Dragon Ball Without Its Creator

[MasenkoHA]

Didn't Daima have like 5 years of pre-production?
I think it'll be fine, and they straightened out everything they needed.
Doubt they'll cancel it at this point.

They've done too much animation to quit at this point lol.

And marketing and presumably licensing deals to get it released worldwide on its scheduled release date. Too much money has been thrown at Daima all they're probably going to do differently is add a Memoriam of Akira Toriyama at the beginning or end of the first episode.

[Grimlock]

The solution most definitely isn't to endlessly complain about it, but to present information in the best and most accessible way possible.
For example, there's a Wuxia thread that goes into exhaustive detail about where a lot of DB's creative DNA may have been rooted in, to be linked whenever there's any doubt about what may have come before and simply spun anew by the series.
Just wondering, have you made a thread or some other resource explaining exactly what the problem is and the solution if you have been bothered by it this much? Especially for those who may not come around here that often. And have you gone in depth about how it has affected the foreign animanga sphere beyond just DB?

No. But I did all that in many of my posts related to this matter. I can only lead you here, to all the occasions I mentioned the word "canon" so you can find all the discussions where I explained why canon is useless, nonsensical and a waste of everybody's time. You will even find a time where I had to explain the difference, using an actual dictionary, between "canonicity" and "continuity", which are two differents words, with different meanings, that people, to this very day, still conflate them as if they were synonymous.

I'm mainly just saying because I've found that the best solutions to these sorts of issues are to document information, provide sources where applicable, and even actually acquire official material to decipher what it may contain.
In particular I'm still in the process of re-evaluating just about everything I used to think about this franchise, especially based upon proper evidence and chronological perspective.

I have come to realize and accept that people are so close-minded and ingrained with this notion that I don't think anything that can be done would change their perception. While I complain about the frequency in which "this is cannon, that is not cannon!1!11!!1" appears in discussions, I'm not willing to stop reminding them that the reality is that there is no canon. And technically, the ones who should be posting sources are the ones who say that Dragon Ball has a canon. I can only do so much, and whatever I can do, I will certainly do it. But the "other side" also needs to have something that backs up whatever they claim, something I rarely see them doing, oddly enough.

[sangofe]

Didn't Daima have like 5 years of pre-production?
I think it'll be fine, and they straightened out everything they needed.
Doubt they'll cancel it at this point.

They've done too much animation to quit at this point lol.

And marketing and presumably licensing deals to get it released worldwide on its scheduled release date. Too much money has been thrown at Daima all they're probably going to do differently is add a Memoriam of Akira Toriyama at the beginning or end of the first episode.

It's very probable Toriyama finished Daima too, or at least a season where it can be ended.

[Innagadadavida]

I will continue to support Dragon Ball projects going forward. Many directors, producers, animators, and writers will come forward and put their own spin on Dragon Ball. Some of it will be bad, but some will be good too.

Look at Lupin the Third. It outlived the creator, Monkey Punch, but it still maintains a high level of quality, offers a lot of diverse stories, and honors Monkey Punch's legacy. Dragon Ball will be the same. It will outlive Toriyama, and even most of us.

I like the comparison to Lupin III because, while there have been some bad Lupin shows/movies/specials, there are always ones that come out that "get it" so to speak. The spirit of what makes Lupin III entertaining and endearing is generally understood and continues to be embodied through new adaptations. Not all of them, but enough that the series can't be written off. And in addition to that, there have been new Lupin III content that focus on side characters and expand the world in ways that could have never been done in decades past, such as the Fujiko Mine series. I would be thrilled to see something along those lines for animated Dragon Ball.

Super had Toriyama's story beats, and even some designs, but it was a very mixed bag. The movies he wrote, on the other hand, were good. Even though the general concepts seemed uninspired, repeating old ideas, Toriyama made them work.
[...]
tldr: I expect anime/movies to fall short without Toriyama. The manga, no matter how good it is in the future, will lose some of its legitimacy after Toriyama's passing.

It's very illustrative to have that direct comparison, for future projects. We know what a Broly movie without Toriyama's oversight is like, and we know what a Broly movie WITH Toriyama's oversight is like. I hope that can be used as an example for future directors of Dragon Ball media to demonstrate that intangible spirit of Dragon Ball.

It is farcical to have a conversation about "official" canon when it comes to Dragon Ball.

And yet... *Sigh*... We are still having it...! We will never be free of this embarassing bullshit, will we?

The conversation will continue, no matter how futile, because what folks are arguing for is not what they claim. What they're aruging for their personal vision to be the definitive interpretation of Dragon Ball. And that's never going to happen for anyone through online arguments. But it's highly personal, and highly motivating for some. Just look at the thread you linked, it was posted a day after this one and is already on course to overtake this thread in terms of engagement. And the topic is hardly different from the topic of this thread. That word "canon" means a lot to some people, because if one weilds the "official canon" then they can effectively shut down discussions they dislike by evoking "that's not canon, therefore doesn't matter".

What is and isn't "canon" was never very important to the author of Dragon Ball in the first place. Toriyama never wrote manga because he wanted to tell a significant story where the details mattered to the overall plot and theme... He wanted to make money and express his creativity. This is not One Piece. This is not The Bible. This is Dragon Ball. A silly, martial arts/wuxia story that at its best, never takes itself seriously. The concept of canon is for conversations about stories that take themselves very seriously.

Canon is personal when it comes to Dragon Ball. There is no authoritative source for what does and doesn't matter in the myriad of stories set in the Dragon Ball universe. Everyone gets to decide for themselves. I like that better anyway.

I'm mainly just saying because I've found that the best solutions to these sorts of issues are to document information, provide sources where applicable, and even actually acquire official material to decipher what it may contain.
In particular I'm still in the process of re-evaluating just about everything I used to think about this franchise, especially based upon proper evidence and chronological perspective.

I have come to realize and accept that people are so close-minded and ingrained with this notion that I don't think anything that can be done would change their perception. While I complain about the frequency in which "this is cannon, that is not cannon!1!11!!1" appears in discussions, I'm not willing to stop reminding them that the reality is that there is no canon. And technically, the ones who should be posting sources are the ones who say that Dragon Ball has a canon. I can only do so much, and whatever I can do, I will certainly do it. But the "other side" also needs to have something that backs up whatever they claim, something I rarely see them doing, oddly enough.

I agree. No matter how many official sources are provided, the debate will never end. You can't logic someone out of a position they've arrived at through emotion. This debate mirrors many others that have to do with belief, like religion or politics. No amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade a true believer.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Saying that "Dragon Ball has no canon" is like saying Dragon Ball has no source material or no context behind its origin and production, a complete dismissal of the manga.

[PowerPhantom245]

I don't think Toriyama would have had anything against a live action Dragon Ball movie, considering how much of a film buff he was I'd guess he would have embraced it provided a more faithful approach was taken. Sadly Fox never wanted his advice and that's why we ended up with the movie we got.

Battle of Gods was also going to be made with or without Toriyama but its probably good he stepped in, the original plan sounded more like a retread of the Baby arc.

Considering Toriyama never made any such claim he was against any and all potential live action adaptations that's one hell of a jump to make my guy.

Didn't know that was original plan for Battle of Gods.
Unpopular opinion, but that would have been better than what we got IMO.

Regards to live action movie, Toriyama NEVER mentioned anything about it again after interview during Battle of Gods, mentioning how he was displeased with Evolution. It's also possible due to Super and movies, he didn't have time to think about live action at all.

Speaking of Evolution, Justin Chatwin (Goku/"Geeku") paid tribute to Toriyama and apologized for the movie.
https://movieweb.com/dragonball-evoluti ... a-tribute/

I don't blame actor for bad movie and he didn't need to apologize, but it was nice that he paid tribute and acknowledge the movie.
Personally, I think Justin would have worked better for villain role, such as Android 17; seriously, he and Eriko Tanaka (Mai) would have been perfect casting for Android 17 and 18 respectively.

[Innagadadavida]

Saying that "Dragon Ball has no canon" is like saying Dragon Ball has no source material or no context behind its origin and production, a complete dismissal of the manga.

You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make, so I'll use your post as an example.

To *YOU* the manga is the "official canon"

To *SOMEONE ELSE* the "official canon" would be anything Toriyama worked on

To *SOMEONE ELSE ELSE* the "official canon" would be whatever happens in the dub of the anime

Do you see what I'm getting at? There is no "official canon" because no authoritative figure ever stepped in and said "this is the real Dragon Ball and everything else is to be disregarded"

You may decide to draw those lines wherever you wish.

And for whatever it means, no matter how much I think its useless to have the discussion, if there is an "official canon" the only thing that makes sense is the original manga run from 1984-1995. But again, that's not my opinion. I couldn't care less. I think the conversation is pointless.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Battle of Gods was also going to be made with or without Toriyama but its probably good he stepped in, the original plan sounded more like a retread of the Baby arc.

Didn't know that was original plan for Battle of Gods.
Unpopular opinion, but that would have been better than what we got IMO.

Yeah, Yūsuke Watanabe had this to say in an interview with regards to the goofier approach taken when Beerus was rewritten:

That was an element created entirely by Toriyama-sensei. I can’t write that. I felt that that kind of character, where you’d be in serious trouble if you came in contact with his wrath, was really like him. I had made Beerus more of a bad guy, and a kind of story where everyone is taken over and given an evil heart, but Toriyama-sensei in his way apparently felt that, “It’s after the earthquake, so I want it to be, not a tragic story, but a positive one,” and it came to have its present form.

Dark stories were never Toriyama's thing anyway, even way back when he praised the Bardock special he said he loved it but it wasn't what he would write and if he did he would have made it a less serious story, which is of course what he ended up doing with Dragon Ball Minus.

[Skar]

I think at most we'll get is a miniseries or occasional anniversary movie without Toriyama. There was less content overall in the ten years of the revival compared to the original series run. It was successful for a legacy series but it's unlikely the movies would've grossed as much or manga sold as many copies without Toriyama's involvement. I don't mean necessarily quality and just that more fans would be invested when the original author is involved vs something deemed more as a spinoff or side story.

The series is close the ending of the original manga anyway and Toriyama made it clear he wasn't interested in going past it. I can't see another attempt at a sequel like GT being successful especially since it at least some minor contribution from Toriyama at the beginning. A few major Hollywood franchises have had some flops recently so I don't think any franchise is immune if enough fans get the impression that the studio is milking it and churning out anything they assume could make some money.

[Vegetto95]

You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make, so I'll use your post as an example.

To *YOU* the manga is the "official canon"

To *SOMEONE ELSE* the "official canon" would be anything Toriyama worked on

To *SOMEONE ELSE ELSE* the "official canon" would be whatever happens in the dub of the anime

Do you see what I'm getting at? There is no "official canon" because no authoritative figure ever stepped in and said "this is the real Dragon Ball and everything else is to be disregarded"

You may decide to draw those lines wherever you wish.

And for whatever it means, no matter how much I think its useless to have the discussion, if there is an "official canon" the only thing that makes sense is the original manga run from 1984-1995. But again, that's not my opinion. I couldn't care less. I think the conversation is pointless.

It's funny, there was one time on Reddit where I got into it with several "canon" adherents because, like you, I claimed that there is no canon and it's ridiculous that people WILL NOT shut up about it, and OF COURSE, I got severe pushback (the r/dbz subreddit is pretty cancerous in general though, and I had to quit that place for my sanity quite a ways back lol), but one particular response was especially telling.

I had one person link to official statements by both Tōei and Shūeisha from 2018 and 2015 respectively, the former proclaiming that Dragon Ball Super: Broli is indeed an addition to the "canon", and the latter that the Dragon Ball Super manga is likewise, along with evidence that the Japanese word that was being used in the statements (I forget what it was) can indeed be accurately translated as "canon".

And of course, this was used as a debate-ending "Gotcha!!" against me, basically to say "See! Look! You're wrong! There ARE official statements about what is 'canon'!" And I'm like... "Cool. Awesome. But, see... there's a bit of a problem. Neither of those two statements actually offered ANY explanation whatsoever as to what this 'canon' even actually fucking IS. Both statements are written to say that they're being added to a PRE-EXISTING 'canon', but neither makes the effort to say what's ALREADY IN that 'canon'. Show me when Tōei and Shūeisha concretely laid down EXACTLY EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE Dragon Ball franchise since 19fucking84 that's 'canon' and 'non-canon', and THEN we can have this conversation for real."

And of course, they never responded... because there IS no such statement. All Tōei and Shūeisha did with those statements was fling around the term "canon" as a meaningless buzzword, NO different than so many fans do, which sadly adds fuel to this fire that never should have been lit in the first place.

And to your point, I've seen 'em fucking ALL. ALL shapes and sizes from ALL walks of life: I've seen people who cherry-pick the DB and DBZ anime to say that "everything that happened in the anime that also happened in the manga is 'canon', and anything that was anime-only material is 'non-canon'!!"...you know, despite the fact that Kai proved with it's horribly slipshod, haphazard, lackluster editing that it's impossible to actually make the anime 1:1 with the manga because there are just too many minor differences spread throughout.

I've seen people who think that Kai is canon but not Z (who of course never mention as to where that leaves Dragon Ball?). I've seen people who think that only the Super anime is canon, despite the presence of several concepts and characters, such as Gregory, Pizza, Caroni, and Piroshki, that were only in the anime filler in DB and Z that they all think is "non-canon". I've seen people who think that only the Super manga is canon. I've seen people with all sorts of combinations as to what's canon between the Super TV series, manga, and movies. And of course, I've seen TIME AND TIME AGAIN people who say that "EVERYTHING that Toriyama made is 'canon' and NOTHING else! And that includes ALL of Super because he was involved!!" You know... despite the fact that Toriyama ACTUALLY had barely any direct involvement on ANY of Super, and really, his level of involvement rarely if ever passed the point of a few character designs, a few brief story ideas, and a few brief rewrites. Soooo... basically the level of involvement he had with Z's filler. And Z's movies. And GT. Are THOSE "canon" as a result? Not according to these people, despite them otherwise completely matching their stated criteria. And that's the most frustrating thing... there's virtually ZERO consistency with ANY of these people's arguments, and yet they WILL. NOT. STOP. Making them!!

Hell, I've even LEGITIMATELY seen MULTIPLE people claim that NEITHER the Super anime or manga is canon, and ONLY Toriyama's notes-on-a-napkin rough story outlines are "canon"!! Like, COME ON! Imaging using that "logic" on ANYTHING ELSE!! Imaging someone telling you that the finished, released movie of Natural Born Killers as directed by Oliver Stone is "non-canon" and that only Tarantino's original script is "truly canon". Or the same with Assassins as directed by Richard Donner, and that only the Wachowski sisters' original script is "canon". It's an ABSURD argument to make. Or really, because at least Super had Toriyama give final sign-off to the finished product regardless of medium, you can apply that to any movie or show. Imagine someone legitimately, totally non-ironically telling you that they don't believe the original Star Wars film is "canon", and that the only thing that's REALLY "canon" is "Adventures of the Starkiller from the Journey of the Wills, Saga I: The Star Wars", which is an earlier script draft from two years earlier. They'd be laughed outta the fucking room for such a ridiculous insinuation, and rightfully so.

Like, maybe... JUST MAYBE!!!... could it ACTUALLY be POSSIBLE that.... ... .... NO ONE at Tōei OR Shūeisha ACTUALLY gives a flying fuck about "canon" and "non-canon"????? Not Toriyama, not Toyotarō, not Iyoku, not Yamamuro, not Koyama, NO ONE?? Because they fucking DON'T. They're all just doing their own thing whenever they want. Yeah, I KNOW Super's continuity is a fucking MESS. I KNOW there's THREE different fucking versions of God and God/Battle of Gods between the movie, TV series, and manga. I KNOW that the manga skips over retelling the Broli movie and only briefly references it happening, but retells Super Hero in its entirety, despite the Super Hero movie being a direct sequel to the Broli movie. I know, I know, I know. Tōei and Shūeisha have made an ABSOLUTE FUCKING MESS out of the Dragon Ball franchise over the past decade, and many fans feels they need to try and establish THE ONE TRUE CONTINUITY!!!!!!! to make sense of it all. But like Grimlock keeps saying, CONTINUITY and CANON and NOT the same thing AT ALL. And no one can fucking agree on their definition of "canon" because, again, it GREEEAAATLY varies from person to person (so, really, it's all more "headcanon" than anything) because the companies in charge of the series just don't care like the fans (inexplicably and nonsensically) do.

Besides... what ACTUALLY HAPPENS when you've cracked the code? Let's say someone truly does FINALLY figure it out for fuckin' REALZIEZ... they figure out what's TRULY "canon". Okay... cool. What then? So you've figured out that these three or four things are "canon", and all the DOZENS AND DOZENS of TV series, specials, movies, OVAs, video games, spinoff manga, etc are ALL non-canon. So basically, 98% of the franchise is "non-canon". Sooooo... what? What do you DO with that information? How does that CHANGE ANYTHING? AT ALL? I don't fucking GET IT. The whole canonicity argument is completely 100% fucking POOOOINTLEEEESSS. Just... enjoy the parts of the franchise that you like, and feel free to dislike anything that you think doesn't hold up OWN ITS OWN MERIT, and NOT because of any arbitrary notions of it "not being canon". It's SO GODDAMN SIMPLE... and yet these people just continue to make it so fucking complicated for no goddamn good reason. It's frankly frustrating and exhausting.

[VegettoEX]

There is absolutely no reason to be disparaging other communities or other individuals and speaking so rudely over a simple conversation that relates to the devastating passing of a creator. I understand emotions can/may be raw, but this is not the way.

[Vegard Aune]

Dark stories were never Toriyama's thing anyway, even way back when he praised the Bardock special he said he loved it but it wasn't what he would write and if he did he would have made it a less serious story, which is of course what he ended up doing with Dragon Ball Minus.

Yeah, I think the only thing Toriyama directly worked on that was that grim would be the Future Trunks arc, and even there Toriyama only wrote the broad strokes. In one of the interviews between him and Toyotaro (volume 4 of the manga, I believe?) he even admitted that, had he actually been doing the whole story, he doubts he would have been able to properly depict Zamasu's gradual descent from "righteous god" to "omnicidal villain". Like, it was a very un-Toriyama kind of story that Toriyama himself did not think he would be able to execute on his own.

[Innagadadavida]

Yeah, I think the only thing Toriyama directly worked on that was that grim would be the Future Trunks arc, and even there Toriyama only wrote the broad strokes. In one of the interviews between him and Toyotaro (volume 4 of the manga, I believe?) he even admitted that, had he actually been doing the whole story, he doubts he would have been able to properly depict Zamasu's gradual descent from "righteous god" to "omnicidal villain". Like, it was a very un-Toriyama kind of story that Toriyama himself did not think he would be able to execute on his own.

What I like about Toriyama is his openness to other artistic visions within Dragon Ball. He has a broad idea of tone and themes, but other than that he's happy and supportive to let other creatives do what they wish. From what I can tell, he was always generally honest about his opinions. He certainly stuck to a "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" kind of attitude, but he often did have nice things to say. He complimented the character arc of Zamasu. He enjoyed the Bardock special. And despite admitting that it wasn't something he would have done, he enjoyed them. His public statements as such, in some ways, gave them his blessing.

I just really like how he was open to let others add their ideas to the series. He was always willing to share, even if it was just so he didn't have to do more work . That's not to say he didn't care, because he did establish firm guard rails though his intervention in the films and TV series post-manga. That was very impactful and I think it matters a lot, in terms of keeping the series tonally aligned with his vision for the future.

[Zekken]

Toriyama allowed Toyotaro to write his own stuff in his own 1984-1995 Dragon World. Thats basically proof enough for anyone who needs it.

If you want more Toriyama Dragon ball that is sadly over. But if you want more Dragon ball in general Toyotaro is 100% the man to carry it forward.

[FoolsGil]

I sort of wonder if Toei might make a move, things go like Succession and there's back door politics and back stabbings, and they try to oust Toyotaro and input a mangaka who they trust. I would also wonder if Toriyama's wife and kids would back Toyotaro up and say he's the successor to the series, or alternatively if they would side with Toei. And of course there's Akio Iyoku, who has his own machinations.

[LoganForkHands73]

You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make, so I'll use your post as an example.

To *YOU* the manga is the "official canon"

To *SOMEONE ELSE* the "official canon" would be anything Toriyama worked on

To *SOMEONE ELSE ELSE* the "official canon" would be whatever happens in the dub of the anime

Do you see what I'm getting at? There is no "official canon" because no authoritative figure ever stepped in and said "this is the real Dragon Ball and everything else is to be disregarded"

You may decide to draw those lines wherever you wish.

And for whatever it means, no matter how much I think its useless to have the discussion, if there is an "official canon" the only thing that makes sense is the original manga run from 1984-1995. But again, that's not my opinion. I couldn't care less. I think the conversation is pointless.

It's funny, there was one time on Reddit where I got into it with several "canon" adherents because, like you, I claimed that there is no canon and it's ridiculous that people WILL NOT shut up about it, and OF COURSE, I got severe pushback (the r/dbz subreddit is pretty cancerous in general though, and I had to quit that place for my sanity quite a ways back lol), but one particular response was especially telling.

I had one person link to official statements by both Tōei and Shūeisha from 2018 and 2015 respectively, the former proclaiming that Dragon Ball Super: Broli is indeed an addition to the "canon", and the latter that the Dragon Ball Super manga is likewise, along with evidence that the Japanese word that was being used in the statements (I forget what it was) can indeed be accurately translated as "canon".

And of course, this was used as a debate-ending "Gotcha!!" against me, basically to say "See! Look! You're wrong! There ARE official statements about what is 'canon'!" And I'm like... "Cool. Awesome. But, see... there's a bit of a problem. Neither of those two statements actually offered ANY explanation whatsoever as to what this 'canon' even actually fucking IS. Both statements are written to say that they're being added to a PRE-EXISTING 'canon', but neither makes the effort to say what's ALREADY IN that 'canon'. Show me when Tōei and Shūeisha concretely laid down EXACTLY EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE Dragon Ball franchise since 19fucking84 that's 'canon' and 'non-canon', and THEN we can have this conversation for real."

And of course, they never responded... because there IS no such statement. All Tōei and Shūeisha did with those statements was fling around the term "canon" as a meaningless buzzword, NO different than so many fans do, which sadly adds fuel to this fire that never should have been lit in the first place.

And to your point, I've seen 'em fucking ALL. ALL shapes and sizes from ALL walks of life: I've seen people who cherry-pick the DB and DBZ anime to say that "everything that happened in the anime that also happened in the manga is 'canon', and anything that was anime-only material is 'non-canon'!!"...you know, despite the fact that Kai proved with it's horribly slipshod, haphazard, lackluster editing that it's impossible to actually make the anime 1:1 with the manga because there are just too many minor differences spread throughout.

I've seen people who think that Kai is canon but not Z (who of course never mention as to where that leaves Dragon Ball?). I've seen people who think that only the Super anime is canon, despite the presence of several concepts and characters, such as Gregory, Pizza, Caroni, and Piroshki, that were only in the anime filler in DB and Z that they all think is "non-canon". I've seen people who think that only the Super manga is canon. I've seen people with all sorts of combinations as to what's canon between the Super TV series, manga, and movies. And of course, I've seen TIME AND TIME AGAIN people who say that "EVERYTHING that Toriyama made is 'canon' and NOTHING else! And that includes ALL of Super because he was involved!!" You know... despite the fact that Toriyama ACTUALLY had barely any direct involvement on ANY of Super, and really, his level of involvement rarely if ever passed the point of a few character designs, a few brief story ideas, and a few brief rewrites. Soooo... basically the level of involvement he had with Z's filler. And Z's movies. And GT. Are THOSE "canon" as a result? Not according to these people, despite them otherwise completely matching their stated criteria. And that's the most frustrating thing... there's virtually ZERO consistency with ANY of these people's arguments, and yet they WILL. NOT. STOP. Making them!!

Hell, I've even LEGITIMATELY seen MULTIPLE people claim that NEITHER the Super anime or manga is canon, and ONLY Toriyama's notes-on-a-napkin rough story outlines are "canon"!! Like, COME ON! Imaging using that "logic" on ANYTHING ELSE!! Imaging someone telling you that the finished, released movie of Natural Born Killers as directed by Oliver Stone is "non-canon" and that only Tarantino's original script is "truly canon". Or the same with Assassins as directed by Richard Donner, and that only the Wachowski sisters' original script is "canon". It's an ABSURD argument to make. Or really, because at least Super had Toriyama give final sign-off to the finished product regardless of medium, you can apply that to any movie or show. Imagine someone legitimately, totally non-ironically telling you that they don't believe the original Star Wars film is "canon", and that the only thing that's REALLY "canon" is "Adventures of the Starkiller from the Journey of the Wills, Saga I: The Star Wars", which is an earlier script draft from two years earlier. They'd be laughed outta the fucking room for such a ridiculous insinuation, and rightfully so.

Like, maybe... JUST MAYBE!!!... could it ACTUALLY be POSSIBLE that.... ... .... NO ONE at Tōei OR Shūeisha ACTUALLY gives a flying fuck about "canon" and "non-canon"????? Not Toriyama, not Toyotarō, not Iyoku, not Yamamuro, not Koyama, NO ONE?? Because they fucking DON'T. They're all just doing their own thing whenever they want. Yeah, I KNOW Super's continuity is a fucking MESS. I KNOW there's THREE different fucking versions of God and God/Battle of Gods between the movie, TV series, and manga. I KNOW that the manga skips over retelling the Broli movie and only briefly references it happening, but retells Super Hero in its entirety, despite the Super Hero movie being a direct sequel to the Broli movie. I know, I know, I know. Tōei and Shūeisha have made an ABSOLUTE FUCKING MESS out of the Dragon Ball franchise over the past decade, and many fans feels they need to try and establish THE ONE TRUE CONTINUITY!!!!!!! to make sense of it all. But like Grimlock keeps saying, CONTINUITY and CANON and NOT the same thing AT ALL. And no one can fucking agree on their definition of "canon" because, again, it GREEEAAATLY varies from person to person (so, really, it's all more "headcanon" than anything) because the companies in charge of the series just don't care like the fans (inexplicably and nonsensically) do.

Besides... what ACTUALLY HAPPENS when you've cracked the code? Let's say someone truly does FINALLY figure it out for fuckin' REALZIEZ... they figure out what's TRULY "canon". Okay... cool. What then? So you've figured out that these three or four things are "canon", and all the DOZENS AND DOZENS of TV series, specials, movies, OVAs, video games, spinoff manga, etc are ALL non-canon. So basically, 98% of the franchise is "non-canon". Sooooo... what? What do you DO with that information? How does that CHANGE ANYTHING? AT ALL? I don't fucking GET IT. The whole canonicity argument is completely 100% fucking POOOOINTLEEEESSS. Just... enjoy the parts of the franchise that you like, and feel free to dislike anything that you think doesn't hold up OWN ITS OWN MERIT, and NOT because of any arbitrary notions of it "not being canon". It's SO GODDAMN SIMPLE... and yet these people just continue to make it so fucking complicated for no goddamn good reason. It's frankly frustrating and exhausting.

Man, so many of your comments have severe “we have a Kunzait comment at home” energy (I can’t be the only one who’s noticed this). CAPITALISING EVERY OTHER WORD and swearing a bunch doesn’t aid whatever points you’re making, nor does it make you look hard.

I too think people’s fixation on canon above quality is detrimental, and I’ve also seen similar baffling arguments pertaining to Toriyama’s involvement (the napkin notes we’ve never actually seen being the “true canon”, etc) but I really fail to understand why it seems to have enraged you to such a cataclysmically nuclear degree. It might help to reflect on your own disproportionate reaction here.

I can at least understand the root appeal of why some people are so fixated on canon even if I don’t agree with all their conclusions. I think there can be value in individual creators having a “canon” of official works, though such ideas inevitably get messy when applied to massive multimedia franchises with no unifying voice. Dragon Ball arguably once had something like that, but not anymore. But really, it’s pretty impossible to argue one way or the other when there’s no opposing side here to even argue against. Not to disparage r/DBZ too much, but it’s really not the best place to discuss anything substantive, it’s more of a casual fanart sharing sub.

[GhostEmperorX]

There is absolutely no reason to be disparaging other communities or other individuals and speaking to rudely over a simple conversation that relates to the devastating passing of a creator. I understand emotions can/may be raw, but this is not the way.

It's most definitely not the time either, for this or any other of the usual disputes.
I even thought it was in bad taste when there was a post (in this same thread) saying the following:

He dies without establishing a canon, and as I have been saying here, this is going to open up a whole lot of cans of worm.

Can't really let this one slide. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the discussion.

[Vegetto95]

Man, so many of your comments have severe “we have a Kunzait comment at home” energy (I can’t be the only one who’s noticed this).

I guess he and I just think and write alike?

I too think people’s fixation on canon above quality is detrimental, and I’ve also seen similar baffling arguments pertaining to Toriyama’s involvement (the napkin notes we’ve never actually seen being the “true canon”, etc) but I really fail to understand why it seems to have enraged you to such a cataclysmically nuclear degree. It might help to reflect on your own disproportionate reaction here.

I had no intention of putting across the notion that I'm enraged at any of this. Do the "canon"-obsessives annoy, exhaust, and frustrate me at times, as I said? Absolutely. Do they legitimately ENRAGE me? Hell no lol. Please don't mistake my frequent use of multiple exclamation points, all caps words, and swearing for anything even in the vicinity of anger... they're there for emphasis only. If you think I'm trying to look like a badass or some incredibly immature thing like that, you've got me all wrong. I'm a very animated speaker with a strong sailor's mouth, and I simply write how I talk in real life

If my way of writing is deemed inappropriate and a mod contacts me about it or something, I'm totally willing to tone it down a bit. But I have not insulted anyone personally, and am simply expressing my frustration with a line of thinking that I find pointless and distracting, as well as the incompetence of the people in charge of producing the series that has made that line of thinking more frustratingly common. Any perceived rudeness in my speech was NEVER aimed at anyone specific, and if I did happen to offend anyone, I apologize. But again... I have my opinions about the whole topic of "canon" as it pertains to Dragon Ball no different from anyone else, and this is a thread where that has been brought up before I put in my two cents. That's all I was ever trying to discuss.

But anyway, my main issue is that I've seen people comment on "canon" SOOOOOOO much, just about everywhere a conversation about Dragon Ball is taking place, often regardless of whether it was part of the subject to begin with, each acting like what they say is "canon" or "non-canon" is true despite having zero proof whatsoever , and it's just like... who cares?? WHY does the supposed "canonicity" of anything in the DB franchise matter SO GODDAMN MUCH to SO many people? Especially since, for some reason I can't fathom, "non-canon" is often used by these people in a derogatory way, to basically say "See, this show/movie actually sucks because it's not canon anymore!" or some shit like that. Obviously not all of them do so, but I've definitely seen MORE than my fair share of those who do, and it's frankly just such an asinine way of thinking.

Like, for example, even if GT is somehow "non-canon" (which has NEVER been actually said by ANY official source btw, despite the countless LEEEEEGIOOOOONS of fans repeatedly claiming that it is ad fucking nauseum for the last decade)... what does that ACTUALLY change about it? It doesn't at all change what it's been since 1996... an anime-exclusive sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime. So many fans I've seen act like the existence of Super completely negates GT, but all it actually does is make it so that GT's not the ONLY anime sequel to Z anymore (although, technically Super's more of a midquel). That's it. And yet I see so many act like being "non-canon" is akin to being eternally sentenced to the Dreadful Death Zone of You-Don't-Fucking-Matter-Anymore-Hahahahahaaaa. Again... despite NONE of their claims of canonicity every being in any way officially substantiated.

What's more, I DO NOT remember seeing the whole "canon" discussion ANYWHERE NEEEEEEAAAAR as insanely fucking much pre-Super. I definitely saw it on RARE occasion even back to the early-mid 2000s due to the differences between the manga and anime and the weirdness of the DB and Z movies, but it just fuckin' SKYROCKETED like crazy a few years into Super's existence, which is just one more thing added to the already huge pile of "Reasons Why I Despise Dragon Ball Super" lol

Like, even over 25 years into the dub's existence, the divide between dub fans and Japanese version fans is still quite strong, and the misinformation spread by the dub is still rampant among the collective fanbase's perception of the series. We STILL have that to worry about to a degree that is patently fucking ridiculous all these years and YEARS later... it's just kinda annoying to, in ADDITION to that, have the whole pointless "cAnoN" bullshit be such an equally present and unpleasant mudpit to wade through all the time when trying to have conversations about this franchise. And hell, for once that shit ain't even FUNimation's fault in this case... it's fuckin' Tōei's and Shūeisha's. (And obviously it's the fans most of all... but the series creators are ABSOLUTELY to blame for making Super such a convoluted fucking MESS).

[Bardock God of Time]

I have a feeling the Super manga will end in 1 & a half arcs

1 arc being the Black Frieza thing and a partial arc just retelling End of Z with some characters added to the ending. (Beerus, Jaco, 17)

Didn't Toriyama not want the series to go past the End of Z? I hope shueisha or whoever honors his wish.

[SupremeKai25]

What's more, I DO NOT remember seeing the whole "canon" discussion ANYWHERE NEEEEEEAAAAR as insanely fucking much pre-Super. I definitely saw it on RARE occasion even back to the early-mid 2000s due to the differences between the manga and anime and the weirdness of the DB and Z movies, but it just fuckin' SKYROCKETED like crazy a few years into Super's existence, which is just one more thing added to the already huge pile of "Reasons Why I Despise Dragon Ball Super" lol

You can't hate the SERIES for what its FANDOM does. The "Canon" debacle is a Community-generated debacle. Super by itself is harmless; while it cannot possibly be reconciled with GT in the exact same world (Unless everyone suddenly got amnesia and Beerus went back to sleep and whatnot), it doesn't go out of its way to erase GT from existence. In fact, through Xenoverse 2 (one of the most popular and mainstream Anime videogames of the 2010s), the Super and GT worlds are actually linked, with the GT characters (including GT Adult Trunks) giving their energy so that Super Future Trunks can defeat Super Fused Zamasu with the spirit sword; a videogame adaptation of Super's Zamasu arc, that nonetheless takes GT into account:

https://youtu.be/oAnG924WFq8?t=89


Super in itself is an harmless show. Toriyama in 2013 shouldn't have been constrained by the boundaries set by GT back in 1997. You can't hate Super just because it introduced elements that are incompatible with GT, that is an inevitability. Nor would it be fair to argue that Super should have never existed because it contradicts GT's plot points.

At the same time, You can't hate Super for the fandom taking the Canon debacle to the extreme. The writers of Super clearly are not corroborating that debacle.

I think you are being way too unfair towards Super, almost hating it just for existing (and thus, GT no longer being the only "sequel" to DBZ). The Super series in itself is harmless and doesn't invalidate GT's existence and the GT nostalgia for those who are feeling nostalgic about it. This whole "Canon" debacle is a Community-generated debate.