Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

[DragonBallFoodie]

In general, the superhero comics of the USA and the action manga of Japan have conflicting values (killing, mercy, suppression of evil, etc). And despite this, Dragon Ball (especially Z) was a smash hit in the West.

The obvious factors include it being one of the earliest shonen animes to come to the West (timing), and its sheer entertainment factor (intense action, memorable characters). Looking deeper, the dub did things differently from the original manga/Japanese anime, but that also may have appealed to Western audiences and raised its popularity (sorry purists who hate the dub).

For instance: Goku stopped Krillin from killing Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. The original version was that Goku wanted him alive because he was a worthy opponent to fight again and again; the dub makes Goku offer mercy, to be the better person than the killer Vegeta was. Both work out satisfactorily in my opinion, though the latter is tailored to Western morality. It’s debatable as to whether this rewrite betrays Toriyama’s work or is valid enough.

Another plot element to consider: as DBZ aired before DB in the West, the Superman-based element of Goku as an infant alien raised on Earth makes more resonance with the audiences. Maybe if DB had aired first it may have earned success too, but DBZ’s twist at the beginning has more appeal that works in its favor.


Can anyone think of other plots in the English dub that contributed to Dragon Ball Z becoming mega-popular in the West?

[jjgp1112]

I really think those changes are superficial in the grand scheme of things - what drew a lot of fans in wasn't necessarily the more Westernized themes, but how different it was from anything else that was airing in that demographic and the level of violence. I know at least that's what stood out to me, and I was a basic kid with basic kid interests. But you see this series and you instantly know it's of an asian kung-fu variety within 5 seconds of looking at it and you're just sucked in through there.

[MasenkoHA]

Dragon Ball z would have been popular in the US/Canada/Australia/UK even with a faithful dub ala the Latin American dub.

I mean shit we have Dead Zone and World Strongest and Dragon Ball Kai as proof of a faithful dub of Z doing well with kids.

[Cure Dragon 255]

In general, the superhero comics of the USA and the action manga of Japan have conflicting values (killing, mercy, suppression of evil, etc). And despite this, Dragon Ball (especially Z) was a smash hit in the West.

The obvious factors include it being one of the earliest shonen animes to come to the West (timing), and its sheer entertainment factor (intense action, memorable characters). Looking deeper, the dub did things differently from the original manga/Japanese anime, but that also may have appealed to Western audiences and raised its popularity (sorry purists who hate the dub).

For instance: Goku stopped Krillin from killing Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. The original version was that Goku wanted him alive because he was a worthy opponent to fight again and again; the dub makes Goku offer mercy, to be the better person than the killer Vegeta was. Both work out satisfactorily in my opinion, though the latter is tailored to Western morality. It’s debatable as to whether this rewrite betrays Toriyama’s work or is valid enough.

Another plot element to consider: as DBZ aired before DB in the West, the Superman-based element of Goku as an infant alien raised on Earth makes more resonance with the audiences. Maybe if DB had aired first it may have earned success too, but DBZ’s twist at the beginning has more appeal that works in its favor.


Can anyone think of other plots in the English dub that contributed to Dragon Ball Z becoming mega-popular in the West?

First of all I love all Dragon Ball fans. I wanted to make a thread like this. I really dont think the changes were needed to make it a success... But I still love all Dragon Ball fans. I wont be a gatekeepy jerk and say they are lesser because of the way they were introduced to the series and same for the way they enjoy it. They should have the gosh darned freedom to enjoy the series any way they want.

[precita]

You have to keep in mind what was airing in the west by the late 90's or early 2000's.

Most cartoons were aimed at kids, and the most "adult" cartoon was Batman: TAS, which was still limited by the Fox censors as to what they were allowed to show (and this continued when it moved to WB). Dragon Ball Z was about action and violence, and most of all stakes. Characters die, and it was serialized.

Almost every show back then had one-off stories with no continuing storylines. There was nothing like it at the time.

[WittyUsername]

Almost every show back then had one-off stories with no continuing storylines. There was nothing like it at the time.

Not exactly. There actually were a number of superhero cartoons at the time that had continuous storylines, although Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t really one of them. I think it was more the emphasis on fighting that caught people’s attention when it came to DBZ. A lot of American cartoons had action, but most of them didn’t put nearly as much emphasis on wall-to-wall combat as DBZ.

[precita]

If we're speaking during the 90's, not counting other anime, I can't really think of any.

Ninja Turtles, Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, 90's Spiderman, X-men, etc. all had some continuity obviously, but they were still largely episodic. That's because the episodes aired on TV all out of order and kids could jump in at any time and not be "confused" about what was going on. I know when I was a kid I never saw these shows in order, it was just whatever random ep was airing on TV at the time.

Cartoons didn't start to get more serialized till the early/mid 2000's.

[ABED]

Almost every show back then had one-off stories with no continuing storylines. There was nothing like it at the time.

Not exactly. There actually were a number of superhero cartoons at the time that had continuous storylines, although Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t really one of them. I think it was more the emphasis on fighting that caught people’s attention when it came to DBZ. A lot of American cartoons had action, but most of them didn’t put nearly as much emphasis on wall-to-wall combat as DBZ.

In the 90s that level of serialization in American TV was unheard of outside of soaps. The only example I can think of that was that serialized was X-Men and that's only the first few seasons which weren't that long. Most continuing storylines were mini arcs that lasted a few episodes. But by and large, US TV in general was very episodic so it could be watched in syndication and people could jump in at any time.

[MasenkoHA]

Almost every show back then had one-off stories with no continuing storylines. There was nothing like it at the time.

Not exactly. There actually were a number of superhero cartoons at the time that had continuous storylines, although Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t really one of them. I think it was more the emphasis on fighting that caught people’s attention when it came to DBZ. A lot of American cartoons had action, but most of them didn’t put nearly as much emphasis on wall-to-wall combat as DBZ.

Did they though? I know Spider-man TAS liked to pretend it did a continuous storyline with its [Arc name chapter x] structure but it was honestly pretty episodic in execution. Certainly nothing remotely like Dragon Ball Z’s serialization. I don’t recall Superman TAS doing any real overarching storyline either.


And yes Batman TAS was super episodic to the point the Fox Kids airdates are completely different from the production/dvd order and it only barely causes any problems (namely just with Selina Kyle and which side of the law she was currently on)

But yeah I can’t think of any other kids show from the 90s/early 2000s that was as serialized as Dragon Ball Z

[WittyUsername]

Almost every show back then had one-off stories with no continuing storylines. There was nothing like it at the time.

Not exactly. There actually were a number of superhero cartoons at the time that had continuous storylines, although Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t really one of them. I think it was more the emphasis on fighting that caught people’s attention when it came to DBZ. A lot of American cartoons had action, but most of them didn’t put nearly as much emphasis on wall-to-wall combat as DBZ.

Did they though? I know Spider-man TAS liked to pretend it did a continuous storyline with its [Arc name chapter x] structure but it was honestly pretty episodic in execution. Certainly nothing remotely like Dragon Ball Z’s serialization. I don’t recall Superman TAS doing any real overarching storyline either.


And yes Batman TAS was super episodic to the point the Fox Kids airdates are completely different from the production/dvd order and it only barely causes any problems (namely just with Selina Kyle and which side of the law she was currently on)

But yeah I can’t think of any other kids show from the 90s/early 2000s that was as serialized as Dragon Ball Z

There was definitely nothing in American television that was serialized to the extent of DBZ (and as far as I know, there still isn’t when it comes to children’s cartoons), but I don’t know if I believe that the serialized structure of DBZ was a massive selling point.

[MasenkoHA]

There was definitely nothing in American television that was serialized to the extent of DBZ (and as far as I know, there still isn’t when it comes to children’s cartoons), but I don’t know if I believe that the serialized structure of DBZ was a massive selling point.

I’d say it was. Not the only big selling point. But a major one. Even the heavily sanitized first two seasons apparently did well outside of its target demographic.

[ABED]

Not exactly. There actually were a number of superhero cartoons at the time that had continuous storylines, although Batman: The Animated Series wasn’t really one of them. I think it was more the emphasis on fighting that caught people’s attention when it came to DBZ. A lot of American cartoons had action, but most of them didn’t put nearly as much emphasis on wall-to-wall combat as DBZ.

Did they though? I know Spider-man TAS liked to pretend it did a continuous storyline with its [Arc name chapter x] structure but it was honestly pretty episodic in execution. Certainly nothing remotely like Dragon Ball Z’s serialization. I don’t recall Superman TAS doing any real overarching storyline either.


And yes Batman TAS was super episodic to the point the Fox Kids airdates are completely different from the production/dvd order and it only barely causes any problems (namely just with Selina Kyle and which side of the law she was currently on)

But yeah I can’t think of any other kids show from the 90s/early 2000s that was as serialized as Dragon Ball Z

There was definitely nothing in American television that was serialized to the extent of DBZ (and as far as I know, there still isn’t when it comes to children’s cartoons), but I don’t know if I believe that the serialized structure of DBZ was a massive selling point.

I do think it is. People love being pulled into a story. I would think the streaming era and the popularity of something like 24 would be proof enough that people love serialization. And when I was 7, Power Rangers was first airing, and the most significant storyline was a story that took place over 5 episodes. I vividly recall loving being pulled into that story as it unfolded over the course of a week.

[JulieYBM]

Lord, remembering that far back is hard but I do recall being quite the giddy little girl over the serialized nature of Dragon Ball back then. It reminded me a lot of General Hospital, which I got into around the same time.

[Polyphase Avatron]

For instance: Goku stopped Krillin from killing Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. The original version was that Goku wanted him alive because he was a worthy opponent to fight again and again; the dub makes Goku offer mercy, to be the better person than the killer Vegeta was. Both work out satisfactorily in my opinion, though the latter is tailored to Western morality.

I don't think this is really a matter of 'western' vs. 'eastern' morality. Goku is a battle junkie who does very questionable things in pursuit of a good fight, but that's just the way his character is (and Saiyan characters in general). It's not like it's some cultural standard that the majority of Japanese people would agree is a moral way to think and act. In fact it's often presented as a character flaw in-universe.

[ABED]

Sure, it's seen as a flaw but not one that's held against him.

[MasenkoHA]

Also, it needs to be said people in the West clearly respond way more to Goku’s “always working to improve himself” quality than his stupid moralizing speeches about justice and righteousness that Funimation stuck in his mouth.


Also Vegeta was a way more popular character with Toonami audiences. So I don’t see how making Goku more of a boy scout would make him more endearing to American audiences.

[MyVisionity]

Another thing about serialized storytelling is that it makes it so the viewer wants to tune in every single episode so they don't miss anything. What would be casual viewing becomes appointment viewing for many. I know that as a kid I was either in front of the television at a specific scheduled time and/or I had the VCR timer already set.

[Kid Buu]

I really think those changes are superficial in the grand scheme of things - what drew a lot of fans in wasn't necessarily the more Westernized themes, but how different it was from anything else that was airing in that demographic and the level of violence. I know at least that's what stood out to me, and I was a basic kid with basic kid interests. But you see this series and you instantly know it's of an asian kung-fu variety within 5 seconds of looking at it and you're just sucked in through there.

Pretty much.

Compared to other cartoons at the time, like Powerpuff Girls, Dragon Ball just felt surreal.

Then I ventured into other anime and the novelty wore off, but somehow I'm still on this forum.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Thank you all for your comments.

Also, it needs to be said people in the West clearly respond way more to Goku’s “always working to improve himself” quality than his stupid moralizing speeches about justice and righteousness that Funimation stuck in his mouth.

Goku isn't the traditional hero of justice that both the West and East set up, he's looser and more lax than that. After all, he was raised in the wilderness by a guardian who could only stay a few years. But every hero has a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. The dub makes it somewhat stronger than the Japanese version, but is it inaccurate or unfaithful?

Also Vegeta was a way more popular character with Toonami audiences. So I don’t see how making Goku more of a boy scout would make him more endearing to American audiences.

Not endearing to a massive level, but enough to make him identifiable to popular opinion.

And Vegeta as an anti-hero and rival is perennially popular.

[MasenkoHA]

The dub makes it somewhat stronger than the Japanese version, but is it inaccurate or unfaithful?

Yes, because the English dub has Goku saying crap that’s just plain out of character. Sure Toei makes Goku was more heroic than what Toriyama intended but he still acts like a kung fu hick. He’s not lecturing villains about the sword of injustice and how their evil deeds are like a noose around their necks.

Not endearing to a massive level, but enough to make him identifiable to popular opinion.

But that’s just it. American fans DO NOT identify with Goku- The Japanese Silver Age Superman. They identify with Goku the guy who is always working to improve himself