Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 86 - DBZ 218-222

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 86 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

And now, DBZ's peak of ratings. It's all downhill from here, folks.

Previous thread: Week 85 (DBZ 213-217)
Next thread: Week 87 (DBZ 223-227)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 371 - Exposed!! The Saiyaman is Son Gohan (DBZ episode 218)
Dub title: Identities Revealed
Originally aired 23rd of February 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 112 - Videl, Worn Ragged — Gohan’s Anger at its Limits!! and Episode 113 - A Creeping Conspiracy! The Target is Gohan
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 106 - Videl, Worn Ragged — Gohan’s Anger at its Limits!!
Written by: Takao Koyama
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Videl has been gravely injured. Gohan gives her some senzu that Goku brought from Karin Tower, and she completely recovers. Gohan’s match with Kaiōshin’s subordinate Kibito then begins. But Gohan, having entered as the Great Saiyaman, has his identity discovered by his classmates, who had come to the tournament. Furthermore, Kibito makes an unexpected request of Gohan: to transform into a Super Saiyan right there.

Anime-only/filler content: Goku's entire diversion between teleporting away to get a senzu and returning, Mr Satan being interviewed, his flashback to fighting Spopovich at the last tournament, and Chichi's thoughts about the Gohan vs Kibito match before it starts.

Episode 372 - A Slithering Conspiracy!! Gohan’s Power is Stolen (DBZ episode 219)
Dub title: Energy Drain
Originally aired 2nd of March 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 113 - A Creeping Conspiracy! The Target is Gohan and Episode 114 - Secrets of the Terrible Majin — The Man Behind the Curtain Appears!!
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 106 - Videl, Worn Ragged — Gohan’s Anger at its Limits!! and Episode 107 - Secrets of the Terrible Majin — The Man Behind the Curtain Appears!!
Written by: Takao Koyama
Episode director: Takahiro Imamura
Animation supervisor: Masahiro Shimanuki

Gohan transforms into a Super Saiyan, just as Kibito asked him to. As he does so, Yamu and Spopovitch see this and suddenly rush in. As Gohan is about to react, for some reason he becomes unable to move. Kaiōshin has paralyzed him. After stealing Gohan’s energy with a energy absorption device, Yamu and Spopovitch fly away. Goku and the others follow after them with the Kaiōshin, and are told the story of the terrifying Majin Boo.

Anime-only/filler content: Chichi trying to get the crowd on Gohan's side, Videl trying to go into the fight to help Gohan and Goku stopping her.

Episode 373 - The Man Behind the Curtain Appears!! The Evil Mage Babidi (DBZ episode 220)
Dub title: The Wizard's Curse
Originally aired 9th of March 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 114 - Secrets of the Terrible Majin — The Man Behind the Curtain Appears!! and Episode 115 - The Heinous Mage Babidi and King of the Underworld Dabra’s Trap
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 107 - Secrets of the Terrible Majin — The Man Behind the Curtain Appears!! and Episode 108 - The Heinous Mage Babidi and King of the Underworld Dabra’s Trap
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Keisuke Masunaga

As Goku is in the middle of pursuing Yamu and Spopovitch, Kaiōshin tells him of the mage Babidi. In order to revive Majin Boo, Babidi manipulated Yamu and Spopovitch to gather energy. Gohan, Videl, and Kibito follow after them, but Videl goes back, unable to keep up with their speed. Gohan and Kibito soon catch up with Goku and the others. They observe as Babidi, together with Dabra, king of the Demon Realm, and the warrior Pui-Pui exterminate Yamu and Spopovitch after obtaining the energy they gathered.

Anime-only/filler content: The brief scene with the pterodactyl, Sharpener and Erasa's shocked reactions to Videl's flying.

Episode 374 - The Awaiting Trap!! A Challenge From the Demon Realm (DBZ episode 221)
Dub title: King of the Demons
Originally aired 16th of March 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 115 - The Heinous Mage Babidi and King of the Underworld Dabra’s Trap; one scene incorporated into Episode 117 - Who is the World’s Greatest?! A Battle Royal Match to Decide!!
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 108 - The Heinous Mage Babidi and King of the Underworld Dabra’s Trap; one scene incorporated into Episode 110 - Who is the World’s Greatest?! A Battle Royal Match to Decide!!
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Yūji Hakamada

Dabra suddenly attacks Goku and the others. Kibito is killed, while Kuririn and Piccolo are turned to stone. In order to restore Kuririn and Piccolo to normal, Goku and co. invade Babidi’s spaceship. Inside the spaceship are battle stages, outfitted to absorb Goku and co.’s energy each time they take damage and use it to revive Majin Boo. Babidi sends Pui-Pui to Stage 1, where Goku and co. are waiting, and Vegeta ends up fighting him.

Anime-only/filler content: Goku and Vegeta attempting to fight Dabra (and missing every attack), Goan and Goten arguing.

Episode 375 - Don’t Toy With Me!! Vegeta Breaks Through the First Fight in a Fury (DBZ episode 222)
Dub title: Vegeta Attacks
Originally aired 23rd of March 1994
International Kai equivalent: Episode 116 - Don’t Underestimate a Super Saiyan! Vegeta and Goku’s Full Throttle Power!; one scene incorporated into Episode 117 - Who is the World’s Greatest?! A Battle Royal Match to Decide!!
Japanese Kai equivalent: Episode 109 - Don’t Underestimate a Super Saiyan! Vegeta and Goku’s Full Throttle Power!; one scene incorporated into Episode 110 - Who is the World’s Greatest?! A Battle Royal Match to Decide!!
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Shingo Ishikawa

Vegeta and Pui-Pui’s battle is overwhelmingly Vegeta’s victory. Unable to simply watch, Babidi uses his magic to change the stage to Planet Zun, a place favorable to Pui-Pui. Planet Zun is where Pui-Pui was raised, and its gravity is ten times that of Earth. But the difference in gravity doesn’t affect Vegeta, who easily defeats Pui-Pui. The hole opens to a lower floor in the spaceship, and Goku and co. head to Stage 2. Babidi sends the demon-beast Yakon to Stage 2.

Anime-only/filler content: Everything at the tournament grounds, Yakon eating two of his guards.

-

Interesting trivia:

• At this point in time in the manga, Vegeta admits why he let Babidi use his magic on him, Boo emerges from his shell and gouges out Dabra's eyes, and Vegeta knocks out Goku so that he can take care of Boo on his own.
• Z episode 218 has the highest Japanese audience share of any Z episode, with 27.5%. It's not the highest ratings share of the entire TV run, however; the TV run peaked with DB episode 47, with a 29.5% audience share; this was the episode where Bulma gives up the micro-band in exchange for Roshi's submarine.
• International Kai episode 113 is the last one until 165 with no Japanese Kai equivalent. From here on out, aside from that one-off entirely-filler episode lifted straight from Z, International and Japanese Kai correspond 1:1.
• In the panel of Videl standing up on her bed, we see a portrait of the original tournament official from back in the 21st Tournament. The presence of the portrait suggests that he's passed away since we last saw him.
• Spopovich and Yamu note that they can't use the ki of Shin or Kibito. This could retroactively been seen as the earliest instance of god ki, a different form of ki that debuted in Battle of Gods.
• The manga never makes use of the new units of ki for the device Yamu and Spopovic use: only the anime does. The unit isn't too helpful for power level debates anyway as there has never been a direct 1:1 comparison between its units and that used by Freeza's Scouters.
• From Z episode 219 onwards (204 in edited numbering), the Westwood/Ocean dub would stop avoiding words directly referring to death. They had presumably done this to keep consistency with the previous edited dubs, which had avoided such words by mandate of Saban following the airing of episodes 1-6 (1-4 in edited numbering), but from this point on they wouldn't bother; Kuririn at one point says "[My wife]'s gonna kill me!", and Z episode 253 (238 in edited numbering) retained its uncut title of "I Kill No More".
• Just before going Super Saiyan, Gohan calls the second form "Super-Super Saiyan", at least in the ViZ translation. This precedes the rather ridiculous "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" from Resurrection 'F' by 23 years. It also precedes Goku giving it the "official" name of Super Saiyan 2 later in the arc.
• Kuririn says that he has to tell his wife what he's up to before leaving to follow Shin. It doesn't occur to Goku or Vegeta to do the same.
• Vegeta says to Goku that fighting him is the only reason he came to the Tournament in the first place. He's forgetting that he agreed to enter BEFORE that when it was just Gohan, before Goku chimed in. Given that this is Vegeta we're talking about though, it's understandable that the chance to fight Goku overshadowed his original reasoning, which lasted for all of five seconds.
• As pointed out by the official, Mr. Satan would have already known Videl could fly had he bothered to attend his daughter's match against Spopovich.
• The ViZ translation of the manga goes with the interesting direction of calling Bibidi and Babidi "warlocks", in contrast to the Funimation dubs which refer to them as "wizards". While the latter is a much more well-known term, warlock is arguably more appropriate since it's a much more negative term and, in the year 1000, was specifically associated with the devil.
• As is famous by now, the pun with the magicians is "Bibidi Bobbidi Boo", which are the magic words used by the fairy godmothers in Cinderella, as made famous by the 1950 Disney movie. The Funimation dubs obscured the pun somewhat (as is their way) by spelling it "Buu", which of course has a direct effect on the spelling of his reincarnation, Oob/Uub.
  • Interestingly, while the Vancouver-based Westwood/Ocean dub of Z followed Funimation's spellings (in the title cards, and presumably the scripts), the subsequent Calgary-based Westwood/Blue Water dub of GT spelled Boo's reincarnation's name as "Oob", in episode titles.
• The second-to-last Full Color manga has Toriyama reveal that Babidi isn't an offspring of Bibidi but more of a doppelganger, similar to Tenshinhan's splitting technique. This apparently reduced the magical power, but when Bibidi died, Babidi gained the full strength of the original.
• Shin compares the original five Kaioshin to Freeza, which may be a subtle allusion as to why he's constantly surprised by the Saiyans: he seems to be unaware of the Androids and Cell, who are themselves many orders of magnitude stronger than Freeza. Their creator Dr. Gero had a similar blind spot, being completely unaware of the trip to Namek.
• With the introduction of Babidi and Dabra, Videl is removed from the Main Characters page of Tankobon #38.
• While waiting for Babidi to exit the spaceship, Gohan sees the family of the farm nearby. Notably, the man has his hand ripped off, but much more gruesomely, the woman has been ripped apart at the torso, with everything below the stomach completely missing and a pool of blood on the ground where her waist ends. Thankfully their boy is simply dead. The anime censored this, and had the woman simply lie dead like the boy, with no visible blood; the family almost just look unconscious. Toei's Full Color manga obscured this by colouring the entrails entirely in blood red, which arguably makes the visual even more graphic.
• In the manga, Spopovich's explosion is very Cell Jr.-like, with visible entrails and even his eyeball visible flying away.
• In the ViZ manga, the minion that Babidi orders to kill Yamu uses another magic-themed name: Pocus, as in "hocus pocus". His original name is surprisingly kept in the Funimation dubs: PuiPui, and in the process they completely miss the point of the name. In his name pun thread, Herms suspected it comes from "Chichin-puipui", a phrase said for when children hurt themselves, similar to "let me kiss it to stop it hurting". It's also used in Ninja and Arabian Nights-themed shows aimed at children, which would tie in with Boo's arabic clothing and his childish demeanour. So, ViZ's choice of name is certainly better than Funi's in that it at least keeps some semblance of the original pun for English-speakers, but it's far from perfect.
• PuiPui's elongated head is another reference to Alien's Xenomorph, but his face also bears a striking resemblance to Frieza's third form.
• The panel of Dabra killing Kibito is a rare look at what the black marking on the top of his head looks like from behind.
• Vegeta compares the journey through Babidi's ship to a video game, which is very apt considering the "tower" format of fighting progressively stronger opponents is associated with Mortal Kombat. The format was also previously used for Goku's ascent of Muscle Tower way back in the Red Ribbon Army arc, and was likely used in several Dragon Ball video games by this point as well.
  • The line also suggests that Vegeta has played a video game before. Incidentally, Toriyama did a short comedic strip showing Vegeta finally defeating Goku... in a SNES game.
  • That strip debuted in July 1993. That means that if they WERE playing a SNES Dragon Ball game, it'd be Super Butoden, which released four months earlier.
• The title page for Chapter 450 is a diagram of Babidi's spaceship showing the layout. Perhaps the most amazing part is that it remained level after 300 years!

Trivia primarily written by KBABZ. Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.

[MasenkoHA]

Enter muscle tower: The boring redux.

[*]From Z episode 219 onwards (204 in edited numbering), the Westwood/Ocean dub would stop avoiding words directly referring to death. They had presumably done this to keep consistency with the previous edited dubs, which had avoided such words by mandate of Saban following the airing of episodes 1-6 (1-4 in edited numbering), but from this point on they wouldn't bother; Kuririn at one point says "[My wife]'s gonna kill me!", and Z episode 253 (238 in edited numbering) retained its uncut title of "I Kill No More".

Is it really consistent though? The Westwood episodes aren’t meant to just present continuity with the Saban era but the in-house Funi dub for edited episodes 54-107 as well. Seems weird to avoid using kill and die when season 3 had used them. (Albeit not that often)

His original name is surprisingly kept in the Funimation dubs: PuiPui, and in the process they completely miss the point of the name. In his name pun thread, Herms suspected it comes from "Chichin-puipui", a phrase said for when children hurt themselves, similar to "let me kiss it to stop it hurting". It's also used in Ninja and Arabian Nights-themed shows aimed at children, which would tie in with Boo's arabic clothing and his childish demeanour. So, ViZ's choice of name is certainly better than Funi's in that it at least keeps some semblance of the original pun for English-speakers, but it's far from perfect.

I’m confused Puipui’s name is left as is by Funimation and that is bad because they shouldn’t have? Should they have called Gohan “Rice” or “Meal” and Bulma “Girls gym shorts”

Dragon Ball video games by this point as well.

• The line also suggests that Vegeta has played a video game before.

Awww now I’m picturing Vegeta taking a brief break from training to play SNES with Trunks.

[Robo4900]

Is it really consistent though? The Westwood episodes aren’t meant to just present continuity with the Saban era but the in-house Funi dub for edited episodes 54-107 as well. Seems weird to avoid using kill and die when season 3 had used them. (Albeit not that often)

It's consistent as far as Ocean's involvement is concerned, and even Funi's in-house edited dub usually avoided use of the word death at first.

I’m confused Puipui’s name is left as is by Funimation and that is bad because they shouldn’t have? Should they have called Gohan “Rice” or “Meal” and Bulma “Girls gym shorts”

You exaggerate, but yes, Bulma should really be called something like Blooma. The name is supposed to be a pun. In subtitles, where the pun is difficult to render in English, you can take the easy way out and just do a TL note, but in a dub, you can't do that. So, the best way is to find a good enough equivalent that gets the point across, even if it's not exact. Nothing comes to mind for Gohan specifically, but another example would be Chichi, who in various translations (such as one of the Spanish versions, I believe) is called Milk (or, the Spanish for milk, for instance). For Bulma specifically, the main reason we don't use a more sensible English version of her name is because Toriyama is bad at English and wrote a really terrible adaptation of her name on her shirt in DB episode 1.

The goal with an English dub is to be as seamless an English translation as possible. You shouldn't have to remember to google everyone's names to get the puns, they should be evident, just as they would be if you understood Japanese and were watching the original.

To put it another way, "Tenkaichi Budokai" is a terrible way to render that name in an English dub, because it's totally meaningless. "World Martial Arts Tournament" does a serviceable job. "PuiPui" means absolutely nothing to English-speakers, but "Pocus" or "Sesame" or any other similar such adaptation do mean something, and it's something pretty close to the original pun.
Given Funimation couldn't even get Butta right, opting for Burter instead, and given other choices like Dabura instead of Dabra, I don't think this was a translation choice so much as it was Funimation just not bothering to think about the best way to adapt a name, as was typical of their attitude at the time.

To put it yet another way, if Funimation had a line of dialogue that they couldn't think of a close enough English equivalent for, they wouldn't just have the English actors say the Japanese dialogue, even in the more modern days where they care about the integrity of the Japanese original. That's what this is akin to, in my view. Even a slightly less extreme version of this, "Piccolo, you are my nakama" would be unacceptable. I don't care how attached you are to the full Japanese usage of the word nakama, it has an English equivalent even though it's not 100% exact, and your target audience doesn't speak Japanese, so just do your job and translate it.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

While waiting for Babidi to exit the spaceship, Gohan sees the family of the farm nearby. Notably, the man has his hand ripped off, but much more gruesomely, the woman has been ripped apart at the torso, with everything below the stomach completely missing and a pool of blood on the ground where her waist ends. Thankfully their boy is simply dead. The anime censored this, and had the woman simply lie dead like the boy, with no visible blood; the family almost just look unconscious. Toei's Full Color manga obscured this by colouring the entrails entirely in blood red, which arguably makes the visual even more graphic.

Interesting, so this is another case where Toei made the anime adaptation less severe than the manga. Much like when Tien got his hand and upper wrist whacked off by Nappa and they had it look less gory (the manga scene is hella bloody as i recall) or when Gohan destroys the Cell Jr's, though at the same time some parts they made more violent than the mange like the hole in Goku's chest after him and Piccolo finish Raditz off when the former uses the Makankosappo which impales both of them.

[MasenkoHA]

So, the best way is to find a good enough equivalent that gets the point across, even if it's not exact

It’s his name though. Who cares if the play on words isn’t going to come across to an English speaker. Your average English speaker isn’t going to get the Saiya is just the syllables for the Japanese word for vegetable switched around. Should Funimation had called Saiyans the Tablevege People?

Your average English speaker would just assume PuiPui is some made up name to sound alien because he is an alien and nothing would be lost.

. Nothing comes to mind for Gohan specifically, but another example would be Chichi, who in various translations (such as one of the Spanish versions, I believe) is called Milk (or, the Spanish for milk, for instance)

She’s called Milk in Spanish versions because Chi Chi is well known Spanish slang for tiddies. It’s not about preserving the pun it’s about not having a character being called the equivalent of Ta-tas.

The goal with an English dub is to be as seamless an English translation as possible. You shouldn't have to remember to google everyone's names to get the puns, they should be evident, just as they would be if you understood Japanese and were watching the original.

I assure you nobody is missing out or losing something by not knowing the meaning behind Pui pui.

To put it another way, "Tenkaichi Budokai" is a terrible way to render that name in an English dub, because it's totally meaningless. "World Martial Arts Tournament" does a serviceable job

Tenkaichi Budokai isn’t a characters name. Giving an English equivalent is actually necessary for it to make sense to English viewers. It’s not equatable to leaving Puipui as is.

. "PuiPui" means absolutely nothing to English-speakers, but "Pocus" or "Sesame" or any other similar such adaptation do mean something, and it's something pretty close to the original pun.

Which is fine because it doesn’t have to mean anything

Given Funimation couldn't even get Butta right, opting for Burter instead, and given other choices like Dabura instead of Dabra, I don't think this was a translation choice so much as it was Funimation just not bothering to think about the best way to adapt a name, as was typical of their attitude at the time.

Of all the reasons to bash Funimation “they left his name as it” just seems to be a big reach just to bash them. Like how dare? I can’t believe they didn’t call Kaio-Ken “King Kai’s Fist! “ or “Lord of the World’s Fist” either

To put it yet another way, if Funimation had a line of dialogue that they couldn't think of a close enough English equivalent for, they wouldn't just have the English actors say the Japanese dialogue, even in the more modern days where they care about the integrity of the Japanese original. That's what this is akin to, in my view. Even a slightly less extreme version of this, "Piccolo, you are my nakama" would be unacceptable. I don't care how attached you are to the full Japanese usage of the word nakama, it has an English equivalent even though it's not 100% exact, and your target audience doesn't speak Japanese, so just do your job and translate it.

In this context nakama isn’t a characters name. Now if a character like a Kaio or something was introduced and named Nakama than Funimation should leave their name as is.

[Robo4900]

It’s his name though.

Immaterial. It carries meaning, it should be translated.

You seem to be under the impression that names are different from dialogue. Why?

Who cares if the play on words isn’t going to come across to an English speaker.

I do, and anyone who cares about a translation actually doing a good job of, y'know, translating a foreign work (literally the entire job being done here) should do. If something carries meaning in the original, it's the translator's job to ensure as much of that meaning is present in the translation as is feasible.

"It's just a minor thing, who cares?" is a very dismissive attitude to have about something like this, and it strikes me that if you're willing to invoke something so lasy then right now you're more interested in winning the argument than you are interested in discussing this. Maybe walk away and cool off for a bit before coming back.

Your average English speaker isn’t going to get the Saiya is just the syllables for the Japanese word for vegetable switched around. Should Funimation had called Saiyans the Tablevege People?

Correct, most English speakers will not get that joke, and a translation made by people who care about the original version may have made an effort at attempting to render the original gag there, as you suggest.

Not everything will fit, and in those cases (of which Saiyan may be one), just keeping the original name is fine. One I see a lot of people argue about is Vegetto vs Vegerot, which is primarily a case of Vegerot being the more sensible translation since it's actually a blending of those two characters' English names, but Vegetto is the one more people are familiar with, so people complain that it sounds silly (seemingly completely unaware of how silly "And then he fired a Ki beam at Cell as Mr Satan watched on" sounds). But Vegerot is the superior choice, because it follows the intent of the original (Vegeta + Kakarot) in a way that English speakers would actually understand.

Your average English speaker would just assume PuiPui is some made up name to sound alien because he is an alien and nothing would be lost.

You seem to have completely inverted the meaning of this. I believe you must have meant this:

Your average English speaker would assume PuiPui is some made-up name to sound alien because he is an alien, and the entire meaning of his name is lost.

Because if you really meant "Nothing is lost", then perhaps you missed the part where PuiPui carries meaning in Japanese, and therefore if it carries no meaning in English, then something has been lost. As in, literally meaning has been lost in the process of translation. That's what things getting lost vs not lost means when talking about a translation. This guy is a goofy alien named after magic words. If he's called something meaningless, part of the joke is lost. I don't see how you fail to understand this simple concept.

She’s called Milk in Spanish versions because Chi Chi is well known Spanish slang for tiddies. It’s not about preserving the pun it’s about not having a character being called the equivalent of Ta-tas.

It can be both, and I would imagine it is both. Do you have proof that the only reason they chose that way of rendering her name was censorship? If all they cared about was censoring her name without caring about meaning, surely they would call her something else entirely, Harmony Gold style. Instead they chose a valid alternative meaning of her name. They did that thing translators do, y'know, that thing where they do their job. Y'know. Translating stuff. From one language into another. So people who speak the other language can enjoy a thing made in the first one. That whole thing. Maybe you've heard of it.

Of all the reasons to bash Funimation “they left his name as it” just seems to be a big reach just to bash them. Like how dare? I can’t believe they didn’t call Kaio-Ken “King Kai’s Fist! “ or “Lord of the World’s Fist” either

Yes, those would have been better translations of those terms. Because they actually carry the original meaning, just like they would if you were Japanese and watched the original. Leaving it as-is isn't a translation choice to be celebrated, it's a fallback to be resorted to if you can't translate something, or in Funimation's case here and in many other places, it's a lazy choice meant to rob Dragon Ball of some of its whimsy in favour of a cheap sci-fi/alien feel. "His name is PuiPui because he's an alien!" instead of the Japanese intent of "His name comes from a childish saying/magic word which fits in with Bibidi-Babidi-Boo and abra-caDabra". Because Funimation didn't care about the whimsical nature of Dragon Ball as it was in Japan, they just wanted their generic American action show.

Again, in subtitles, there's a strong argument to be made for leaving names as romanisations instead of translations, since you can use TL notes. I don't like that approach, but it's a very popular and perfectly valid one that people like Steve Simmons or Clyde Mandelin have often used in their work on Dragon Ball, to good effect.

I assure you nobody is missing out or losing something by not knowing the meaning behind Pui pui.
[...]
Which is fine because it doesn’t have to mean anything
[...]
In this context nakama isn’t a characters name. Now if a character like a Kaio or something was introduced and named Nakama than Funimation should leave their name as is.

I could carry on for ages telling you how utterly insane I find it that you've decided that this character's name doesn't matter, how arbitrary it is that you've decided it doesn't matter that this one translation choice is wrong, at one point I wrote a whole paragraph making fun of this idea and stretching it to Garlic Jr.'s name being Vendar in one obscure dub, Piccolo's name being Big Green in another (and, presumably, if this convention had been followed, the entire musical instrument name scheme of his henchmen would have been lost too, further robbing Dragon Ball of its original whimsy), and eventually to Vegeta's speech when Freeza killed him being completely different in the Funimation dub (which is a different but related case of Funimation disrespecting the original for no reason and erasing original meaning from their translation), but it's not really worth it, because either you'll understand this or you won't, so I'm going to put this as simply as I can:

"I don't think this specific element of the original warrants a proper translation" is very much your opinion, it's 100% arbitrary, and I can't understand why you're arguing on such an asinine basis.
Failing to render the original, whimsical meaning of a Dragon Ball character's name is just one of the many ways Funimation changed Dragon Ball's nature in their original dubs, and it is undoubtedly an aspect people missed out on.

And names have no reason to be handled any differently from dialogue. Just because the Japanese call someone something doesn't mean English-speakers should do, if the only reason they're called something in Japanese is because it's the same as (or similar to) a Japanese term. What, should we call Roshi's weird ki attack from the first tournament "Bankoku-Bikkori-Sho!", or should we call it something more like "Lightning Surprise Attack!", which (for the millionth time) actually carries some semblance of the originally intended meaning?

--

TL;DR: Names are an important aspect of Dragon Ball's humour, just as much as any other joke or pun in the dialogue, and arguing that leaving this stuff untranslated is better is just as ridiculous as arguing that all the weird name schemes we've seen in other obscure dubs (Zero, Leena, Big Green, Vendar, Bongo, etc.) are perfectly valid, as are translation choices such as "You are my nakama", because ultimately both are approaches of deciding that certain individual words, terms, or jokes don't matter and are okay to leave as complete ciphers. You've decided that it's perfectly okay that a random selection of jokes that many would argue make up part of the fun of the show are okay for English speakers to be completely deprived of, and I don't understand why anyone would ever feel this way.

[MyVisionity]

Sharpner and Erasa killing it in the supporting roles. If Toriyama had kept going after Boo they would have been nice additions to the series.

I like how the energy container is shaped kind of like the oil lamp from Arabian Nights.

The dead family nearby Bobbidi's spaceship that Gohan sees represents to me what the Boo arc is all about. Bobbidi and his crew are devoted to the sacred art of death, it's what drives them. Majin Boo is an incarnation of Death itself. This saga ultimately comes down to life versus death.

I like Jōji Yanami's performance as Bobbidi. He gives the character an interesting type of menace.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I like Jōji Yanami's performance as Bobbidi. He gives the character an interesting type of menace.

Yes, and given he's mostly known for playing good characters in the series (Kaio, King Furry, one time as Roshi.etc) it's cool to see him take on a villainous role for a change.

[MasenkoHA]

It’s his name though.

Immaterial. It carries meaning, it should be translated.

You seem to be under the impression that names are different from dialogue. Why?

Because they are? Names don’t need to be translated. It’s like Sailor Moon naming it’s main character “Usagi Tsukino” It literally translates to Rabbit Of The Moon. It would be downright absurd for the English dub to go around having her say “Hi I’m Rabbit Moon!!”

Or imagine if everyone went around calling Kuririn “Chestnut Shaolin” or Chi Chi “Breast” or “Father” or again calling Gohan “Rice”

I do, and anyone who cares about a translation actually doing a good job of, y'know, translating a foreign work (literally the entire job being done here) should do. If something carries meaning in the original, it's the translator's job to ensure as much of that meaning is present in the translation as is feasible.

Expecting literally everything even character’s names to be translated is absurd. Again you’re upset that a character called Puipui in the Japanese version…is called Puipui in the English dub.

Your average English speaker would assume PuiPui is some made-up name to sound alien because he is an alien, and the entire meaning of his name is lost.

Because if you really meant "Nothing is lost", then perhaps you missed the part where PuiPui carries meaning in Japanese, and therefore if it carries no meaning in English, then something has been lost. As in, literally meaning has been lost in the process of translation.

Yeah it’s cute that his name is another reference to the magic/Arabian Nights motif but the viewer isn’t losing anything not knowing that. Anymore than they’re losing out on not knowing Gohan’s name means rice or meal. And the whole joke of Chi Chi saying “Gohan-chan, Gohan yo!” in the first episode and first 2 movies is lost in English because she’s essentially saying “Meal! It’s meal time!” The joke is just going to be lost in the English dub because Gohan’s name is left as is.


Or hell the joke that Captain Ginyu’s name means Captain Dairy. And the Dairy Force is named after Milk Products. I’m not fond of Funimation missing out at leaving Butta as Butta (which sounds close enough to Butter) and instead calling him Burter or calling Jheese “Jeice” and pronouncing it so it sounds far removed from “ Cheese” but I am glad they left Captain Ginyu as Captain Ginyu.

That's what things getting lost vs not lost means when talking about a translation. This guy is a goofy alien named after magic words. If he's called something meaningless, part of the joke is lost. I don't see how you fail to understand this simple concept.

Again it’s the whole”Funimation sucks for leaving his name exactly as it was in the Japanese version” for me. This isn’t like calling Goku’s Nyoibo which could easily be translated as “Compliant Rod” into the stupid “Power Pole” (well stole that from Harmony Gold but still) they just left is as.

Speaking of both Simmons and Mandelin left Nyoibo as is instead of making an English translation. How dare?!?

. Do you have proof that the only reason they chose that way of rendering her name was censorship? If all they cared about was censoring her name without caring about meaning, surely they would call her something else entirely, Harmony Gold style. Instead they chose a valid alternative meaning of her name.

Sure it was good of Intertrack to actually somewhat preserve the meaning of her name. But let’s not pretend going around having a character called Tiddies in a kid show wasn’t their primary concern.


I’m not even going to bother with the rest of this.

[Xeogran]

Anime-only/filler content: Goku and Vegeta attempting to fight Dabra (and missing every attack), Goan and Goten arguing.

Hilarious, considering how Vegeta later complains about Gohan being unable to deal with this guy

[Robo4900]

Anime-only/filler content: Goku and Vegeta attempting to fight Dabra (and missing every attack), Goan and Goten arguing.

Hilarious, considering how Vegeta later complains about Gohan being unable to deal with this guy

Oh yes, I forgot that.

imagine if everyone went around calling Kuririn “Chestnut Shaolin” or Chi Chi “Breast” or “Father” or again calling Gohan “Rice”

Would it be any weirder than characters called Freeza, Cell, Garlic, Piccolo, Piano, Lunch, Snow (or, Sno if you like), Coola, Broli, Paragas, Butta, Dr. Briefs, Trunks, Bra, Oolong, God, Mr. Satan, Pilaf, the various colour generals, colonels, and such of the Red Ribbon Army, King Cold, Boo, Jackie Chun, Lucifer, Sharpener, Erasa, Dr. Frappe, Mint, Mousse, Crepe, Doughnuts, Jelly, Dr. Lychee, Blueberry, Raspberry, Vinegar, Bourbon, Lime, Vodka, Olivue, Catapi, Tolbee, Frog, Pasta, Ginger, Slugg, or Baby?

The point of Dragon Ball names is they have a meaning, usually a funny one. Piccolo and his entire legion are literally named after instruments. Kuririn was killed by someone called Tambourine! Failing to translate this stuff is a failing of the translation. If you think they sound silly when stretched to properly cover all the characters rather than just the handful that tend to get properly translated in the most common translations, then congratulations, you've discovered the joke.

Because they are? Names don’t need to be translated.

Until you can find a better point of view than "Because they are", I have no interest in arguing further with you. I skimmed the rest of your post, your other points amount to more of this "Just because" attitude, or pointing out things that I already addressed (specifically regarding subtitles), and I can't be bothered to regurgitate the same thing at you again in hopes it'll sink in this time.

Next time you want to argue with someone, figure out where you actually stand and why you stand there, otherwise you're going to make yourself look like a total idiot and create a very circular, very annoying discussion that makes your whole point of view look ridiculous, regardless of whether or not you have a point.
I fully accept my view may be wrong, but I'm fairly confident in my view, so it will take a lot more than "Just because" to convince me to re-evaluate my position.

[MyVisionity]

It's a Japanese show. So there's gonna be a language barrier. That's just the way it is.

You start messing with the names, then you start messing with the culture and identity of the series, and that's where I draw the line. If audiences miss out on some of the intended meanings, then that's just too bad.

Dragon Ball is much more than just silly name puns. It's the characters and the story itself that is most important. That is what the primary focus of the translation process should be.

[MasenkoHA]

Would it be any weirder than characters called Freeza, Cell, Garlic, Piccolo, Piano, Lunch, Snow (or, Sno if you like), Coola, Broli, Paragas, Butta, Dr. Briefs, Trunks, Bra, Oolong, God, Mr. Satan, Pilaf, the various colour generals, colonels, and such of the Red Ribbon Army, King Cold, Boo, Jackie Chun, Lucifer, Sharpener, Erasa, Dr. Frappe, Mint, Mousse, Crepe, Doughnuts, Jelly, Dr. Lychee, Blueberry, Raspberry, Vinegar, Bourbon, Lime, Vodka, Olivue, Catapi, Tolbee, Frog, Pasta, Ginger, Slugg, or Baby?

Yes. Honestly. It’s more important that Gohan keeps a name that sounds similar to Goku than it is to call
him meal just so the English dub can retain a few “Hey this kid’s name is Meal. Lol” jokes. Chi Chi’s name can mean Breast or Father something Kame Sennin even muses to himself. Which should someone go with when there’s no English equivalent that covers both? The Spanish dub went with Milk clearly more for censorship reasons and it keeps the joke that it’s related to cows. Her Father is The Cow Demon King and she’s Milk. But it still loses the Father/Breast joke.

Toriyama uses a mix of Japanese and English names why shouldn’t FUNimation strive to retain the Japanese names instead of translating everything into English. Should they translate all the Japanese names into English and use Spanish names for the characters with English names in the Japanese version for full effect?

Until you can find a better point of view than "Because they are", I have no interest in arguing further with you. I skimmed the rest of your post, your other points amount to more of this "Just because" attitude, or pointing out things that I already addressed (specifically regarding subtitles), and I can't be bothered to regurgitate the same thing at you again in hopes it'll sink in this time.

Because I shouldn’t have to argue that a person’s name isn’t the same as conversation? It should be a given? Like explaining to someone water is wet.

Let’s say a Japanese movie or show has a character named Ryu who has a lot of dragon motifs surrounding him. Should the English subtitles call him Dragon just to hold your hand and let you know Hey his name means Dragon!!

Next time you want to argue with someone, figure out where you actually stand and why you stand there, otherwise you're going to make yourself look like a total idiot and create a very circular, very annoying discussion that makes your whole point of view look ridiculous, regardless of whether or not you have a point.

You’re right what was I thinking. A character was named Puipui….and FUNimation ruined everything by leaving his name as Puipui! Why didn’t I see it before?

I fully accept my view may be wrong, but I'm fairly confident in my view, so it will take a lot more than "Just because" to convince me to re-evaluate my position.

Saying a localization team failed because they left a character’s name as is ridiculous. I don’t see any other way of explaining it. I’m all for bashing FUNimation for making their own shit up or ruining jokes that would have been perfectly adaptable if left as is but when you get to the point that it’s bad for them to NOT change something? That just seems like a reach just to make criticism for the sake of it.

It's a Japanese show. So there's gonna be a language barrier. That's just the way it is.

You start messing with the names, then you start messing with the culture and identity of the series, and that's where I draw the line. If audiences miss out on some of the intended meanings, then that's just too bad.

Dragon Ball is much more than just silly name puns. It's the characters and the story itself that is most important. That is what the primary focus of the translation process should be.

Agreed. Sometimes when it comes to translations you have to pick and choose your battles. Especially when things have multiple meanings. Like it would technically be more correct for the dub and subtitles to call “Bulma” Bloomers. But since all of her clothing had Bulma written in the Latin Alphabet it’s just more sensible to call her Bulma.

Clyde Mandelin elected to leave some names as is like Nyoibo and Kinto Un and Mazoku and Roga FuFu Ken or only translating Tenkaichi Budokai as Tenkaichi Tournament instead of calling it “Number One under the heavens Tournament” every single time.

I would have preferred if the subtitles had said “Compliant Rod” and “Somersault Cloud” and “Demon Clansman” but Mandelin felt it was more sufficient to leave them as is and he’s definitely more qualified than I am at translation choices

[PurestEvil]

Like it would technically be more correct for the dub and subtitles to call “Bulma” Bloomers. But since all of her clothing had Bulma written in the Latin Alphabet it’s just more sensible to call her Bulma.

Funny you say that, the Funi dub of the first DB anime actually had Krillin call Bulma “bloomers” as a gag.

[jjgp1112]

When it comes to names, I think the top priority is giving the English (or whatever language) audience an experience as close to the original audience's as possible. So names are absolutely fair game to change unless there's no good alternative (for instance, Krillin's name is a double-layered bald joke - the closest English equivalents would be like, Cuelin or Egglin and um, NO) and it's not that crucial to begin with. Since the Babidi group's name theme is magic shit (and anchored primarily by the distinctly English Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo at that) and Pui Pui's is literally just the Japanese version of Hocus Pocus, Pocus is absolutely acceptable. It's not necessarily necessary but nothing to warrant the rage of purists. Hell, Vegerot is just fine too, while I'm at it.

So my stance I guess it's not important to translate names, but it's not a problem if they do either, as long as the translations are actually good. Very few Dragon Ball characters have names that are central to who they are or even come up in gags in any significant way. Plus, so many of the names are the way they are because of the nature of the Japanese language - in English, having a character just straight up named Milk or Meal is bizarre, whereas the entire foundation of Japanese humor is the concept of homophones. So if I were translating DB, I'd take a Pokemon approach to names or just be selective.

[MasenkoHA]

When it comes to names, I think the top priority is giving the English (or whatever language) audience an experience as close to the original audience's as possible. So names are absolutely fair game to change unless there's no good alternative (for instance, Krillin's name is a double-layered bald joke - the closest English equivalents would be like, Cuelin or Egglin and um, NO) and it's not that crucial to begin with. Since the Babidi group's name theme is magic shit (and anchored primarily by the distinctly English Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo at that) and Pui Pui's is literally just the Japanese version of Hocus Pocus, Pocus is absolutely acceptable. It's not necessarily necessary but nothing to warrant the rage of purists. Hell, Vegerot is just fine too, while I'm at it.

So my stance I guess it's not important to translate names, but it's not a problem if they do either, as long as the translations are actually good. Very few Dragon Ball characters have names that are central to who they are or even come up in gags in any significant way. Plus, so many of the names are the way they are because of the nature of the Japanese language - in English, having a character just straight up named Milk or Meal is bizarre, whereas the entire foundation of Japanese humor is the concept of homophones. So if I were translating DB, I'd take a Pokemon approach to names or just be selective.

I want to clarify this is where I stand. I’m not against changing names for adaptation purposes. Had FUNimation gone with calling Puipui Hocus Pocus and Yakon Alakazam and Dabura Abracadabra just to retain the magic theme naming in a way that English viewers would understand that would have been fine. But it’s not necessary and I don’t see a point in getting upset that Funimation more or less left their names alone. Just like it’s Captain Ginyu not Captain Milk. Changes for the sake of changes is bad. Retaining things (as long as it makes sense to retain the word like proper nouns) or changing things for language adaptation is a-okay with me.


Gohan’s name meaning Meal barely plays into anything. Chi Chi makes the same pun 3 different times and there’s a joke where Mr.Satan confusingly thinks Goku calling for Gohan means he’s calling for a meal and that Gohan must be a bento salesboy. Calling him Meal just to retain a couple of jokes at the expense of his name no longer sounding close to Goku (which is far far more important) is just silly.

[MyVisionity]

When it comes to names, I think the top priority is giving the English (or whatever language) audience an experience as close to the original audience's as possible. So names are absolutely fair game to change unless there's no good alternative (for instance, Krillin's name is a double-layered bald joke - the closest English equivalents would be like, Cuelin or Egglin and um, NO) and it's not that crucial to begin with. Since the Babidi group's name theme is magic shit (and anchored primarily by the distinctly English Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo at that) and Pui Pui's is literally just the Japanese version of Hocus Pocus, Pocus is absolutely acceptable. It's not necessarily necessary but nothing to warrant the rage of purists. Hell, Vegerot is just fine too, while I'm at it.

You cannot recreate the experience for international audiences. It's not possible because it's a Japanese series, first and foremost.

Top priority doesn't go to English and foreign audiences, it goes to the original Japanese audience. The English audience will just have to make do.

If you change Puipui's name, not only are you robbing the character of his own identity, you are also robbing the series of its cultural identity. That's an awful pattern to establish and reinforce. Everyone loses, including the English audience.

[LoganForkHands73]

I'm actually with Masenko and Visionity on this one. I personally don't agree that Puipui's name has to be changed to Pocus when it sounds so different and actually carries a different meaning ("chichin puipui" is just a little incantation used to help kids deal with knee grazes, "hocus pocus" is a generic stage magician spell -- maybe something like "Kissy-Kissy" would be more accurate in that case). No one has ever given Yakon a different name so the insistence that Puipui and only Puipui needs one has always perplexed me. I have to agree with Masenko that the real arbitration is why it's somehow okay to give certain characters these translations "for the reader/viewer", but not others. Why don't Gohan, Ginyu, Tagoma, etc. get their own translations? Surely Ginyu especially. There's plenty of reasons to dunk on the Funimation dub, but when it gets potshots for retaining a character's name untampered, you start to get a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" vibe. With Puipui, I just like the sound of his name as it is, and it helps that's how they say it in Japanese. Knowing the pun thanks to the internet is a helpful bit of trivia, but even without that knowledge, it's not a deal-breaker.

Which leads me to my next point: not everyone picks up on the puns anyway, translated or not. They're all dependent on assumed audience knowledge in one way or another. If, say, you've never seen Cinderella, which is certainly not impossible, the Majin naming scheme will mean nothing to you to begin with. In contrast, if you have, and have also dabbled in common Japanese phrases, you may be able to connect the dots with Puipui and Yakon. Ironically, Viz's "Djinn Boo" requires some knowledge of Arabic folklore to understand. Similarly, there's probably plenty of examples of deeply rooted Eastern mythological concepts throughout the series that go untranslated. If you're a pro translator, there must be some points where you just kinda have to throw your hands up and accept that some culture-specific jokes and conventions can't be equivocated easily... And that's okay, because it wasn't made for a culture on the other side of the globe to 100% understand. You can only do the best with what you've got. Changing the name to handfeed English audiences the pun, which they might not get anyway and might only provide a tepid chuckle even if they do, feels like more effort than its worth.

I guess the takeaway is that it's all arbitrary and subjective on some level.

[jjgp1112]

When it comes to names, I think the top priority is giving the English (or whatever language) audience an experience as close to the original audience's as possible. So names are absolutely fair game to change unless there's no good alternative (for instance, Krillin's name is a double-layered bald joke - the closest English equivalents would be like, Cuelin or Egglin and um, NO) and it's not that crucial to begin with. Since the Babidi group's name theme is magic shit (and anchored primarily by the distinctly English Bibbity-Bobbity-Boo at that) and Pui Pui's is literally just the Japanese version of Hocus Pocus, Pocus is absolutely acceptable. It's not necessarily necessary but nothing to warrant the rage of purists. Hell, Vegerot is just fine too, while I'm at it.

You cannot recreate the experience for international audiences. It's not possible because it's a Japanese series, first and foremost.

Top priority doesn't go to English and foreign audiences, it goes to the original Japanese audience. The English audience will just have to make do.

If you change Puipui's name, not only are you robbing the character of his own identity, you are also robbing the series of its cultural identity. That's an awful pattern to establish and reinforce. Everyone loses, including the English audience.

Um...that's why I clarified as close as possible. Obviously it's impossible to get a 1:1 translation, and as I said in the very same post you quoted, it's ultimately not essential or important.

[MyVisionity]

Um...that's why I clarified as close as possible. Obviously it's impossible to get a 1:1 translation, and as I said in the very same post you quoted, it's ultimately not essential or important.

It's a mistake to attempt to recreate the experience in any capacity. Because it's Japanese, you only end up compromising the original work by doing so. Especially in the context of the names, which are inherently Japanese.

Instead of trying to turn the Japanese experience into an English experience, why not try turning the English experience into a Japanese experience? That requires translators who are willing to trust audiences with the original content, and audiences who are willing to engage with it.