The people who grew up with Censored and or modified Dragon Ball

[Cure Dragon 255]

I was VERY careful in picking the title for this thread, as I am with the tone I employ within it. I made a thread about the mainstream Popularity Dragon Ball got against the less successful franchises and I mentioned how Kunzait is so against this mainstream popularity and that he could write essay upon essay about the evils of the modifications Dragon Ball went through to get its big break and he still would be unable to change my mind. To make this extremely clear THIS IS NOT an attack on him. I oppose his stance, I dont think children embracing a piece of media as their own is bad.

Sure enough, with his trademark wit and a lot of politeness he disagreed that children getting into DB was good because he holds the opinion that the modifications created an arrested development fandom that sees kiddy shonen anime as the end all of Japanese entertment and entertainment in general.

But... is this really true? SURE he is right that there are plenty of rude, misinformed, childish fans... But to this I have many responses.

1-This is hardly the fault of Funimation. I think these people would have been this way even with the uncut Japanese staring at them.
2- I wont use the G word (Gatekeeping) because Mr Vegetto EX is right, it is a word many use to mean whatever they want. What I will do is just say that I think people getting into Dragon Ball is not an evil thing, especially if its children.
3-Last but not least. What about the sane not vocal minority fandom, that is sane, loves Dragon Ball but got into it via its modified form, but IS NOT childish, rude or dismissive. And actually enjoy adult media properly (Not just kiddie but bloody anime or Rick and Morty). They just have Dragon Ball as a very dear childhood memory.

I do have to stress I do not mean to look down on Kunzait, he's awesome and he makes threads a lot of fun. And his posts are always full of interesting insights, ESPECIALLY when he brings up facts from fandom before Funi and so on. I just meant my mind is already made up and he wont ever change it.

[Bloodthroe]

To me, the fandom for DB is a lot like the fandom for wrestling. DB is largely the same as wrestling. It focuses on exaggerated violence with shallow plots. The fans debate endlessly about who would beat who in a fight. It's all in good fun as long as you don't get personal about it. Does this mean there is something wrong with the fandom? No, it's just the nature of the product.

[GhostEmperorX]

So, the main question you have is if that specific point is true or not as to the present state of the NA DB/Z fandom being a direct result of the nepotism licensing company's mess of a job with holding the license to this series? I'll see if there's any good response I can give, although this likely should not have referred to another user by name.

Not sure if point #1 holds up all that well... there's a ton of things that would be different if not for Funimation and their amateur handling of DB/Z, such as the massively skewed viewpoint many people have of the series (among other things, of course). A lot of those people simply wouldn't even be fans of it (which, BTW, is completely OK, just means it isn't for them and there's plenty of other "fish in the sea", as it were). There are those out there who have stated as much.
With #2, children in other parts of the world did get into it (as everyone here already knows), so I don't think it was necessarily just the mere fact of children being part of the audience that was being referred to, but instead what was done (that wasn't necessitated by anything) so that it could air on a children's TV block in a particular country.
As for #3, a lot of those are likely not even really involved in these sorts of discussions on the net, or they don't have that great a focus on DB/Z.

Regarding the last statement, there's always the option to agree to disagree on it, but maybe not so much to restate it more than once (especially if it's not that visibly related to the topic at hand).

[JulieYBM]

As a girl that grew up on the Toonami run of Dragon Ball, I find that I have simply moved on from wanting to have the discussions and hold the #RighteousFury about the entie process of cultural whitewashing/homogenization censoring violence and shit that I did twenty years ago. I'm off creating and reading fun, new stories, in fields outside of 'battle shounen' (romance, babbbbbbbyyyyyyyy) and in general just want to focus on the things I like, unless there's a moral imperitive of some sort to put the bare minimum amount of effort into criticizing and hoping for better from the future (the treatment of the series' female and queer characters, et cetera).

I think that US-based fans (many of whom are vocal online), I wouldn't want to pin any surly behavior and/or views purely on Dragon Ball or its dub. There are so many factors at play for why you might come across a poster who is either one way or the other. The original Dragon Ball is hardly a well-crafted piece of work, after all, so to consider the FUNimation-produced version to be a catalyst for any modern lack of quality-standards among fans of Dragon Ball who participate in other fandoms is hardly a scientific survery.

Do fans have weird, headass takes that I don't agree with? Yes. Are all of them worthy of me posting about it? Not really, no. That being said, if anyone reading this is someone who wants to try stretching outside of the usual parameters of cartoons and comics for teen boys, I definitely suggest giving it a shot if you have the time. Shounen stories are so damned restrictive, especially the battle stories. Chainsaw Man is really perhaps the closest I've seen to some good innovation and even then, it has left JUMP to be published online to get away from the restrictions of JUMP.

I don't know. It might just be my ADHD, but I think I need a more specific thread of discussion before I can really formulate something substial to say on the subject. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure I know what the subject is. People who have a common element to their pasts always wind up with different views and understandings of those things, after all.

Eh. Who knows. I might have clearer thoughts later.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Sure enough, with his trademark wit and a lot of politeness he disagreed that children getting into DB was good because he holds the opinion that the modifications created an arrested development fandom that sees kiddy shonen anime as the end all of Japanese entertment and entertainment in general.

But... is this really true? SURE he is right that there are plenty of rude, misinformed, childish fans...

Sadly there has long been a stigma about anything animated being a product exclusively for children, so I think that even if Dragon Ball was given a primetime slot in the US like the Star Wars animated series (which some people who like Star Wars refuse to watch simply because they are "cartoons") and was presented in its uncut format that stereotype would still prevail among the general population. Hell, I've heard people say The Simpsons, a family show that anyone can enjoy is for kids, if it can't change the perception I don't think a battle shounen like Dragon Ball could. Its ignorance towards an entire medium, and tool for storytelling, which to this day prevents animated movies from winning Best Picture, even though many have deserved it.

An argument could be made that if Dragon Ball aired at later timeslots and was not cut and censored it would have been successful although not the monster hit it became and the fanbase would skew more toward the mature end of the spectrum. Would that have left us better off? Who really knows. We have massive fans, myself included who got into the series through watching it on kids TV, so the networks did something right, even if a certain portion of the fandom's perception of the show was changed by heavily altered dubs like Funimation's, but we have those dedicated fans today, who otherwise may have been aware of Dragon Ball but not have given it a chance the way they did.

[ABED]

Hell, I've heard people say The Simpsons, a family show that anyone can enjoy is for kids,

The Simpsons wasn't a family show. It aired on Fox on primetime because when it began, it was subversive and controversial and definitely for adults.

Dragon Ball is a kids show, but Japanese and American standards for children's programming are apparently very different.

[MasenkoHA]

Hell, I've heard people say The Simpsons, a family show that anyone can enjoy is for kids,

The Simpsons wasn't a family ghow. It aired on Fox on primetime because when it began, it was subversive and controversial and definitely for adults.

They had child size Bart t-shirts, Simpson arcade games, Burger King toys and what not, and for a while the show was heavily focused on Bart ,more than, say, Homer. It was at the very least aware kids were watching from very early on.

[ABED]

Hell, I've heard people say The Simpsons, a family show that anyone can enjoy is for kids,

The Simpsons wasn't a family show. It aired on Fox on primetime because when it began, it was subversive and controversial and definitely for adults.

They had child size Bart t-shirts, Simpson arcade games, Burger King toys and what not, and for a while the show was heavily focused on Bart ,more than, say, Homer. It was at the very least aware kids were watching from very early on.

Rambo, the Terminator, and Robocop all had children's toys. Rambo and Robocop also had cartoons also aimed at children. That isn't the deciding factor.

[dragonmagico]

the opinion that the modifications created an arrested development fandom that sees kiddy shonen anime as the end all of Japanese entertment and entertainment in general.

dragon ball has been a "kiddy shonen" since it was created back inthe 80s. way before any dub of it was ever made. its not some big adult epic story. Shōnen means boy, aka a male child, aka not an adult. Its literally been a child comic/cartoon since its creation. no amount of copium will change that.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know, I wasnt saying that it wasnt.


EDIT: Decided to explain exactly what I meant. What you said is what I meant, but I never said that its the dub's fault that people obsess over kiddy bloody shonen, anime, I meant that Kunzait said that or at least implied it.

EDIT 2: That's why my post says this

the opinion that the modifications created an arrested development fandom that sees kiddy shonen anime as the end all of Japanese entertment and entertainment in general.

And not

the fact that the modifications created an arrested development fandom that sees kiddy shonen anime as the end all of Japanese entertment and entertainment in general.

[dragonmagico]

Oh my bad I misunderstood. Yeah i agree with you 100% then. Anyone trying to imply it's the dubs fault a children's cartoon is seen as a children's cartoon needs to touch grass lol

[GhostEmperorX]

Oh my bad I misunderstood. Yeah i agree with you 100% then. Anyone trying to imply it's the dubs fault a children's cartoon is seen as a children's cartoon needs to touch grass lol

I think there might be a bit of a straw man here. Maybe it's because the ostensibly unrelated issue of adult entertainment and such keeps on getting brought up?

[Cure Dragon 255]

One thing I agree with Kunzait, fandoms can be awful. REAL AWFUL. Like his post where he tore that misogynistic slave apology series DearS
three new assholes in what is one of the best forum posts ever made. I know Kanzenshuu is awesome and its filled with nice people.

[GhostEmperorX]

One thing I agree with Kunzait, fandoms can be awful. REAL AWFUL.

Most of DB's across the net has demonstrated this well enough honestly. With regards to attitude primarily.
One could even say that they get what they deserve when the series gets treated terribly.

[Zephyr]

I never said that its the dub's fault that people obsess over kiddy bloody shonen, anime, I meant that Kunzait said that or at least implied it.

Not to speak for the guy, but from conversations I've had with him over the years (as well as simply re-reading his post from the other thread) I don't think that's what he's trying to say. To put this stuff in my own words:

There are two phenomena here:
1. people being mostly exposed to and interested in stuff that is created with the sensibilities of children in mind, even well into adulthood
2. Funimation & Saban's heavy revising of Dragon Ball Z

The heavily revised version of DBZ happened to cover the section of the story that treats "battle powers" like a super big deal, and that played on loop for a while on Toonami. So a lot of the English speaking fandom from that generation probably came out of it mistaken about how much importance battle powers were for the story itself. Not to mention, they didn't really have the chance to start at the beginning of the story, if they were watching Dragon Ball via what was airing on cable TV. This impacts the lenses that many people in the English speaking fandom use to engage with the material. See: the obsession with trying to convert "feats" into numerical scores and rankings, and the prevalence of people using these sorts of calculations as their primary vehicle for criticizing the writing of various works in the franchise.

The heavily revised version of DBZ aired on a children's block of a children's network. People who are mostly exposed to and interested in stuff made for kids probably saw the stuff they were exposed to and are interested in on children's networks. People who fixate on children's media would be fixating on children's media even if Dragon Ball never existed. But if DBZ was never heavily edited, it likely wouldn't have aired on said children's network, and thus people who were mostly exposed to stuff that aired on children's networks would have been way less likely to get into DBZ. Thus, the fandom would be proportionally less populated by people fixated on content made for children, and who examine media through the lenses of being fixated on content made for children. One result of this is that a lot of people in the fandom see Dragon Ball as a piece of media that is very influential to other stories made for children, like various Weekly Shonen Jump properties. And that's not incorrect, but it's only part of the picture, as Dragon Ball itself was heavily influenced by other stories not made for children, including a wealth of live action Chinese martial arts films. This obviously isn't to say that someone who isn't fixated on children's media would in turn automatically understand Dragon Ball's genre antecedents, just that they'd be in a much better position to know this.

One example where these two aspects kind of converge is when trying to discuss the differences, real or otherwise, between the story before Radtiz shows up, and the story after Raditz shows up. There's certainly a change in the production, as Toriyama has a new editor. But there are other changes that get emphasized only in the heavily revised version of DBZ. Z's musical score gets replaced, but DB's doesn't. Many may defend this, arguing that techno synth metal better fits a "sci-fi" series, while Kikuchi's score better fits the "fantasy martial arts" series. Embedded here is the suggestion that Dragon Ball Z is no longer a fantasy martial arts story, and is instead a "sci-fi action story". This assessment relies strongly on not being aware of the history of fantasy martial arts cinema, which includes things like flight, teleportation, and chi blasts. While not everyone who isn't fixated on media made for children will know this, someone who is fixated on media made for children is way more likely to not have seen fantasy martial arts movies from the 80's and earlier. This assessment also relies on not realizing how much science-fiction content was in Dragon Ball from the beginning, like hover cars and hoi poi capsules.

So, both phenomena do sort of intermingle here to make discussing Dragon Ball online in English speaking circles rather frustrating. But they are nonetheless different phenomena that are not necessarily causally linked. People would be fixating on children's media without DBZ being heavily revised by Funimation & Saban, but that heavily revised version was the way that a lot of people fixated on children's media got into it, and without that there'd be a lot less discussion of the work online that approaches the story from such a perspective.

[LoganForkHands73]

It’s always a little odd seeing a thread get made about a debate that took place in a completely different thread

I’m not sure how well this reflects Kunzait’s views but I will say I am very apathetic to the various discussions on how Western fans would have reacted to Dragon Ball in some alternate history where the presentation wasn’t butchered by some Texan dubbing studio. There’s really no way of saying anything for certain, it’s all just conjecture. And to speak selfishly, it doesn’t affect my life at all — I didn’t grow up watching Toonami and I never had much investment in the shitty dubbed versions of Dragon Ball Z to begin with.

As far as I know though, Kunzait has never squarely blamed Dragon Ball for the arrested development phenomena he frequently rants about. It’s a wider change in the culture that Dragon Ball is only a tiny prodrome of.

[MasenkoHA]

I’m not sure how well this reflects Kunzait’s views but I will say I am very apathetic to the various discussions on how Western fans would have reacted to Dragon Ball in some alternate history where the presentation wasn’t butchered by some Texan dubbing studio. There’s really no way of saying anything for certain, it’s all just conjecture. And to speak selfishly, it doesn’t affect my life at all — I didn’t grow up watching Toonami and I never had much investment in the shitty dubbed versions of Dragon Ball Z to begin with.

We can't say for 100 percent certainity but we have seen Dragon Ball Z with a more faithful dub succeed via the Ocean dub of the first 2 Z movies airing on Toonami and Kai on Nicktoons. Faithful scripts, Japanese music left intact, and editing only what was necessary to get the show broadcasted on kids tv.

It should go without saying if Dragon Ball was brought to North America exclusively for the home video market, like Kunzait suggested, it never would have been the mainstream kids anime phenomenon it was, but it definitely ,almost without a doubt,would have been a cult favorite amongst anime fans like Ranma 1/2 and Neon Genesis Evangelion. That isn't a bad thing.


And even if it was made for the home video market first it still could have ended up on tv later and find "mainstream" success that way. That's what happened with Tenchi Muyo (minus the mainstream success but it still found a wider audience and became well remembered by 90s millenials who otherwise never would have heard of it) the head of Toonami was such a big fan of the show he went through the extra trouble of making the dub acceptable for Y7 standards even going through the trouble of bringing the dub cast years after they did the dub to record alternate tv safe dialog for Toonami. I could easily see that happening to Dragon Ball in this hypothetical alternate timeline

[GhostEmperorX]

One example where these two aspects kind of converge is when trying to discuss the differences, real or otherwise, between the story before Radtiz shows up, and the story after Raditz shows up. There's certainly a change in the production, as Toriyama has a new editor. But there are other changes that get emphasized only in the heavily revised version of DBZ. Z's musical score gets replaced, but DB's doesn't. Many may defend this, arguing that techno synth metal better fits a "sci-fi" series, while Kikuchi's score better fits the "fantasy martial arts" series. Embedded here is the suggestion that Dragon Ball Z is no longer a fantasy martial arts story, and is instead a "sci-fi action story". This assessment relies strongly on not being aware of the history of fantasy martial arts cinema, which includes things like flight, teleportation, and chi blasts. While not everyone who isn't fixated on media made for children will know this, someone who is fixated on media made for children is way more likely to not have seen fantasy martial arts movies from the 80's and earlier. This assessment also relies on not realizing how much science-fiction content was in Dragon Ball from the beginning, like hover cars and hoi poi capsules.

With some of those elements being there right from day 1.
Also, the ironic thing is that Kikuchi himself actually changed his approach from DB to Z, which can be heard plenty in the movie scores, but he actually went on record saying "The story escalates upon entering into Z... (laughs) just how far is this going to go?" [Source: Interview at his house from 1993-12-22, transcribed in the booklet of COCC-11547~51, p. 19]
In particular, the themes focus a lot on antagonists, and as such take a darker turn than the original DB series on the regular.

It should go without saying if Dragon Ball was brought to North America exclusively for the home video market, like Kunzait suggested, it never would have been the mainstream kids anime phenomenon it was, but it definitely ,almost without a doubt,would have been a cult favorite amongst anime fans like Ranma 1/2 and Neon Genesis Evangelion. That isn't a bad thing.

This really cannot be emphasized enough. It also goes for those who say they "can't get into DBZ without these changes, it's just not for me". If that's the case, that really isn't the end, there's always the option to find something that is indeed to their liking.

[90sDBZ]

I've never been able to empathise with the idea that DB gaining mainstream popularity in the US was somehow a bad thing.

Countless fans have spoken out about how watching DB changed their lives for the better. There's been no end of stories about people turning their lives around after being inspired by the show. Everything from people starting to exercise more to people getting off drugs/alcohol because they happened to watch DB/Z on Toonami.

The idea that none of that matters and DB should have stayed niche just because doesn't sit right with me. Most of us wouldn't be on this forum if that's how things had gone.

[LoganForkHands73]

We can't say for 100 percent certainity but we have seen Dragon Ball Z with a more faithful dub succeed via the Ocean dub of the first 2 Z movies airing on Toonami and Kai on Nicktoons. Faithful scripts, Japanese music left intact, and editing only what was necessary to get the show broadcasted on kids tv.

It should go without saying if Dragon Ball was brought to North America exclusively for the home video market, like Kunzait suggested, it never would have been the mainstream kids anime phenomenon it was, but it definitely ,almost without a doubt,would have been a cult favorite amongst anime fans like Ranma 1/2 and Neon Genesis Evangelion. That isn't a bad thing.


And even if it was made for the home video market first it still could have ended up on tv later and find "mainstream" success that way. That's what happened with Tenchi Muyo (minus the mainstream success but it still found a wider audience and became well remembered by 90s millenials who otherwise never would have heard of it) the head of Toonami was such a big fan of the show he went through the extra trouble of making the dub acceptable for Y7 standards even going through the trouble of bringing the dub cast years after they did the dub to record alternate tv safe dialog for Toonami. I could easily see that happening to Dragon Ball in this hypothetical alternate timeline

I don't deny that the series could've been well-off by keeping its authenticity in the early dubs and whatnot. I definitely don't believe that Funimation was ever the sole arbiter of DBZ's success in the West as some claim.

I personally don't see why the show being a relatively obscure cult phenomenon is such a great thing, aside from some flight of fancy that it would erase the "undesirable" elements of the fandom and it would only be enjoyed by us rational, card-carrying, Kanzenshuu-scrolling adults. There's no guarantee that this would be the case. Is Dragon Ball's target demographic not kids and teenagers? Was it not basically created to have the widest, most mainstream appeal possible? I just can't see many realities where the show would be solely limited to home video.

I've never been able to empathise with the idea that DB gaining mainstream popularity in the US was somehow a bad thing.

Countless fans have spoken out about how watching DB changed their lives for the better. There's been no end of stories about people turning their lives around after being inspired by the show. Everything from people starting to exercise more to people getting off drugs/alcohol because they happened to watch DB/Z on Toonami.

The idea that none of that matters and DB should have stayed niche just because doesn't sit right with me. Most of us wouldn't be on this forum if that's how things had gone.

These are good points. We can sit and debate an It's a Wonderful Life reality where the show's presentation and reputation are so much purer — and, presumably, where very few of us would actually be here discussing the show on this forum in the first place — but like... who cares, really? It didn't happen and are we really that much worse off because of it, as either a society or individuals?

To me, it's not much different to the way fans endlessly discuss Toei's business model for the franchise and how much money it's making. Though at least with that, sales and profits can affect the future of the series, whereas this topic only concerns a past that never happened and a present we can never see.