"Here is the thing that can denounce your claim"

[number18]

I originally posted this in my LJ for kicks, but since the kid wants to argue with me, I figured I'd post the whole thing here as it unfolds.

The Japanese translation has jinzouningen as Artificial Humans. The basis on this states that while 17 and 18 were once human, Dr. Gero ended up turning them into 99% machine. The only things that remain, that are human, are 17's and 18's exterior, and anything he allowed them to keep.

Also, numbers 8, 13, 14, 15, as well as 16 and 19 were not human to begin with. So they would be in terms "Androids" and "Artificial Humans". And since they were not human to begin with, they cannot be considered "Cyborgs".

And finally, with numbers 17, 18, and 20, in order for them to be a "bionic human", they still have to have most of their humanity, as well as still contain their biological parts. This is no longer true with any other them. Their bones and everything else were replaced with robotics, and very little internal organics were kept. [Example would be the fact that Dr.Gero's brain is his only internal organism.]

So in conclusion, 17 and 18 are more machine than human now. And since they were never given "bionic enhancements", and their memories are stored in a computer-based brain, they are not cyborgs. And since they only have their external and one internal organism(s), that makes them robots. As in Artificial Humans... Or in this case, Androids.

And also... Take note on the Toei version of Dragon Ball Z, since you seemingly hate the "dubbed" version for the wrong reason. They also noted that Dr. Gero was able to control 17 and 18 with a remote control. This was noted that he was able to turn them on or off when he needed to. And if they were "cyborgs", this would not be possible.

My years on this subject and I rest my case.^_^

-Philip O. Eissler

Interesting claims, right? I respond to the kid with this:

--------------------------
You're absolutely wrong. Please note this picture: http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/truthoftwins.jpg

I don't know where you got this information that 17 and 18 have more mechanical parts than human, but it's incorrect. Even it were true, they would still be cyborgs because they were human to begin with.

#20, Dr. Gero, is also a cyborg. His human brain remains, making him a cyborg. It doesn't matter that his whole body may be artificial - the fact that his human brain still remains and controls that body is all the proof needed to prove he is a cyborg.

As for the remote control that Gero created and the way FUNiMation handled the translation, it still doesn't prove 17 and 18 are androids. At all. The twins do not have their own ki anymore and are powered by eternal energy generators. It's very possible that Gero installed an on/off switch in their generators. I've never heard this line about Gero being able to turn the twins off and on with that remote control, however. What I do know for a fact is that due to the twins' rebellious nature, Gero implanted bombs inside them, using the remote control, which would detonate the bombs, as a threat to control them. You can't really rely on the English dub to prove your points, since the translation differs slightly from time to time.

Did you read the Cyborg or Android section of http://www.lovelycyborg.com at all?

-number18

Actually... No.

And if you want to say otherwise, you are sadly mistaken. Because I have been doing reasearch on this longer than you have, and have taken facts from Toei's version, FUNimation's version, Planet Namek, and the manga (translated by a friend who has a minor in Japanese).

The the word in question means "Artificial Human". Not Cyborg.

The fact is, it was officially stated that Dr.Gero only used two humans for his project, three including himself. It is also officially stated that their bone structures and 99% of their internal organs were removed... Replaced with robotics. So because of this, despite any cybernetics included, they are machines that used to be humans.

Also, again, as I stated, the others were NOT human to begin with. So they cannot be called Cyborgs. Thus, you cannot call all of them Androids, and three of them Cyborgs. Thus, the two REAL correct terms here are "Artificial Human" (as in robots that once were human or look human) and Android (since none of them are human anymore.

Again, you can use any definitions stated in the dictionary. But they do not validate anything without any facts stated by Akira Toriyama himself, much less Toei. And Teoi even said "Artificial Humans", and Toei also stated that Dr.Gero had blueprints involving the two.

And if you want to be this pompous over something you are wrong about, I will drag out the facts even further. I also been researching this for 6 years, and counting. And most of my oiginal research comes from my friend who has been fan since the time DBZ's Cell Era was shown on Japanese TV for the first time. And did reasearch on those characters a year later.

So who am I going to believe? You? Or how about Planet Namek, Akira Toriyama, Toei, and my friend?

Again, I rest my case.

I'm like what? How can anyone be so ignorant? Amazed, I respond with this:

--------------------------
Hm. You're wrong. I'm right. And I'm going to sum things up real nice and easy for you.

1- You have absolutely no proof for anything that you're claiming.
2- You don't know what a cyborg is.
3- You didn't look at that picture I linked for you. It's about #17 and #18. Here it is again. http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/truthoftwins.jpg Read it right to left.
4- You apparently have never seen any of the episodes or chapters of the manga, English or Japanese, where someone states that #18 is still human
5- In all your six grand years of research, you also must have never come across that little part in the 7th Daizenshuu where Toriyama states that before they were cyborgs, #17 and #18 were a pair of notorious delinquents.
6- "Artificial human" is the literal translation of the word "jinzouningen," just like "honorable hand-washing place" is the literal translation of the Japanese word for "bathroom." Jinzouningen doens't just mean android. It's not used so literally by Japanese people. That's why the term can be so easily applied to all of Gero's creations. Please visit this link http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict, put in the word "cyborg" and tell me what Japanese word you get as a result.

Again, you have absolutely no hard evidence for anything that you claim. None. No real facts, links, scans, research papers - nothing.


The kid then responds with this...

Right...

And everything Akira Toriyama himself wrote was wrong. Everything Toei translated from the manga to the anime are wrong. All because they cleary contradict what you state.

So I guess you are a pompous idiot for saying all of that. As well as you claimed with me. So watch Dragon Ball Z: The History of Trunks (Toei's version with english subtitles), as it was translated by a guy majored in Japanese and used to work on Toriyama.net. Who is also one of the biggest Akira Toriyama fans out there. Read the manga translated by Viz. Both primarily say "Artificial Human".

And also, how long have you been researching this, without the manga? Because the manga, not the dictionary, is the correct source.

Also... Ask Temple o' Trunks and Daizenshuu EX. They would both say "Artificial Human" is the correct term. And they may also add the fact that Planet Namek was the most correct form of information. Next to R.Talsorian's third book, which covers 17 and 18, and info on them. Since it was approved by Toei.

And finally... How many RPGs have you worked on? None, I bet. How many DBZ articles have you written, much less written and had published? None on both accounts, I bet. And note 1 for the RPG for me, and 2 for the published articles for me.

So yeah... I know more about this than you do. I follow the terminology, WHILE following the facts Toriyama himself have written... As well as what Toei translated into the anime version. And what proof do you have? The fact you use the dictionary? Huh. Dictionary facts vs. creator's facts. Gee... I wonder what is more correct.

So I guess you lost, bub. And when I comment your site, I will just regard it as you made it be. A "bootleg version of a fan site, with the owner showing no regard to the real facts because they go against what is said in the dictionary". 'Nuff said.

So do your research, and until then... Anything you say will be based on complete ignorance to the truth. And no matter what you say, or claim, it will not change the facts written long before you became a fan of the series.

I had to read and reread his email about 3 times to make any sort of sense of it. I respond with this:

--------------------------
Your ignorance is astounding and almost as amazing as your grammar is terrible.
Let me just recap your argument here with a sentence by sentence breakdown...

And everything Akira Toriyama himself wrote was wrong.
Akira Toriyama wrote that 17 and 18 were humans, twins, and cyborgs. There are multiple sources I can quote to prove this. Where are yours?

Everything Toei translated from the manga to the anime are wrong. All because they cleary contradict what you state.
Clearly? Get me some evidence of this evident contradiction.

So I guess you are a pompous idiot for saying all of that.
Saying all of what? That the twins are cyborgs? Which they are.

As well as you claimed with me.
Huh?

So watch Dragon Ball Z: The History of Trunks (Toei's version with english subtitles), as it was translated by a guy majored in Japanese and used to work on Toriyama.net. Who is also one of the biggest Akira Toriyama fans out there.
The History of Trunks makes no mention of the origins of the twins and only refers to them as jinzouningen, which, if you had followed that little dictionary link I sent you, is a multi-faceted term.

Read the manga translated by Viz. Both primarily say "Artificial Human".
No, it doesn't actually. The Viz-translated manga uses the term android. In fact Shonen Jump clearly states that 17 and 18 are technically cyborgs. http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/18isacyborg.jpg There's proof for you.

Also... Ask Temple o' Trunks and Daizenshuu EX. They would both say "Artificial Human" is the correct term.
They would also agree with me on the fact that 17, 18 and 20 are all cyborgs. Just for kicks, I'll ask them myself what they think.

And they may also add the fact that Planet Namek was the most correct form of information.
Was it really? I remember visiting that site years ago and finding "Cyborg 18" in their character guide. It's a shame Planet Namek doesn't even exist anymore, though. It's be gone for ages.

Next to R.Talsorian's third book, which covers 17 and 18, and info on them. Since it was approved by Toei.
I've never heard of this author before. Show me a link to his book on amazon.com.

And finally... How many RPGs have you worked on? None, I bet.
What bearing could this possibly have on the argument at hand? I'll tell you - it has no bearing whatsoever. As for RPGs, I've been running an rpg for 7 years. I'll give you the email addresses of everyone in my campaign if you'd like to verify that.

How many DBZ articles have you written, much less written and had published?
How many DBZ articles have I written? Well, I do run an entire website on #18, a DBZ character, which is regularly updated with juicy, well-written content.

None on both accounts, I bet. And note 1 for the RPG for me, and 2 for the published articles for me.
Scan that published DBZ article for me? I really wanna know where it was published. The internet doesn't count.

You know, I was going to break down the last few things you said too, but it's so nonsensical and ludicrous that I couldn't even bring myself to do it.

The bottomline to all of this, however, is that you're still not giving me any sort of evidence to ANY of the claims you're making. You don't make sense...and I can only logically conclude that you're borderline retarded or seriously mislead.

-number18

--------------------------

Midway through writing that response, he sends me this email...

Subject: Viz also contradicts you. And they get permission from Toriyama himself, when needed.

Also...

I wanted to point out that Viz translated it in the main Cell Era part of the manga as "Android". And with their translations, they tend to have everything approved by Toriyama... Especially edits.

So go to www.shonenjump.com, and read their translatons (on their site). And even ask them if Androids was part of the manga. Mainly they will say either "yes", or "it was Artificial Humans, but we got permission from Akira Toriyama to change it to Androids".

I rest my case.

I'll post his inevitably stupid response when I get it. Till then, your thoughts?

I send him this email...

--------------------------
Here are some scans from Shonen Jump, by Viz...you know, the publisher that apparently contradicts what I'm saying. Read carefully...

page 1 - http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/29.jpg
page 2 - http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/30.jpg

Proof the twins are cyborgs - http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/31.jpg
More proof - http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/18isacyborg.jpg
A little chart about all of Gero's creations - note what it says about 16 through 20-
http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/androidabc.jpg

You really shoulda checked out my website entirely before coming at me like this. It's making you look extremely foolish.

-number18

--------------------------


I can't even imagine what this kid is going to respond with next. Oh the drama unfolds!!

[B-kun]

Heh, the dub REALLY can't decide on how to handle 17 and 18. First they say they're completely mechanical, then they say 18 was originally a human, and then GT comes along. In the episode where Kuririn was killed, in the part where Kuririn originally said that 17 and 18 hated Dr. Gero (17 was calling him Doctor Gero-sama), dub Krillin said that 17 and 18 hated Je-row because he gave them "human emotions". Thus, the tired fanboy has a "What the fuck?" moment.

[number18]

Does it seriously say that shit in GT? About the human emotions?
Jesus christ...

Oh, and I'll be editing the first post when the kid responds...which he just did.

[B-kun]

Does it seriously say that shit in GT? About the human emotions?
Jesus christ...

Oh, and I'll be editing the first post when the kid responds...which he just did.

Dub, only yeah. And that was more or less my reaction. Oddly, I was watching that to see how they handled the death scene, and in the flashback of when 18 kissed Kurirn ("Ja ne") the dub took out dialogue. Instead of her saying "see ya", she said... nothing. It amused me.

[James R. Cadwell]

I like how people totally ignore the fact that #18 has a child when they claim she's almost entirely mechanical. Was Marron made in a factory?

[B-kun]

I like how people totally ignore the fact that #18 has a child when they claim she's almost entirely mechanical. Was Marron made in a factory?

Funnily enough, a minute before the "you hated Gero because he gave you emotions, even though you had them to begin with!", Krillin had said that 18 had a husband and a child!

[number18]

It's official. This kid is reTARTed. Check this out...

And you are contradicting the facts stated. Viz stated from the beginning that when they had to make chages, i.e. edits, they went to Akira Toriyama himself. There is also another stated fact that states that he has to approve of anything involving his own work, as it is his property. This means that if Viz is to make any changes to the manga, as in edits and name changes, they have to get his approval.

And also... You are also contradicted, because you only noted three artificial humans. Not all 21 (with 11 used). That means out of 11, 3 were once human and the other 8 were not.

Seconds after receiving this, I get this crap:

#1 proof: http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~vegex/guid ... rence.html

Note these were translated and posted on Daizenshuu EX. Basically all of their translations come from Toriyama.net.

[procedes to list a bunch of translated manga chapters titles that have "artificial humans" in it]

What kills me is this:
Note these were translated and posted on Daizenshuu EX. Basically all of their translations come from Toriyama.net.

Julian, apparently all of Daizex's translations come from toriyama.net. You're a farce!!


UPDATE: So the kid sent me that crazy email. I respond with this:
_________________
You're fighting a losing battle, buddy. The facts Viz state are that 17, 18, and 20 are all cyborgs. I've sent you the pictures to prove it. Those facts are agreeing with what I've always known, with what I have posted on my website - #18 is a cyborg.  
 
I'm not even sure it's worth responding to your emails anymore. You are amazingly dumb...ignorant to the nth degree. In fact, your claims are so preposterous and stupid that I'm making fun of you on the internet. I might even make a whole section on my website just to showcase your stupidity. It'll be called "When I'm Right."
 
By the way, all of DaizenshuuEXs translations are done by Julian Grybowski, who is one of the two webmasters of Daizex.com. I don't think Julian works for Toriyama.net.
 
-number18
___________________

And he comes back at me with this crapola:

Actually... On www.shonenjump.com, they have the manga chapters up. And instead of "Artificial Human", they say "Android".

Also, Daizenshuu EX has every chapter mentioned, from the Graphic Novels to the ones first mentioned in Shonen Jump, by Viz. And this is what they actually say...

[procedes to list a bunch of the same manga chapters translated into English by VIZ]

Also note that you just lied to me. Both Viz's Shonen Jump site and Daizenshuu EX both state that Viz published it (with any permission needed) as Androids. So if you are right, then you are calling an official company and a 6 year old website as liars.

So I sez:
_____________________
http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/31.jpg
 
Interesting. There's a page from Shonen Jump calling the trio The Androids...and then explaining further below that technically, 17 and 18 are cyborgs.
 
You lose.
_____________________

And he sez:

Sorry, but you lose. The term also says "TECHNICALLY". So while they technically are, as the thing says, it means they are not overall.

Learn english bub, because you lost due to a single word.

And then I wraps it up with this:
________________________
You really must be mentally handicapped. Your grasp of the English language is laughable.

Viz calls them The Androids out of convenience. For morons like you, they explain that technically, despite being labelled as androids, 17 and 18 are cyborgs.

http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/18isacyborg.jpg
This scan even says that #16 is the only true android out of the group.

http://www.cyborgmemoirs.com/shrine/androidabc.jpg
And THIS scan labels 17, 18, and 20 all as cyborgs. Look closely, will you?

I win. Stop trying.

-number18
________________________

Look at me go!!
Really though, how many times do I have to give this kid links to these scans proving I'm right? How retarded can one person truly be? I've never dealt with anyone this ridiculous before...

[SaiyaJedi]

I just got this in my e-mail from the guy:

I am having a pointless arguement with this guy, who claims he is right despite what I say, and need some actual facts to prove he is wrong. And since you are able to translate the manga, you may be able to help me with this... So... Here are my questions.

1) Isn't the term "Artificial Human" used for 16, 17, 18, and the others? Or did Toriyama also refer to them as "Cyborg"?

2) Is ther term "Android" used by Viz a more correct term? And did they get Akira Toriyama's permission to use that term?

3) Didn't Dr.Gero use external organs, and one internal organ (i.e. his brain) with 17, 18 and himself? And was this mentioned in the manga, or some other works?

That is all I need to know. Thanks for any replies.^_^

Needless to say, I responded. However, I did it up so that I was simply responding to his questions, and not betraying my annoyance at his petty "I'm-right-and-you're-not" stance (as well has his mistaking you for a man!).

Here's what I wrote back:

Hi! Glad to be of service here.

1) In general, all of Dr. Gero's creations are referred to as "Jinzouningen" (literally translated, "artificial humans"). However, you have to understand that the term as it's used in Japanese (chiefly science fiction) is very broad, ranging from completely mechanical creations (such as #16) all the way up to humans with cybernetic enhancements (such as #17 and #18 ). While Toriyama never actually used the English loanword "saiboogu" (cyborg) to describe either 17 or 18, they do say themselves that they're "enhanced" humans (for which the term "jinzouningen" is sufficiently broad).

2) Viz's use of the term "Android" is something of a compromise. The English language does not have a specific word that matches the broadness of "jinzouningen;" for example, "robot," "automaton," and "android" all refer to completely mechanical creations, whereas "cyborg" (derived form "cybernetic organism," implying a mechanical/organic duality) is specific to beings who have both natural and synthetic body parts. Thus, you could say that #16 and #19 are robots, #20 is a brain in a robot body, and #17 and #18 are cyborgs. However, it would be weird to give them individual labels, when they are always collectively referred to as the same thing -- "jinzouningen." In the end, Viz resorted to using the term "androids" (which both fans and FUNimation had used previously), and noted occasionally (chiefly in the character sketches in the front of the graphic novels and Jump chapters) that #17 and #18 are actually cyborgs.

I don't think that Akira Toriyama would have been consulted on this -- generally, the original creator isn't called upon unless it's actually a name _change_, rather than a translation. For example, if Viz wished to change "Mr. Satan" to something ridiculous like "Mr. Sandwich," they'd probably have to consult Toriyama... but they're not likely to do so over a specific way to translate a Japanese term. For what it's worth, the song "WARNING OF DANGER ...Keikoku...," from one of the "Hit Song Collection" CDs, uses the word "android;" however, since this was an "image song" (created by another artist and not used in the series), this gives no indication of what Toriyama would want them called in English.

3) It's never stated specifically in the series exactly what parts of their human bodies Dr. Gero used. It's known that Dr. Gero put (at least) his brain into the "#20" body, but it's not clear whether the outer layer is his actual skin or a close facsimile. As for #17 and #18, they are probably much closer to the "human" end of the scale. While #17's own statistics are relatively unknown, #18 bore a child. This would mean that she has (at least) a fully-functioning reproductive system; this, in turn, suggests that her major bodily systems are still in perfect working order (carrying a child to term requires a delicate balance of hormones, nutrition, bloodflow, and of course, intact reproductive organs). Since #17 and #18 were worked on at the same time, it would logically follow that #17 is similar, and thus mostly human as well. (While one might speculate as to exactly _why_ Gero would allow such a thing as hormones to continue to exert a powerful influence over them, it is beside the point in this argument.)

Thus, #17 and #18, at least, are definitely cyborgs, regardless of whether Toriyama explicitly stated it or not. #20, on the other hand could be _technically_ considered a cyborg (since at least his brain is intact); however, he would more likely be classified as a robot / android with a human brain.

I hope that clears things up a bit. I know it's quite confusing, and it took me some time as well to realize that while some things in Japanese may have a specific literal meaning, it doesn't always mean what it says. On Daizenshuu EX, I chose to either translate it as "artificial human" or leave it alone; that's because I feel that "artificial human" is vague enough not to be taken as one specific thing, leaving it open to interpretation. Sadly, there just really isn't any good way to translate the word in this context... :-\

But anyway, thank you for your interest. It can be a pain in the neck to translate Japanese well a lot of the time... but hopefully now you've got a clearer picture of what goes on in order to get a good English rendering out of it. It can be frustrating, but when it's done well, it can be quite rewarding.

So hopefully, that'll get him to shut up. And if not (or if he tries to twist my facts around so he still can claim he's right), I'll take him to task... if not for you, than for me ("Toriyama.net" my ass...).

[Deus ex Machina]

Bah, you are so wrong! Stop trying to convince us all with useless facts, we all know the truth, because I have a japanese friend who personally knows Akira Toriyama. He also told me AF is true and that you are wrong. So take that, I'll wait for your apology now.

[PsyLiam]

I also been researching this for 6 years, and counting.

Christ, someone get that kid a girlfriend. Or Playstation.

[number18]

More BS ensued after the last email whatnot. The same ole argument. Then I got fed up, IMd the kid, and asked him where he was getting his info that the twins have computers for brains.

He told me he got it from an RPG... ugh.

Julian, I think I love you. That reply couldn't have been better...

Oh wait...

Last part...

In general, all of Dr. Gero's creations are referred to as "Jinzouningen" (literally translated, "artificial humans"). However, you have to understand that the term as it's used in Japanese (chiefly science fiction) is very broad, ranging from completely mechanical creations (such as #16) all the way up to humans with cybernetic enhancements (such as #17 and #18). While Toriyama never actually used the English loanword "saiboogu" (cyborg) to describe either 17 or 18, they do say themselves that they're "enhanced" humans (for which the term "jinzouningen" is sufficiently broad).

And dude, hope you like being reported to AOL for flaming, as in verbal abuse.

All because Viz stated that both Cyborg and Android are correct. And another said the correct term is Artificial Human.

Meaning that while they are technically cyborgs (as they are enhanced humans with cybernetics), their loss of humanity also makes them be considered androids. Why call them Androids? Because up to one point, they were not known to be human.

And also... Yes. Dr.Gero did remove their brains. Otherwise, Toriyama would have given them the same look as he had. And if you looked at an example, in one anime episode, you can see that they hinted about 17 and 18. Plus, it was noted that they were made in a similar manner as 16 was. But they were made from humans, not from scratch.

So in term, they had to have computer brains, and not their original. And if they did not, then it can clearly contradict what Toriyama himself had written (and shown).

Did he just ...ignore what I've been saying all this time...again?
Did he just spontaneously make up more BS information?
Did he just try to tell me that cyborgs turn into androids?
Did...did he not even say he got that info from you, Julian?

KILL ME NOW!! =cries=

[VegettoEX]

Let's just ask our resident CEO, Gen Fukunaga. He'll be glad to clear it up for us.

[Deus ex Machina]

Let's just ask our resident CEO, Gen Fukunaga. He'll be glad to clear it up for us.

You mean the guy who thinks GT is about Trunks going back in time to when Goku was a child?

[VegettoEX]

You mean the guy who thinks GT is about Trunks going back in time to when Goku was a child?

Well, yeah. Obviously he's the guy we want telling us the cold, hard facts.

I love kids.

[Zackarotto]

I also been researching this for 6 years, and counting.

Christ, someone get that kid a girlfriend. Or Playstation.

Perhaps one he can't get, the other he can't buy... hey, I wonder how that would work the other way around...

[B-kun]

Let's just ask our resident CEO, Gen Fukunaga. He'll be glad to clear it up for us.

You mean the guy who thinks GT is about Trunks going back in time to when Goku was a child?

... HE DIDN'T.

[B-kun]

I also been researching this for 6 years, and counting.

Christ, someone get that kid a girlfriend. Or Playstation.

Perhaps one he can't get, the other he can't buy... hey, I wonder how that would work the other way around...

Whoever first said "Go out and get a girlfriend" should be shot and HANGED.

Actually, is he still alive?

[Deus ex Machina]

Let's just ask our resident CEO, Gen Fukunaga. He'll be glad to clear it up for us.

You mean the guy who thinks GT is about Trunks going back in time to when Goku was a child?

... HE DIDN'T.

I'm sorry, it's true. And with the way FUNi wrote its dub, I'm not suprised.

[B-kun]

I'm sorry, it's true. And with the way FUNi wrote its dub, I'm not suprised.

.. I have lost all faith in humanity. *sets up a circle of detonating plushies*

[PsyLiam]

Whoever first said "Go out and get a girlfriend" should be shot and HANGED.

Actually, is he still alive?

I am. Unless you mean generally. And I honestly wasn't trying to do some sort of "OMG you are single and sad and gay!!!" thing.

But still, 6 years? Researching whether #16 and #17 have computers for brains or not? There's having a hobby, and there's been start raving mad.