The Zero Mortal Plan is sort of dumb.

[GTx10]

So it's been a while since I've watched the Goku Black arc or read the Manga so maybe I am forgetting details but Zamasu's plan was doomed to fail. At some point the Grand Priest/Zeno would of noticed the sudden deaths of Supreme Kai's and God's and then wiped him out. The story makes sense (kind of) before the ToP arc but after that it falls apart. What do you guys and girls think?

I say Zamasu would of been caught at some point and wiped out.

[FoolsGil]

So it's been a while since I've watched the Goku Black arc or read the Manga so maybe I am forgetting details but Zamasu's plan was doomed to fail. At some point the Grand Priest/Zeno would of noticed the sudden deaths of Supreme Kai's and God's and then wiped him out. The story makes sense (kind of) before the ToP arc but after that it falls apart. What do you guys and girls think?

I say Zamasu would of been caught at some point and wiped out.

I agree. It's quite a large flaw in Super's writing, lack of tension because one way or another, the villain will be stopped. But that's probably why the gods and angels are so ridiculously flawed that as flimsy as it was, Zamasu still pulled it off - because screw oversights and check ins, or even alarms when suddenly a universe becomes devoid of life, or when a Kai is murdered.

[SupremeKai25]

The Grand Priest apparently no longer existed. Did you see him anywhere in the Future timeline? Why don't more people assume that deactivating all the 12 Angels (which Zamasu successfully did) automatically deactivates their father too? Either way, the Grand Priest was clearly no longer a threat to Zamasu.

Zamasu accounted for Zeno. Zeno is a naive kid who is pretty easy to deal with, so we know that Zamasu would have simply remained in hiding in any other planet if Zeno grew suspicious.

Like we know that the Project Zero Mortals plan had been going on for at least one year before Trunks travels to the past, and we know that Black had already destroyed many mortal civilizations before coming to Earth. Not once did Zeno ever notice him. The main issue wasn't Zeno, it was the guys from the past alerting Zeno of his presence. Having watched the U6 tournament, Zamasu knew that Goku and co. had met Zeno before, so he was afraid of the guys from the past warning Zeno. That was the problem.

If Trunks never went for the past, is there any reason to assume that Zeno would have miraculously noticed what was happening? After he didn't notice anything for over a year? Seems like wishful thinking to me.

In the end, Zamasu's plan succeeded and it took a literal Divine intervention to end him. He is by far the most successful villain in all of Dragon Ball.

[FoolsGil]

And while this isn't necessarily pointing out the flaws in the story, this is pointing out the flaws out of story, namely where the story is placed on the timeline - You do a story like this when it's literally the end of the series. Because as powerful as Zamasu and Goku Black was, not even one arc later there were mortals that could easily kill them, especially before Black discovered the Rose transformation. So how did Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo from U11 lose to these guys, Zamasu's immortality could only take him so far, Black didn't have a transformation, and they clearly didn't fuse. And that's just U11. There are still 4 other universes we know nothing about, with beings that have to be stronger than everything we've seen before it because that is just how shonen works - How did Zamasu and Black wipe out those universes too?

[Koitsukai]

Truth is the multiverse is ran by morons, you don't need much to create havoc. You could say every universe is ran like independent states, whatever happens is up to them to work out, the "federal" government won't intervene unless the president gets involved directly for some reason like summoning him with a button.

The plan is flawed, yes, and wouldn't work in a multiverse ran by competent deities, but it was good enough for these ones.
Black was lucky enough that Zeno ended up being a dumb child, as his low godly status prevented him from actually knowing anything about him. If Zeno ended up being an asshole like Zeus, oh boy, plan would've been over the day it started.
In fact, Zeno probably wasn't even against the emptying of the multiverse, as in the present he was so keen on wiping it all out, GoDs included, it just turned out that he was removed from his ivory tower and placed on the actual shithole.

So how did Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo from U11 lose to these guys, Zamasu's immortality could only take him so far, Black didn't have a transformation, and they clearly didn't fuse.

It's funny because they even gave Jiren a device that could trap that dude that was pressing on Toppo and Dyspo, lol. He could've used that against the much weaker Zamasu easily.

[SupremeKai25]

I feel like the fact that the story is set into an alternate timeline makes the "plot-holes" much more tolerable and very easy to hand-wave away with simple headcanon.

Where was Toppo? It's 20 or so years into the future, so he already became the new Destroyer and died with the Kai.

Where were Jiren and Dyspo? 20 years into the future, maybe they caught a heart virus and died.

Where was Broly? 20 years into the future, Broly is either an old man or straight-up dead. He was dying of starvation on Vampa before the Frieza Force guys showed up with food. Naturally an Old Man, Dehydrated/Hungry Broly is not going to pose any challenge to the Kai duo.

Moro? The Heeters? The Red Ribbon Androids? 20 years into the future, 20 years into the future, 20 years into the future. Anything could have happened to these people so that they could not threaten Zamasu's plan.

Also, maybe some of these people were never even born in the first place. Just as the Future Androids are much more evil than the Present Androids, maybe Jiren was never born in the Future timeline. Again, alternate timeline. Anything could have happened, the rules are easily bent.

Even though the writers did not plan ahead for how Zamasu would have confronted the ToP fighters, ultimately the fact that it's an alternate timeline means that there is no confirmed plot-hole. You do not know where Jiren is in the Future timeline.

The only thing we know for certain is that Black had already destroyed many mortal civilizations before coming to Earth and no one could stop him. And after attacking the Earth, he spent an entire year just tormenting the humans and fighting Trunks, and again no one else went to Earth to try and stop him. And also that Black scoured the entire time-space continuum and specifically chose that timeline because he saw that no one could stop him there after Beerus died. These are the facts we know.

So these "plot-holes" with Jiren, Broly, etc. are virtually non-existent as we don't actually know what the alternate Jiren and Broly were doing 20 years into the future. We can assume that they could have run into Zamasu but we cannot be certain of this.

[Koitsukai]

It is true that two decades passing by are great to explain why somebody isn't there to put up some resistance. 10M things could've happened, from a ToP with a different outcome to greatly improved Hakaishin Toppo hakaing Jiren for whatever reason.
Broly won't starve to death, as I read recently, saiyans do not suffer from that, but he has no way to leave the planet either. However, if you blow up Vampa...

Also, I'm not too sure the entire multiverse is empty, like there's literally nobody left alive on U4. That's an extremely exhausting and nigh impossible task for just two dudes to accomplish just with their fists. I guess they blew planets up?
I should re-read that arc, but IIRC they only killed the main deities and only on U7 they wiped out everybody because that's where they were setting up camp.

[GTx10]

Wait was it ever said (in the anime or manga) that killing the Kais not only kills the Destroyers but that also means all the Angels including the Grand Priest turns off? Sure the Angels deactivate but does that applie to the Grand Priest as well? Again he would of noticed his Destoryers dying before all of them fell. And let's say he didn't and then turned off (if Possible) then Zeno would of saw that or at the very least his attendees would have.

Zeno isn't that stupid. So Zamasu was going to fail at some point. He's dumb lol.

[Koitsukai]

Wait was it ever said (in the anime or manga) that killing the Kais not only kills the Destroyers but that also means all the Angels including the Grand Priest turns off? Sure the Angels deactivate but does that applie to the Grand Priest as well? Again he would of noticed his Destoryers dying before all of them fell. And let's say he didn't and then turned off (if Possible) then Zeno would of saw that or at the very least his attendees would have.

Zeno isn't that stupid. So Zamasu was going to fail at some point. He's dumb lol.

It was not. Like you said, in that case, and since the fall of the angels was gradual, not all of them at once, the GP would've noticed that (we know he monitors the angels, as shown with Merus) and done something to prevent his own demise. He's been shown to have some agency, and like you also said, Zeno would've noticed his main servant being gone.

Most likely, he told Zeno, who didn't care since in the present line he had no problems erasing everybody just for fun... until he was summoned and had to step in the mud. Politicians are fine with poverty until they see it first-hand.

[FoolsGil]

It is true that two decades passing by are great to explain why somebody isn't there to put up some resistance. 10M things could've happened, from a ToP with a different outcome to greatly improved Hakaishin Toppo hakaing Jiren for whatever reason.
Broly won't starve to death, as I read recently, saiyans do not suffer from that, but he has no way to leave the planet either. However, if you blow up Vampa...

Also, I'm not too sure the entire multiverse is empty, like there's literally nobody left alive on U4. That's an extremely exhausting and nigh impossible task for just two dudes to accomplish just with their fists. I guess they blew planets up?
I should re-read that arc, but IIRC they only killed the main deities and only on U7 they wiped out everybody because that's where they were setting up camp.

Are you telling me that when they would finally conquer Earth, they might still have 11 other universes' mortals to take care of?! Why are they taking so long; this is a series where Freeza in the first arc he was in, was the first established planet buster, and these guys are beyond that! Should be a cakewalk! Zero mortals plan my ass, At this point I don't know who's worst at their jobs, Zeno and GP or Zamasu and Black!

[SupremeKai25]

Zeno isn't that stupid. So Zamasu was going to fail at some point. He's dumb lol.

Yes he is. The guy is literally just a 6 years old who wants a friend to play with.

But since this is Dragon Ball, a series that doesn't take itself too seriously and does a lot of trolling, this 6 years old who just wants a friend is also capable of erasing all of reality.

But he's still a 6 years old. A literal child. He's powerful, but he's not smarter than Zamasu. Again, Zamasu was doing his stuff for over 1 year and Zeno never even got a clue. He got involved only because Past Goku summoned him, which Zamasu couldn't possibly have predicted.

Anyway, can you explain how Zamasu was "dumb"? I mean, he destroyed pretty much everything. He's far more successful than the old DBZ villains, most of who could never even take over the Earth.

[GTx10]

Zeno isn't that stupid. So Zamasu was going to fail at some point. He's dumb lol.

Yes he is. The guy is literally just a 6 years old who wants a friend to play with.

But since this is Dragon Ball, a series that doesn't take itself too seriously and does a lot of trolling, this 6 years old who just wants a friend is also capable of erasing all of reality.

But he's still a 6 years old. A literal child. He's powerful, but he's not smarter than Zamasu. Again, Zamasu was doing his stuff for over 1 year and Zeno never even got a clue. He got involved only because Past Goku summoned him, which Zamasu couldn't possibly have predicted.

Anyway, can you explain how Zamasu was "dumb"? I mean, he destroyed pretty much everything. He's far more successful than the old DBZ villains, most of who could never even take over the Earth.

Zamasu is dumb because his plan very likely would of failed. Removing the Z-Fighters from the picture would result in the Grand Priest jumping in to stop Zamasu. (In my opinion) The Grand Priest would of stopped The rogue Kai simply because his Angels are being deactivated and thus not doing their job. I'm sure the massive deaths of multiple Kais and God's would of alerted the top brass.

And let's says the Grand Priest did nothing okay, at some point Zeno would of noticed it himself. He can erase Zamasu just for the "lolz" or because he actually wants to. (Which is what he ended up doing anyway despite being called by Goku. Plus Zamasu had no means to combat Zeno's powers) Also Zamasu would of met up with Top or Jiran at some point. I feel God Top and Jiren could had/have defeated Fused Zamasu/Zamasu/Goku Black.

So no matter how you slice the evil Kai's plan would of failed. Let's not forget that Super Era Broly was out there too. Zamasu's defeat is not a matter of if but rather when. As far as I see it.

[SupremeKai25]

Zeno isn't that stupid. So Zamasu was going to fail at some point. He's dumb lol.

Yes he is. The guy is literally just a 6 years old who wants a friend to play with.

But since this is Dragon Ball, a series that doesn't take itself too seriously and does a lot of trolling, this 6 years old who just wants a friend is also capable of erasing all of reality.

But he's still a 6 years old. A literal child. He's powerful, but he's not smarter than Zamasu. Again, Zamasu was doing his stuff for over 1 year and Zeno never even got a clue. He got involved only because Past Goku summoned him, which Zamasu couldn't possibly have predicted.

Anyway, can you explain how Zamasu was "dumb"? I mean, he destroyed pretty much everything. He's far more successful than the old DBZ villains, most of who could never even take over the Earth.

Zamasu is dumb because his plan very likely would of failed. Removing the Z-Fighters from the picture would result in the Grand Priest jumping in to stop Zamasu. (In my opinion) The Grand Priest would of stopped The rogue Kai simply because his Angels are being deactivated and thus not doing their job. I'm sure the massive deaths of multiple Kais and God's would of alerted the top brass.

And let's says the Grand Priest did nothing okay, at some point Zeno would of noticed it himself. He can erase Zamasu just for the "lolz" or because he actually wants to. (Which is what he ended up doing anyway despite being called by Goku. Plus Zamasu had no means to combat Zeno's powers) Also Zamasu would of met up with Top or Jiran at some point. I feel God Top and Jiren could had/have defeated Fused Zamasu/Zamasu/Goku Black.

So no matter how you slice the evil Kai's plan would of failed. Let's not forget that Super Era Broly was out there too. Zamasu's defeat is not a matter of if but rather when. As far as I see it.

In general, I think that Zeno's "care" for the mortals is vastly overblown by the community. This is the same guy who wanted to erase every single Universe in literally the next arc - and No, the tournament was not planned, it was Goku's idea. He gave the universes a chance to earn their salvation. Zeno was just going to erase them.

Ultimately, the reason why Zeno erased the Future timeline is because he found that world very ugly. His own words. But we know that Zamasu's ultimate goal was to recreate everything as a "golden utopia". So, if Zamasu had his way, the ugly world would turn into whatever Zamasu thinks is a "utopia" and Zeno wouldn't feel the urge to destroy everything.

I think people should keep in mind that Zamasu was a Supreme Kai. Creating worlds is his whole shtick. The Hakaishin destroy, the Kaioshin create.

Taking all things into consideration, I actually find it way more likely that Zamasu would hide the carnage from Zeno and then Zeno would just thank him for doing his dirty work for him.

Like the ToP arc literally opens up with Zeno and Zeno2 casually destroying planets during a board game. I don't really think he would have cared about Zamasu killing the mortals, considering how he was planning to do it himself anyway.

[GTx10]

Well I'm not saying the High Priest and Zeno would stop Zamasu out of justice or because he is misbehaving. But rather because he is killing other Kais and gods. It's not his call to remove gods, that is Zeno's/High Priest's job to remove them, even if it is a pity reason. That doesn't negative Jiren's ability to rock the evil Kai's plans.

Plus if you factor in the Manga then you have Merus (the training Angel) who would risk his life to kill Zamasu. Hit would of gave the two Kais a great fight too. Zamasu's downfall was really a matter of time.

[SupremeKai25]

Well I'm not saying the High Priest and Zeno would stop Zamasu out of justice or because he is misbehaving. But rather because he is killing other Kais and gods. It's not his call to remove gods, that is Zeno's/High Priest's job to remove them, even if it is a pity reason. That doesn't negative Jiren's ability to rock the evil Kai's plans.

Plus if you factor in the Manga then you have Merus (the training Angel) who would risk his life to kill Zamasu. Hit would of gave the two Kais a great fight too. Zamasu's downfall was really a matter of time.

Merus cannot defend mortals or he gets erased. Hit is weaker than Black by virtue of the Dragon Ball custom/tradition that the New main antagonist is superior to the Previous arc's main antagonist. Hit might give Black some challenge but he would ultimately fail.

Either way, I don't see what your point is. If you think Zamasu's plan is "dumb", well, it's still better than the "plans" of all the DBZ villains. If Cell and Buu can even be said to have a plan, they were just mindless brutes. So, in the context of Dragon Ball, Zamasu's plan is still better-crafted than other villains and their "plans".



I mean, I don't know how people can look at the FT arc and conclude that Zamasu was stupid. He was terrorizing the Earth for over one year, no one could square up to him, and he lost only because he couldn't foresee Future Bulma asspulling a whole fuel tank for a new trip to the past, and Present Bulma asspulling Cell's old time machine. To me, Zamasu is clearly written as a cunning planner, who did his homework.

[super michael]

Master Roshi was still alive, I don't know why he didn't teach Future Trunks the Mafuba or anything at all.
There was the ROSAT, which we know exist in Future Trunks time line so no one can detect them training.


Zamasu would have been no problem, if Goku didn't forget the talisman and urn. If they knew Master Roshi was alive, why didn't Goku use IT to Master Roshi location and get the talisman. We know Goku can teleport to Master Roshi location with no problem at all.

[SupremeKai25]

Master Roshi was still alive, I don't know why he didn't teach Future Trunks the Mafuba or anything at all.
There was the ROSAT, which we know exist in Future Trunks time line so no one can detect them training.


Zamasu would have been no problem, if Goku didn't forget the talisman and urn. If they knew Master Roshi was alive, why didn't Goku use IT to Master Roshi location and get the talisman. We know Goku can teleport to Master Roshi location with no problem at all.

This is an irrelevant thing to bring up.

EVERY villain could have been dealt with through the Mafuba. Furthermore, Zamasu was not aware of the existence of the Mafuba, since it's a secret technique known only to the Earthlings.

[super michael]

Master Roshi was still alive, I don't know why he didn't teach Future Trunks the Mafuba or anything at all.
There was the ROSAT, which we know exist in Future Trunks time line so no one can detect them training.


Zamasu would have been no problem, if Goku didn't forget the talisman and urn. If they knew Master Roshi was alive, why didn't Goku use IT to Master Roshi location and get the talisman. We know Goku can teleport to Master Roshi location with no problem at all.

This is an irrelevant thing to bring up.

EVERY villain could have been dealt with through the Mafuba. Furthermore, Zamasu was not aware of the existence of the Mafuba, since it's a secret technique known only to the Earthlings.

I guess teaching and training Future Trunks to learn the Mafuba is irrelevant, although he did learn it from watching Piccolo video.

The 2nd part isn't irrelevant, since we know Goku has no problem detecting Master Roshi ki. Goku teleports to Master Roshi place, gets the urn and talisman and then seals Zamasu or Merged Zamasu. There problem solved.
However Goku didn't think to correct his mistake at all.

[SupremeKai25]

Master Roshi was still alive, I don't know why he didn't teach Future Trunks the Mafuba or anything at all.
There was the ROSAT, which we know exist in Future Trunks time line so no one can detect them training.


Zamasu would have been no problem, if Goku didn't forget the talisman and urn. If they knew Master Roshi was alive, why didn't Goku use IT to Master Roshi location and get the talisman. We know Goku can teleport to Master Roshi location with no problem at all.

This is an irrelevant thing to bring up.

EVERY villain could have been dealt with through the Mafuba. Furthermore, Zamasu was not aware of the existence of the Mafuba, since it's a secret technique known only to the Earthlings.

I guess teaching and training Future Trunks to learn the Mafuba is irrelevant, although he did learn it from watching Piccolo video.

The 2nd part isn't irrelevant, since we know Goku has no problem detecting Master Roshi ki. Goku teleports to Master Roshi place, gets the urn and talisman and then seals Zamasu or Merged Zamasu. There problem solved.
However Goku didn't think to correct his mistake at all.

Cool, except this thread is not about Goku, Trunks, or Roshi, it's about Zamasu.

So, what is your point? That Zamasu was dumb because he didn't predict that the Earthlings have a niche sealing technique that only a select few people know about?

Because in that case every single Dragon Ball villain is dumb.

[super michael]

This is an irrelevant thing to bring up.

EVERY villain could have been dealt with through the Mafuba. Furthermore, Zamasu was not aware of the existence of the Mafuba, since it's a secret technique known only to the Earthlings.

I guess teaching and training Future Trunks to learn the Mafuba is irrelevant, although he did learn it from watching Piccolo video.

The 2nd part isn't irrelevant, since we know Goku has no problem detecting Master Roshi ki. Goku teleports to Master Roshi place, gets the urn and talisman and then seals Zamasu or Merged Zamasu. There problem solved.
However Goku didn't think to correct his mistake at all.

Cool, except this thread is not about Goku, Trunks, or Roshi, it's about Zamasu.

So, what is your point? That Zamasu was dumb because he didn't predict that the Earthlings have a niche sealing technique that only a select few people know about?

Because in that case every single Dragon Ball villain is dumb.

Zamasu not knowing about the Mafuba doesn't make him dumb, he is not the dumb one here. I am pointing my finger at Goku being dumb.
My point is Goku wouldn't need to call Zeno, if he used his tiny little brain.