I guess removal to save disc space is still the most plausible explanation.

Thank you all for your contributions.

[DrBriefsCat]

If I recall correctly, one of the proposed explanations for the so-teeny-tiny-most-people-won't-notice-it color differences between the R1 and R2 Dragon Boxes is that, while both of the video formats are NTSC, NTSC-J (the R2 box's format) transmits video signals in a slightly different manner to the hardware than NTSC-US (the R1 box's format).

NTSC-J only applied to analog and not digital. I've played Japanese-market DVDs on American equipment and they often don't look much different from American releases of the same thing. However, my VHS tapes from Japan do look noticeably darker by comparison.

If there is a brightness difference between the Dragon Boxes, it may have something to do with the settings used by the local distributor before making the discs. American discs usually don't use the same exact encodes as a Japanese-market disc.

[kei17]

I noticed this when I was editing the Level Set footage. Probably they simply messed up the editing.

[thejeremymenace]

Edit: is this also the case for eye catchers and endings? Because then replacing the episodes OP, Ed & Catchers could also cause if frame loss if it isn't done carefully enough couldn't it?

Not the case. Basically an example disc is laid out like this. from a VOB ID perspective:

VID 1: episode 1 (no opening)
VID 2: opening
VID 3: episode 2 (no opening)
VID 4: episode 3 (no opening)
VID 5: episode 4 (no opening)
VID 6: episode 5 (no opening)
VID 7: episode 6 (no opening)

And then the program chains in the DVD logic tell the player to play the opening before each episode.

[LostTimeLord]

NTSC-J only applied to analog and not digital. I've played Japanese-market DVDs on American equipment and they often don't look much different from American releases of the same thing.

Even if it's no longer necessary, it could be that Funi have simply never removed the 'change analogue black levels' step from their default process of treating footage. AIUI they still make their Blu-ray releases brighter as well, for no logical reason.