The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[Jiren The Alpha]

So if the Old Broly is so good, wouldn't this mean that the franchise is in good hands (Toei's)?

I mean, the beloved and popular DBZ Broly was 100% a Toei creation.

The character design was Toriyama's, which was the only thing carring Broly's popularity, because Takao Koyama storytelling surely did not.

Actually, what carried Broly was his personality (his edgy/cool one-liners) and his fighting style as a crazy brawler who completely dominated the opposition.

Did anyone ever complain that DBZ Broly """"did not feel like tRuE Dragon Ball"""" ?

If Broly looked like Donald Duck and did all that, he would not have this big of a fanbase.

And you should not take people's opinion on a show seriously when they only know half of the story. You should just laugh and move on to talk to people with more credibility.

[tonysoprano300]

[/b]

The character design was Toriyama's, which was the only thing carring Broly's popularity, because Takao Koyama storytelling surely did not.

Actually, what carried Broly was his personality (his edgy/cool one-liners) and his fighting style as a crazy brawler who completely dominated the opposition.

Did anyone ever complain that DBZ Broly """"did not feel like tRuE Dragon Ball"""" ?

If Broly looked like Donald Duck and did all that, he would not have this big of a fanbase.

And you should not take people's opinion on a show seriously when they only know half of the story. You should just laugh and move on to talk to people with more credibility.

Pretty much. Id argue that Broly wasn’t even the real antagonist in both the Z(movie 8)and Super depictions. Its mostly Paragus, Broly is just the frankenstein monster he unleashes.

That said I can certainly understand why the character is so beloved, he is just cool to watch. Did we need 4 movies featuring him? That I'm not sure about

[SupremeKai25]

[/b]

The character design was Toriyama's, which was the only thing carring Broly's popularity, because Takao Koyama storytelling surely did not.

Actually, what carried Broly was his personality (his edgy/cool one-liners) and his fighting style as a crazy brawler who completely dominated the opposition.

Did anyone ever complain that DBZ Broly """"did not feel like tRuE Dragon Ball"""" ?

If Broly looked like Donald Duck and did all that, he would not have this big of a fanbase.

And you should not take people's opinion on a show seriously when they only know half of the story. You should just laugh and move on to talk to people with more credibility.

Well, No, that's not a valid argument, because I could also just say:

"If the only thing Broly said was the word Kakarot, he would not have this big of a fanbase."

"If Broly was a pushover, he would not have this big of a fanbase"

Ultimately, Toei still did at least 70% of the work on Broly, giving him a badass personality and entertaining fighting style.

Toriyama didn't really have much to do with Broly besides the design, yet Broly is one of the most popular villains in the franchise, surpassing even Toriyama-original Cell and Frieza in certain polls.

So clearly Toei gets the Dragon Ball formula right.

[ABED]

Aesthetics are important. Broly has an amazing design. It's not his personality that made him a big deal. It's his look and that he's a wrecking machine.

Designs matter a lot. Eye catching memorable designs are INCREDIBLY important, especially in animation. Boba Fett is a big deal almost entirely due to his design.

[MasenkoHA]

. Did we need 4 movies featuring him? That I'm not sure about

Especially since Z movie 10 could have easily replaced him with evil volcano god and Z movie 11 could have replaced him with doomsday monster of science. Like Venom he became a victim of his own popularity and showed up more than he needed to

[JulieYBM]

We needed four Broli movies because he's sexy.

I'm just glad we didn't get a fourth Broli film with fucking modern Yamamuro Tadayoshi designing him and correcting the animation.

[tonysoprano300]

That is the correct answer lol

I'm just hoping that if we get another DB film, that they go with a completely original antagonist like BOG(I love Beerus) did rather than just reimaginings of existing characters.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of Broly, he became popular because of his design, his perceived badassery, his status as an evil Super Saiyan, and the fact that he’s one of the few movie villains to have a fairly fleshed out backstory. There’s even an element of tragedy to said backstory, which is the kind of thing fanfic writers love.

Personally, I actually kind of prefer the old Broly over Toriyama’s Broly, at least in terms of Movie 8 specifically. Super Broly sort of gives off AU fanfic vibes to me.

[Civic]

Because mostly this discussion was based on complaining about Toriyame, complaining about TOP, complaining about Toriyama's way of writing, complaining about Goku, complaining about DBS, complaining that DB died 1995.

This thread is one big complaint, complaining can't be fun because it's constantly pointing out the same things you don't like.

Why are you surprised? This is a tale as old as BoG.

A noticeable subset of DBZ fans are gate-keepers. They grew up watching DBZ and refuse to accept anything that takes place after 1995. Or 1997, if they grew up with DBZ AND DBGT.

An example: Search "Trunks kills Cell in the Future" on Youtube. Look how many comments are disgruntled and nostalgic fans saying nonsense like "I refuse to accept that DBS Trunks is the same as DBZ Trunks" or "I refuse to accept all the nonsense with Black/Zamasu, this is where Trunks' story ends."

Another example is Broly. Plenty of disgruntled and nostalgic fans refuse to accept the New Broly. They will say nonsense like "DBZ Broly will always be the true/only Broly to me."

They wallow in their nostalgia and childhood. They literally cannot accept the existence of Super, because it does not fit their parameters of what """True""" Dragon Ball is (aka Did I grow up with it in the 1980s/1990s? Do I feel nostalgia for it?).

Gate-keeping, Gate-keeping everywhere within the Dragon Ball fandom. According to some people, it's not """""tRuE"""" Dragon Ball unless they grew up with it/they have childhood nostalgia about it.

It's impossible to have a discussion about Dragon Ball Super or any aspect of it without at least one nostalgic/disgruntled old fan randomly saying "True!!! Dragon Ball ended in 1995, this is not Dragon Ball".

I only see the gate-keeping worsening now.

The sad thing is that in the 3 years I've been here I've seen more complaints about the work of Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro whether it's the original DB run 84/95, GT or Super.

I don't think I've ever seen honest posts and comments here from people writing that they love Dragon Ball, or people writing posts about why Dragon Ball is cool and worth watching. Especially now after Toriyama's death when people have already started writing in this topic that they're already going to give a shit about Dragon Ball because Toriyama won't be working on it anymore.

If I were a new fan and out of curiosity I went into this forum and read 1/3 of this discussion I would think Dragon Ball sucks.

I'm a huge DB fan but I only stop in here from time to time precisely because of the negativity here. Sometimes there are interesting conversations but too often they devolve into canon arguments or sub/dub snobbery. I just don't want that shit in a thing I want to enjoy.

[JulieYBM]

Plenty of people go on-and-on about how much they love Dragon Ball on this forum all the time, the extended discussion typically just blooms out of discussing our criticisms because that's what leads to extended discussion. You can only say, "Wow, I sure do love [x]!" so many times and reply, "Yeah, that's so cool that you love [x]!" so many times.

[Civic]

It's possible to have extended discussions without being negative.

[tonysoprano300]

On the subject of Broly, he became popular because of his design, his perceived badassery, his status as an evil Super Saiyan, and the fact that he’s one of the few movie villains to have a fairly fleshed out backstory. There’s even an element of tragedy to said backstory, which is the kind of thing fanfic writers love.

Personally, I actually kind of prefer the old Broly over Toriyama’s Broly, at least in terms of Movie 8 specifically. Super Broly sort of gives off AU fanfic vibes to me.

I thought the idea of him being the saiyan of legend made him so much scarier and cool. It felt like they were battling a mythological entity.

In regards to his character, I think the idea of him is pretty interesting(a deeply disturbed psychopathic monster) but I just wish he was in a better movie

[Mister_Popo]

We don't always know exactly how involved Toriyama still was with everything. He wasn't equally involved in everything. He did less for the manga and anime than for the films. But I believe his role and impact shouldn't be underestimated. He still wrote the scenarios and outlines for everything, designed most of the characters, and did a final "quality check" before publication. Although Toriyama did this in collaboration with others, it slowed down the creative process, but it also ensured a certain level of quality.

Dragon Ball Room may have come up with the ideas, but it was Toriyama who made them bulletproof for his world. What would a Broly reboot have been without the original story of the 3 Saiyans? That's what made the film authentic. Toriyama was often there to prove a point, that a certain idea could be made even better. Or that it could be completely different: Battle of Gods (and by extension the entire revival) likely succeeded because Toriyama completely rewrote and reworked the script to his liking. And it wasn't a secret that he was disappointed with Super, one of the reasons, in my opinion, that TOEI (alongside public criticism) had to pay more attention to the quality of the animation and execution.

That driving critical force is now gone. And others will take on that role. But will they do it in the same way a father raises his own child?

Now, Toriyama is no longer between those who want to maximize profits from the franchise and the audience. That's why I fear a complete exploitation of Dragon Ball in the near future, to a degree that wasn't the case before. It was fun to have a revival, but it doesn't need to last forever. For me, Ultra Instinct was a logical endpoint in Goku's journey as a martial artist. The story could have comfortably ended after the Tournament of Power.

Personally, I don't think giving the green light for an endless expansion of the main timeline is a good idea. It doesn't guarantee quality and opens the door to complete and further commercialization with 'proven formulas and tropes'. Without Toriyama's permission and without the unique sense he had for his world. Theoretically Shueisha can still say 'no' to bad ideas. On the other hand Akio Iyoku founded Capsule Corporation Tokyo for a reason: to produce more Dragon Ball content. More content, while there is already more than enough, isn't exactly synonymous to 'better'.

In this light, Daima becomes extra special, knowing that it was Toriyama's last project. I am apprehensive about the quality of anything that comes after. Additionally, it's essential for every story (especially a manga) to have an ending. I don't want the DB Universe to become a second Marvel or DC.

[tonysoprano300]

We don't always know exactly how involved Toriyama still was with everything. He wasn't equally involved in everything. He did less for the manga and anime than for the films. But I believe his role and impact shouldn't be underestimated. He still wrote the scenarios and outlines for everything, designed most of the characters, and did a final "quality check" before publication. Although Toriyama did this in collaboration with others, it slowed down the creative process, but it also ensured a certain level of quality.

Dragon Ball Room may have come up with the ideas, but it was Toriyama who made them bulletproof for his world. What would a Broly reboot have been without the original story of the 3 Saiyans? That's what made the film authentic. Toriyama was often there to prove a point, that a certain idea could be made even better. Or that it could be completely different: Battle of Gods (and by extension the entire revival) likely succeeded because Toriyama completely rewrote and reworked the script to his liking. And it wasn't a secret that he was disappointed with Super, one of the reasons, in my opinion, that TOEI (alongside public criticism) had to pay more attention to the quality of the animation and execution.

That driving critical force is now gone. And others will take on that role. But will they do it in the same way a father raises his own child?

Now, Toriyama is no longer between those who want to maximize profits from the franchise and the audience. That's why I fear a complete exploitation of Dragon Ball in the near future, to a degree that wasn't the case before. It was fun to have a revival, but it doesn't need to last forever. For me, Ultra Instinct was a logical endpoint in Goku's journey as a martial artist. The story could have comfortably ended after the Tournament of Power.

Personally, I don't think giving the green light for an endless expansion of the main timeline is a good idea. It doesn't guarantee quality and opens the door to complete and further commercialization with 'proven formulas and tropes'. Without Toriyama's permission and without the unique sense he had for his world. Theoretically Shueisha can still say 'no' to bad ideas. On the other hand Akio Iyoku founded Capsule Corporation Tokyo for a reason: to produce more Dragon Ball content. More content, while there is already more than enough, isn't exactly synonymous to 'better'.

In this light, Daima becomes extra special, knowing that it was Toriyama's last project. I am apprehensive about the quality of anything that comes after. Additionally, it's essential for every story (especially a manga) to have an ending. I don't want the DB Universe to become a second Marvel or DC.

On one hand I agree that we are probably in a time where they could definitively end DB and nobody would bat an eye but at the same time I never really felt DB needed to continue past Buu. BOG did change my mind on that somewhat but after that point it felt DB was stuck in territory that was continually familiar. Obviously I love Toriyama, he is the father of DB and unlike others I'm very much excited for Daima but I just don’t really know if DBs continuation was warranted even with him in the picture. And part of the reason Daima is even intriguing is because it actually seems like somewhat of a creative risk compared to what we usually get

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Do you think by any chance that Toriyama had any level of input or involvement in the final arc of the manga coming up before his passing? I believe Toyo said that the arc after Super Hero will tie into the end of Z didn’t he?

[kemuri07]

With Super...I don't really get the impression that Toriyama was on the front lines ensuring that Toei "respected" Dragon Ball. Like the exploitation of Dragon Ball was already happening from the get-go, and Toriyama was okaying a number of suspect shit anyways, in addition to the things he was personally adding to the "lore." I know some people here to take the side that Toriyama can do no wrong, but I've always believed that he absolutely can: Dragon Ball Minus is proof of this.

[AliTheZombie13]

I know some people here to take the side that Toriyama can do no wrong, but I've always believed that he absolutely can: Dragon Ball Minus is proof of this.

I for one thought Beerus, Whis, Jaco, and the entire multiverse concept were already pushing my suspension of disbelief while watching Super. Sure, Bulma already had an alien friend and a sister, she just acted shocked upon learning about aliens, and never felt like calling her sister when the Namek situation popped up because... reasons. And Beerus never helped during the Majin Boo massacre, despite his life depending on it, because... reasons. And all the "upper gods" really existed and everyone apparently knew of them already, they were just never mentioned when Piccolo realized about the existence of greater beings than the Kaios because... reasons.

It's so much easier to accept Super is an alternate timeline than it is to accept it is part of the original lore.

[tonysoprano300]

I will say that a lot of the most nonsensical beerus stuff came from Goku Black arc, I think the largest suspension of disbelief needed in BOG itself was the fact that nobody thought to wake Beerus up during the Buu arc given how fearsome Buu was and that he seemingly couldn’t recognize Buu at all.

Ill even go as far to say that introducing endless amounts of gods and dieties was also a thing in DB, ranging from Kami to Yemma to King Kai and all the way to the Supreme Kai. Toriyama was just adding god after god as the story went on.

But I agree, these things were happening under Toriyamas watch so it’s kind of whatever at this point. DBS never really even needed to happen to begin with imo, the ending That Toriyama constructed works just as well even if you skip Super entirely. Which in a serialized story like DB is unheard of but it just speaks to how little we’ve gotten in terms of actual progress of the story.

[SupremeKai25]

What is wrong with "suspension of disbelief"? It's a common device that is required to consume any story.

Do you not "suspend your disbelief" when you accept that there are magical flying lizards who can spit fire in Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones?

Are you not "suspending your disbelief" whenever you see some dude surviving a planet explosion (impossible)?

We see yet again a case of Super being held to impossibly-high standards. These are impossible standards to meet for any fictional story.

Actually, at least Super gave a reason for Beerus not doing anything in DBZ, as he was asleep and he is a cat (who sleep a lot). What reason did DBZ give for Supreme Kai Shin not one-tapping Frieza and ending his reign of misery and terror over the universe?

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball Z gave none, but Toriyama sort of did. Kaioshin's role is not to erradicate evil in the Universe. They are there to observe the cosmos, and as the Gods of Creation, they are there to create planets and lives. (More on Kaioshins' role here)

Freeza would wipe out lives, but you have to look at it from the Kaioshin's perspective, he is a substitute for Beerus. And since they can create more lives, it generates a balance there. As we know, Kaioshins are stronger than Freeza, so there was really no need to take any action against him. As Toriyama says, it's possible Kaioshins also had the view of "letting someone to act as an agent of destruction".

By the way, Majin Buu, who is not a cat, sleeps a lot at inconvenient times. So yeah, Dragon Ball Super did give a reason, but not one we should cling to it too much. Deep down you know that's just an (poorly thought-out) "excuse".