Why is Toei so obsessed in making Goku dumb in DBS and DBS movies

[super michael]

In DBS anime and DBS movie, it is like Toei always has to have Goku doing and saying dumb things. Goku does things in DBS, which contradicts what he learned in DB/DBZ, but the question is why.

With age Goku should be getting wise, not dumb instead.

[Xeogran]

I think the real reason is that it's easier to write situations around a dumb character than a smart one.
With DBS being as long as it is, villains like old Moro could have been defeated in no time if Goku was smart.

And by making the character of Beerus, a million years old God, it would look dumb on him if Goku outsmarted him (which he already did once with Instant Transmission in BoG anyhow)

[Rafa Fast]

I can see that happening really often in the TV series, but in the Movies?
There's Super Hero, but at least for me, the entire movie have Toriyama's ideas on it, except for the the scenes in Beerus's Planet, they clearly were Toei's idea to have Goku & Vegeta show up somehow in the movie, and of course, to make it sell more.

You have Goku being against what literally himself did in the Granolla Arc, and Goku & Vegeta still talking about Jiren, even though the ToP events by that time were already 3 sagas + a movie away.

And in DBS Broly, besides the scene in Capsule Corp where Vegeta gets frustated with Goku, for me Goku in the whole movie feels totally accurate to his manga counterpart.

Also it's important to note that Toei indeed always had its own portrayal of Goku, it's just that in Super it's different from what was in Z, remember when Toriyama said that Goku isn't a hero? Toei in Animated Z portrayed him as one, specially in the movies, where he just kills everyone with no hesitation.

[GokuHater]

It's Toei and Toryiama both, don't be fooled

As for the reasons, there could really be plenty...
Maybe the staff thinks this is funny and will adhere to kids?
Maybe it's easier this way?
Maybe the writers are lazy and take inspiration from the most stereotypical parts of Goku's character?
Maybe the writers didn't know the source material and took inspiration from DBZA?
Maybe Toryiama thought this was as Goku was in the manga all the time? (And as someone who read manga several times, I call bulls**t )

Maybe, maybe, maybe. We can't really tell but these could be some potential reasons.
I don't enjoy stupid super Goku anymore than you do

EDIT:
Also don't forget... Super was written as it's own series from the beginning. Off course it's a continuation of Z but also it's own thing. After all many years have now passed, there's a completetly new demographic of viewers some of whom never read/watched the original.
And as such Super's formula has to be changed a bit to make a hero journey nearly from the beginning. That's why we see some characters regressed, they cannot be fully complete and perfect as that would be boring.
This way, Vegeta is still in his 'phaze' of beating Goku so he can grow out from it
and Goku is stupider beacuse.... He can get wiser and more experienced I guess... ???

[PurestEvil]

It's very simple: they write him to be "dumb" for comic relief. Not that it's all that funny, but that is the intent. Moreover, Goku essentially being a "flat character" from the get-go makes it easier to stagnate his character progression.

I don't enjoy stupid super Goku anymore than you do

We could tell by your username

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That’s Toriyama mostly. I can understand jokes like “Goku doesn’t know how to kiss”, but Goku forgetting meditation in Super Hero is utterly baffling. Fighting and training are the two things he knows everything about, plus we literally see him meditating in Super!

[Koitsukai]

That’s Toriyama mostly. I can understand jokes like “Goku doesn’t know how to kiss”, but Goku forgetting meditation in Super Hero is utterly baffling. Fighting and training are the two things he knows everything about, plus we literally see him meditating in Super!

Even better, SH released on June 11th, and on June 20th Goku unlocks TUI through meditation.

[Shinsa]

I think its simple, lazy writing.

They thought it was a good idea to play up the Goku clichés to add dumb comedy to the show. This doesn't work because Goku isn't the same character he used to be from the original DB. It plays off more as a parody then the character acting natural. DB is for a younger audience and I think they thought it would be the easiest to gain a new young audience....not sure it worked. I could be mistaken but I don't see a lot of young people hyped about DB.

[JulieYBM]

I think its simple, lazy writing.

They thought it was a good idea to play up the Goku clichés to add dumb comedy to the show. This doesn't work because Goku isn't the same character he used to be from the original DB. It plays off more as a parody then the character acting natural. DB is for a younger audience and I think they thought it would be the easiest to gain a new young audience....not sure it worked. I could be mistaken but I don't see a lot of young people hyped about DB.

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

[Shinsa]

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

Yes of course I think they didn't put much thought or respect into how his character is written and the result is a characterization that I disgree with. To me it was clear how rushed the project was in the first 2 arcs of the show, the 3rd was getting interesting until the botched ending, then settled on rehashing another tournament arc to wrap up the show. The ideas and transformations presented in the show are also half baked with very much to be desired. So yes, I think not much thought was put into the show as a whole using cliche tropes with the characters being a vessel to fulfill those said tropes. If I think they put a lot of thought into making Goku and the remaining cast of characters into mascots to sell merchandise, then sure yes they did. However pulling blue hair and god ki out of no where in my opinion was not creative, inspiring or well explained/ executed. I see many topics on forums of people trying to explain or justify concepts in the show as a result of this. But honestly DB in general as always been inconsistent, its not a masterpiece but it at least evolved it's characters.

EDIT: It's also evident that it wasn't well thought out because we all still argue about his characterization making the fanbase divided about it. I don't really see people complaining about DB Goku to DBZ Goku...hell even GT Goku lol.

[JulieYBM]

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

Yes of course I think they didn't put much thought or respect into how his character is written and the result is a characterization that I disgree with. To me it was clear how rushed the project was in the first 2 arcs of the show, the 3rd was getting interesting until the botched ending, then settled on rehashing another tournament arc to wrap up the show. The ideas and transformations presented in the show are also half baked with very much to be desired. So yes, I think not much thought was put into the show as a whole using cliche tropes with the characters being a vessel to fulfill those said tropes. If I think they put a lot of thought into making Goku and the remaining cast of characters into mascots to sell merchandise, then sure yes they did. However pulling blue hair and god ki out of no where in my opinion was not creative, inspiring or well explained/ executed. I see many topics on forums of people trying to explain or justify concepts in the show as a result of this. But honestly DB in general as always been inconsistent, its not a masterpiece but it at least evolved it's characters.

EDIT: It's also evident that it wasn't well thought out because we all still argue about his characterization making the fanbase divided about it. I don't really see people complaining about DB Goku to DBZ Goku...hell even GT Goku lol.

You can't make the determination that the work was 'lazy' based on you simply not liking it. The series is produced on a short schedule and has to factor in not only the creative wills of the people making it but also the desires of the production committee as well as the original creator's decrees about what can and cannot be done. This is to say nothing of being forced into a position of having to try to come up with something while also being unable to make big, status-quo changing decisions because their cartoon series has to be able to not contradict anything Toriyama might arbitrary decide he wants to have happen.

King Ryuu, Tomioka Atsuhiro and the other writers—to say nothing of the series directors and episode directors—are anything but 'lazy' considering all of the odds stacked against them and yet they still managed to turn out numerous good ideas and incorporate them into the series.

[Shinsa]

You can't make the determination that the work was 'lazy' based on you simply not liking it. The series is produced on a short schedule and has to factor in not only the creative wills of the people making it but also the desires of the production committee as well as the original creator's decrees about what can and cannot be done. This is to say nothing of being forced into a position of having to try to come up with something while also being unable to make big, status-quo changing decisions because their cartoon series has to be able to not contradict anything Toriyama might arbitrary decide he wants to have happen.

King Ryuu, Tomioka Atsuhiro and the other writers—to say nothing of the series directors and episode directors—are anything but 'lazy' considering all of the odds stacked against them and yet they still managed to turn out numerous good ideas and incorporate them into the series.

Hmm ok I see your point, the individual work done on episodes aren't considered lazy. I'll correct myself. The way Goku was written by Toei was in my opinion not well thought out and mediocre. Mismanaged. It seems they wanted to go for a mascot character and not take risks, that's why characters have regressed so they can keep using them over and over as gags or macguffin.

[super michael]

I think its simple, lazy writing.

They thought it was a good idea to play up the Goku clichés to add dumb comedy to the show. This doesn't work because Goku isn't the same character he used to be from the original DB. It plays off more as a parody then the character acting natural. DB is for a younger audience and I think they thought it would be the easiest to gain a new young audience....not sure it worked. I could be mistaken but I don't see a lot of young people hyped about DB.

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

Making Goku into a mindless and brainless character doesn't take any thought at all, especially when it contradicts Goku intelligence that he showed in the past.

Toei wanted to make Goku dumb, that is the only thing they think about. Anything does or says is dumb.

I have a list of how DBS Anime Goku contradicts his past self.

Meditation is great in real life, great for the body to relax and clam the mind.
Dragon Ball Goku does it with Mr Popo, in the ROAST and in Otherworld. He has done it in DBS Manga and anime.
Goku called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days.

DBS Super Hero Toei didn't care if they contradict anything, they have to make Goku dumb. Goku thinks meditation is worthless, not training and only good for getting rusty.
Basically Goku thinks meditation has no benefit.

[JulieYBM]

I think its simple, lazy writing.

They thought it was a good idea to play up the Goku clichés to add dumb comedy to the show. This doesn't work because Goku isn't the same character he used to be from the original DB. It plays off more as a parody then the character acting natural. DB is for a younger audience and I think they thought it would be the easiest to gain a new young audience....not sure it worked. I could be mistaken but I don't see a lot of young people hyped about DB.

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

Making Goku into a mindless and brainless character doesn't take any thought at all, especially when it contradicts Goku intelligence that he showed in the past.

Toei wanted to make Goku dumb, that is the only thing they think about. Anything does or says is dumb.

I have a list of how DBS Anime Goku contradicts his past self.

Meditation is great in real life, great for the body to relax and clam the mind.
Dragon Ball Goku does it with Mr Popo, in the ROAST and in Otherworld. He has done it in DBS Manga and anime.
Goku called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days.

DBS Super Hero Toei didn't care if they contradict anything, they have to make Goku dumb. Goku thinks meditation is worthless, not training and only good for getting rusty.
Basically Goku thinks meditation has no benefit.

Toei is not a monolith. Multiple members of production are involved in decision-making, even if one member (a producer or series director's) will is acted upon. This is why a change of staff usually leads to changes in a series.

[super michael]

So, they put a lot of thought into and deciding on a characterization, while factoring in multiple factors and yet that's 'lazy'? Come on, I don't exactly care for Gokuu's characterization but to call it 'lazy writing' just because you, personally, don't like it is just silly.

Making Goku into a mindless and brainless character doesn't take any thought at all, especially when it contradicts Goku intelligence that he showed in the past.

Toei wanted to make Goku dumb, that is the only thing they think about. Anything does or says is dumb.

I have a list of how DBS Anime Goku contradicts his past self.

Meditation is great in real life, great for the body to relax and clam the mind.
Dragon Ball Goku does it with Mr Popo, in the ROAST and in Otherworld. He has done it in DBS Manga and anime.
Goku called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days.

DBS Super Hero Toei didn't care if they contradict anything, they have to make Goku dumb. Goku thinks meditation is worthless, not training and only good for getting rusty.
Basically Goku thinks meditation has no benefit.

Toei is not a monolith. Multiple members of production are involved in decision-making, even if one member (a producer or series director's) will is acted upon. This is why a change of staff usually leads to changes in a series.

Multiple people don't understand the character and does everything possible to make them bad.

The staff that worked on DBS anime were terrible at writing.

[JulieYBM]

Making Goku into a mindless and brainless character doesn't take any thought at all, especially when it contradicts Goku intelligence that he showed in the past.

Toei wanted to make Goku dumb, that is the only thing they think about. Anything does or says is dumb.

I have a list of how DBS Anime Goku contradicts his past self.

Meditation is great in real life, great for the body to relax and clam the mind.
Dragon Ball Goku does it with Mr Popo, in the ROAST and in Otherworld. He has done it in DBS Manga and anime.
Goku called Vegeta a genius for standing still for a couple days.

DBS Super Hero Toei didn't care if they contradict anything, they have to make Goku dumb. Goku thinks meditation is worthless, not training and only good for getting rusty.
Basically Goku thinks meditation has no benefit.

Toei is not a monolith. Multiple members of production are involved in decision-making, even if one member (a producer or series director's) will is acted upon. This is why a change of staff usually leads to changes in a series.

Multiple people don't understand the character and does everything possible to make them bad.

The staff that worked on DBS anime were terrible at writing.

Big multimedia franchises like Dragon Ball have oversight from producers (or original authors, like Toriyama) that dictate how and what sort of decisions to make with characters to make them as palettable for general audiences as possible. These aren't exactly writers being given a ton of freedom in how they write these characters, especially not when considering they have to balance the needs of a series director, producer and original author with what they might want to personally do. The consistency with which Gokuu is written in combination with the every-changing staff suggests this is a decree from above and out of the hands of the freelancers writing the series.

And, again, you're making these weird goalpost moves for no reason. I've already said I don't care for how Gokuu is written, my point is that to call the staff 'lazy' is just not reflective of the reality of producing a television series, especially one on such a short schedule as Dragon Ball Super.

[Cipher]

The meditation line is a little sloppy (but almost certainly from Toriyama, come on), but I also think fans tend to overblow it. The context of the scene is that they’ve come to Beerus’ planet for training, and Vegeta has just been sitting around during that time, while Goku is looking to practice. It’s not really egregious to have him be frustrated by it. The line where he comes down on meditation as a whole is … not in the film and invented entirely in fans’ heads.

That said, certain traits of Goku’s, like certain traits of everyone’s, get a little exaggerated in the movies because they’re written as condensed stories that have to communicate character elements and work both action and humor into 90 minutes. There’s a level on which you just have to accept that as a meta element, and be along to enjoy it or not. Long-form, serialized stories with breathing room they are not.

[super michael]

The meditation line is a little sloppy (but almost certainly from Toriyama, come on), but I also think fans tend to overblow it. The context of the scene is that they’ve come to Beerus’ planet for training, and Vegeta has just been sitting around during that time, while Goku is looking to practice. It’s not really egregious to have him be frustrated by it. The line where he comes down on meditation as a whole is … not in the film and invented entirely in fans’ heads.

That said, certain traits of Goku’s, like certain traits of everyone’s, get a little exaggerated in the movies because they’re written as condensed stories that have to communicate character elements and work both action and humor into 90 minutes. There’s a level on which you just have to accept that as a meta element, and be along to enjoy it or not. Long-form, serialized stories with breathing room they are not.

That meditation line shouldn't have been said by Goku or at all. It contradicts DB/DBZ.

Goku had no problem waiting to train in DBZ, he let Vegeta and Trunks train first in the ROSAT.

Goku compliments Vegeta standing still for a couple of days, trying to figure out how to get to the next level of Super Saiyan.

[LoganForkHands73]

There are certainly ways of rationalising around the meditation scene that are valid, but I think the sloppy presentation is the main issue. I like when Goku gets to act dumb and goofy about stuff outside of training, but one of the quiet pleasures of genre fiction is seeing a protagonist who is intelligent and competent at the specific thing they do, which is usually the centrepiece of the story and setting. If Goku is presented as a clueless dolt even in the one area he’s supposed to specialise in (he may not be against meditation per se, but the fact that he acts all bewildered by it and needs a lecture from Whis certainly creates that effect), that’s going too far in my opinion. Imagine if Poirot was suddenly confused by basic deductive techniques while investigating a murder, or Blackjack forgot how to do surgery without explanation. What would be the point of these characters if they lost their skills at their jobs? Now, I don’t think Goku is suddenly gonna lose his competence at fighting, but the fact that he is this strategic genius in all areas of martial arts is key to his character and makes him enjoyable to see in action, and this scene completely undermines that. It doesn’t help that the following training battle scene also shows Goku as a hotheaded, pratfalling brute compared to the calm and collected Vegeta.

[Shorty GZ2]

There are certainly ways of rationalising around the meditation scene that are valid, but I think the sloppy presentation is the main issue. I like when Goku gets to act dumb and goofy about stuff outside of training, but one of the quiet pleasures of genre fiction is seeing a protagonist who is intelligent and competent at the specific thing they do, which is usually the centrepiece of the story and setting. If Goku is presented as a clueless dolt even in the one area he’s supposed to specialise in (he may not be against meditation per se, but the fact that he acts all bewildered by it and needs a lecture from Whis certainly creates that effect), that’s going too far in my opinion. Imagine if Poirot was suddenly confused by basic deductive techniques while investigating a murder, or Blackjack forgot how to do surgery without explanation. What would be the point of these characters if they lost their skills at their jobs? Now, I don’t think Goku is suddenly gonna lose his competence at fighting, but the fact that he is this strategic genius in all areas of martial arts is key to his character and makes him enjoyable to see in action, and this scene completely undermines that. It doesn’t help that the following training battle scene also shows Goku as a hotheaded, pratfalling brute compared to the calm and collected Vegeta.

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