Do you consider Goku a Hero?

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

This was brought up in Non-thread-worthy discussions but I think it's a big enough topic to warrant its own.

We've all heard it before Funimation made the naive, battle obsessed manchild who grew up in the sticks a generic Superman clone, TOEI Goku from the old movies is Funimation-lite, but in spite of all that can Goku be considered a "Hero"?

The Cambridge Dictionary defines a hero as such:

a person who is admired for having done something very brave or having achieved something great:

I've made the case that while I don't agree Goku's main motivation for fighting is to protect his loved ones from harm he has done acts that could be considered heroic however unintentionally. Case in point Goku allowing Piccolo's Makankōsappō to pierce through himself and Raditz, which allowed Gohan to live at the cost of his own. At the Cell Games of course Goku risked his own life again when the entire Earth could have been destroyed along with all its inhabitants. Of course you can say the latter was not heroic for the sake of it or well thought out because King Kai, Bubbles and Gregory were also killed in the process.

Masako Nozawa has shed light on her interpretation of Goku in the last few years, which perhaps gives him a bit too much credit although maybe it was just because she wants people to carry on liking Goku, which I think we can all do despite his flaws, because after all flaws are what makes characters interesting.

[AliTheZombie13]

In the original manga, pre-Cell, he was clearly supposed to be one, every single line and action of his demonstrated that.

Bulma: "Hey Son-Kun, these guys are bad guys, beat them up for us!"
Goku: "Okay."

Goku: "Take over the world? No! I want to bring back Upa's dad, who was killed by one of your men!"
Black: "OK, then how about this? After we gather the Dragon Balls and bring that Upa guy's dad back to life, we can just work together and conquer the world!"
Goku: "I said no! I don't want to work with bad guys! Just give up already and turn yourself in to those police guys!"

Goku: "This Genki-Dama was the last thing I wanted to use... It might be too powerful... And there's no guarantee it won't crush the planet itself... But I have to defeat Freeza now, while I still can... or the entire universe will be in danger!"

And my personal favorite:


However, as the story progressed, I feel like Toriyama started making Goku much more apathetic to the fate of the world/universe and much more fight-hungry as a personal "FUCK YOU" to Toei's depiction of him in the Z movies.

That isn't to say he didn't still have a semblance of heroism. Once in a while, he did display that, for all of his faults, he still cared about people other than himself and his loved ones. Deciding to sacrifice himself so Cell wouldn't destroy the Earth, deciding to stay dead so the Earth would be safer without him, planting the seeds for the new generation to take care of new threats, etc.

By the time of Super, however, I feel like Toriyama was dead set on this idea that "Goku is a selfish asshole and nothing else, PERIOD!" And... okay, it's his story, he's free to write it however he wants. Though, Goku post-Namek feels like an extreme overreaction and over-correction on Toriyama's part than natural character growth.

I do get the intention that Toriyama wanted to give Goku some kind of "poison", but I feel the execution was terrible and at many times made me lose sympathy for his character. IMO, he striked the perfect balance for Goku's "poison" during the Saiyan saga, when Goku freely admitted that while he wanted to save the world, he also wanted to fight Vegeta again, and so spared him.

These days, however, it feels like Goku's "poison" is the only genuine character trait he has, making him come off as one-note, annoying and worse than useless, given how often he's the catalyst for the villains' actions.

I'm not opposed to having the new writers make Goku more selfish, though, they have to write him better than he's been written so far.

[GokuHater]

Yup. I don't really care about this nowaday bs that Goku is not a hero. That he only fights because he loves, that he is only interested 100% on it etc.

Sure, Goku loves fighting and it's a big part of his character but the way he was portrayed in the original anime and even the manga does not contradict him being a hero. He may be selfish but he does good and even selfless things. He is heroic. And while it's true manga does not show this absolutely self righteous super man, he still is different than Super tries to portray him.

Goku was always a hero, heck, one of his earliest acts of kindness was bringing back Bora, from which he didn't benefit in any way and didn't have any fight out from it.
I feel for me and many others Goku was sort of a motivator/fictional character to look up to while growing up.

Nowadays I am not sure I would even LIKE him but still manga and movie portrayal is better for me, than the anime :p

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Great answers thus far. I guess you could say that heroism is in the eyes of the beholder. As I said Goku never sets out to be the saviour of all and proclaim himself to be the hope of the universe, as he does in the Z dub, but at the same time he's not an asshole and does mean well even when he's not thinking about his friends and family or their concern for him when he asked to remain on Namek fighting Freeza.

I can understand people's points about the manga since Cell being an overcompensation for TOEI's attempts to arguably make Goku more likeable as a typical righteous hero. The Bora incident was a great example too, and something I can't imagine any other motivation for other than Goku making his new friend Oopa happy, as he knew what it was like to lose his own father figure Gohan, which obviously requires some level of empathy.

[MasenkoHA]

I will say at the end of the day the only real difference between Funimation Goku and Toei Goku is Funimation Goku has corny cheeseball dialog about truth and justice shoved down his throat. Funimation has a tendency to take something Toei did and crank it up by 11.

Anyways hero is a very broad term. Goku can be regarded as a hero just for being inspirational from starting off as a write off in his home planet to being one of the strongest men in the universe. But in the traditional sense, yes, Goku is. I do agree with AliTheZombie that as the story progressed his heroics became more incidental. Compare his fighting Piccolo Daimao to save the world and avenge his fallen friend and mentor to fighting Cell just to size him up and decide to thrown his preteen into the ring to show off his power.

[goku the krump dancer]

In the general sense yes, he’s a super hero, he wears funny clothes, has special abilities that he uses primarily for good against people with similar abilities who use them with evil intentions and he has a hot line ( ki sensing) that goes off to let him know when someone is being hurt or evil is a foot.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

In the general sense yes, he’s a super hero, he wears funny clothes, has special abilities that he uses primarily for good against people with similar abilities who use them with evil intentions and he has a hot line ( ki sensing) that goes off to let him know when someone is being hurt or evil is a foot.

Maybe a little ironic because Toriyama was a gag manga artist but one thing that drew me to Dragon Ball's art style more than western comics was that it felt less goofy and more grounded, no underwear worn on the outside or capes, it was just all for the love of martial arts. I can't remember what Simmons' line was, although it was probably different, but Kaio-Sama/King Kai's line in the Super dub describing Goku wearing his "butt kicking clothes" is exactly what they felt like to me as a kid.

[TheGreatness25]

Of course he's a hero. Each time he fought someone that he didn't want to fight, he was being a hero. Just because he enjoyed it doesn't make him less of one.

[Majin Buu]

Toriyama Goku is a hero, just not a superhero.

For me, Toriyama Goku doesn't fit the mold of a superhero because that would imply that he's motivated by and prioritizes doing good and saving people- which is not stuff Toriyama Goku is motivated by or prioritizes.

He is a hero in the literal sense as he has stopped bad guys who do bad things, but only in that sense.

Toei Goku has the same acts of heroism under his belt, but he's more in-line with a superhero as he more actively prioritizes saving people and doing good.

[SupremeKai25]

He's an "accidental Hero". He doesn't wake up with the intent to save the world, he wakes up with the intent to fight strong guys. That he also saves the world by defeating the strong guy is a nice side benefit, but not the main goal.

Cell saga Goku is an outlier and nothing more. The real Goku would never stay dead because "tHe EaRtH iS iN DaNgEr", how ridiculous.

Ultimately, the version of Goku we see in Super is the version Toriyama always wanted to tell without any meddling from third parties.

Super Goku is the definition of the "accidental hero". His main goal is fighting strong guys like Hit/Zamasu/Jiren/Broly. He also saves the world by doing so, making him a hero, but that's not his primary goal.

And that is precisely what Toriyama always intended for Goku.

[FoolsGil]

Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe its because Tokusentai / Power Rangers, but nothing is more annoying than 'not a hero' conversation. Because end of day no matter how the protagonist see themselves, if injustice is happening, and they see it, they will stop it, "This guy just pissed me off" "You're annoying XYZ, can't have that" "I felt like it" There is just a level of insecurity there in my opinion.

To answer the topic discussion: Yeah. I think he's a hero. he could say otherwise, I don't care. If he was truly neutral, the series would have went in a far different direction a long time ago.

[JulieYBM]

Hero is a label that we apply after the fact. We might call Gokuu a 'hero' for being the protagonist of the story, but I don't really know if it matters one way other. Gokuu's characterization is inconsistent enough that I'm not sure I would say that Gokuu acts to do things heroically because that is something he actually believes in or not.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I like the "Hero, but not a Superhero" distinction, because, yes the former is applied retroactively, the latter, in my experience is more of a formal identification and means of defining a character we are being introduced to.

What makes superheroes "Super"? It's the fact they stand for what's right and wrong, the "hero" label they will be awarded is something to take pride in because that's their goal. Superman is "Super" because ordinary men don't set out to save the world. We also have to keep in mind he predates any shounen heroes so being super strong was more of a novelty.

Goku obviously doesn't attain the status of "Super Saiyan" until the fight with Freeza but for characters like himself and Vegeta it's more appropriate than any variation of the "Superhero" concept because saiyans are a warrior race and reaching higher levels of strength for their dedication to battle is a greater honour worthy of the "Super" label.

That of course doesn't invalidate other people like Gohan, Bulma, Krillin/Kuririn, etc seeing Goku as a "Hero", because, as stated their reasons are valid even if it's not Goku's badge of honour.

[LoganForkHands73]

One admirable aspect of Goku that is still maintained even in his modern characterisation is his willingness to see potential in others, no matter their alignment. He barely hides his respect and admiration for Freeza's rapid growth, even if he resents Freeza's obvious personality defects on some level. This in turn leads to Toriyama's Goku being much more merciful than other action genre protagonists. Whether it's portrayed positively or not, I think there's always something to be said for a protagonist who doesn't kill lightly. Some of my favourite modern Goku characterisation was in the Broly movie. When he talks a rampaging Broly down, he shows wisdom, restraint, compassion... traits we rarely see these days.

What's interesting is that Toei Animation, known for generally portraying Goku in a more conventionally heroic or borderline messianic light, gave Goku a massively increased body count of slain enemies in the movies. You can expect Goku to finish them in some fairly brutal fashions, too. But perhaps the only reason Toei portrayed him that way is because Toriyama did the same, especially when Goku was a child. I agree with Ali's assessment that there's a strong impression of overcorrection on Toriyama's part, as he didn't seem to have an issue with Goku being a righteous slayer of evil until he realised that Goku was being taken as a role model.

When you think about it, it's unusual that there's a correlation between Goku's heroism and his willingness to kill. The dichotomy is directly addressed in two Super manga chapters, "Son Goku, Galactic Patrol Agent" and "Son Goku, Earthling". In the former, Goku spends the whole issue styling on Moro and seems intent on killing him - essentially, he's acting like "Toei Goku".



However, the chapter ends with Moro begging for mercy under a pile of rubble, while Goku rips off his Galactic Patrol gi and insists on fighting "as an Earthling". The following chapter is basically a sequentially inked nightmare for anyone who hates "modern Toriyama Goku".



To cut a long story short, Goku gives Moro a senzu, Moro naturally abuses the merciful gesture and mounts a counterattack after absorbing Merus's power. Everything works out in the end, of course, but Goku's mercy is unquestionably portrayed as an arrogant, selfish, overall terrible move, one that the other characters call him out on. Goku has messed up by being too lenient before, but in this arc, he comes appalling close to failing outright and there really isn't anyone else to blame (except Moro). Beerus complains that "Goku screwed up again". Without a clutch power transfer from Uub and Grand Kaioshin, both Earth and the entire galaxy would've been destroyed, with presumably no divine intervention from Whis or Zeno this time.

When you look back on past instances of Goku showing mercy to unrepentant bad guys, there were usually some small silver linings, some pathos, some eventual vindication. Now, it seems that Toriyama and other writers want to hammer the point home that Goku is basically the most unreliable bastard ever, incapable of resolving a situation by himself. If Goku was occasionally allowed to be proven right to show mercy, like he was for Piccolo and Vegeta, it would be easier to still call him a hero.

[super michael]

Here are the things Goku does:

- If someone asks for his help, helps them even if they are animals. An example the Turtle asking Goku to take him to the ocean.
- If Goku see a innocent person or animal being attacked, he helps them out.
- Goku has sacrificed his life, to save the earth. He did it against Raditz and Cell.
- Goku went out of his way to get the Dragon Balls, to revive those that died against villains. Don't see many hero that tries to revive others.
- Goku went out of his way to reactivate the Dragon Balls, if the worst happens and people dies.


In the Boo Saga Goku was willing to avoid fighting Boo, so he can train the next generation. Goku was thinking he isn't always going to be there, especially since he was dead. He was thinking just because he somehow managed to kill Boo, it doesn't mean there won't be other new villains.
We see there were new villains, so Goku was right. He didn't know himself, Vegeta and Gohan would be alive.


All those are from Toriyama manga. It isn't the anime.

[Koitsukai]

However, as the story progressed, I feel like Toriyama started making Goku much more apathetic to the fate of the world/universe and much more fight-hungry as a personal "FUCK YOU" to Toei's depiction of him in the Z movies.

That isn't to say he didn't still have a semblance of heroism. Once in a while, he did display that, for all of his faults, he still cared about people other than himself and his loved ones. Deciding to sacrifice himself so Cell wouldn't destroy the Earth, deciding to stay dead so the Earth would be safer without him, planting the seeds for the new generation to take care of new threats, etc.

By the time of Super, however, I feel like Toriyama was dead set on this idea that "Goku is a selfish asshole and nothing else, PERIOD!" And... okay, it's his story, he's free to write it however he wants. Though, Goku post-Namek feels like an extreme overreaction and over-correction on Toriyama's part than natural character growth.

Co-signed.
I don't know if the line is drawn at the Cell arc for me, maybe the Buu arc, definitely Super. But yeah, it seems to be an overreaction on his part, "oh you think my gag character is nice and heroic... you are basically saying I wrote him wrong, so here you go: he's now a functioning psychopath"
"oh you think he is the asian Superman? ok, check this out, now his father is a monkey version of Kal-El, how do you like them kryptonians?"

a person who is admired for having done something very brave or having achieved something great:

According to the Cambridge definition, there's not enough overcorrection in the world to make him not a hero. He fits the bill from Pilaf to the Granola arc.
Admired? check
Done something very brave? check
Great achievements? super saiyan check.

I guess the question is can you be considered a hero even if you are not trying to be one? Goku doesn't try to, but ends up being one anyway.

[Majin Buu]

According to the Cambridge definition, there's not enough overcorrection in the world to make him not a hero. He fits the bill from Pilaf to the Granola arc.
Admired? check
Done something very brave? check
Great achievements? super saiyan check.

I guess the question is can you be considered a hero even if you are not trying to be one? Goku doesn't try to, but ends up being one anyway.

The more I read through this topic and think about this question in general, I don't think the question we should be asking is "Is Goku a hero?" Because like you said, it's kinda hard to argue that he straight up isn't a hero based on his track record.

I think the question that more gets to the heart of the matter is whether he should he be characterized like a more conventional hero who prioritizes saving people and doing good or like a martial artist who has some kind of moral code but whose desire to fight isn't necessarily motivated by doing good.

For me I prefer the latter. I've said before that I find Goku more interesting as a flawed character that's allowed to not be perfect and make mistakes based on his established personality traits. In part because I find flawed characters more interesting and relatable than virtuous paragons and in part because I think the conventional hero portrayal runs the risk of Goku becoming a Mickey Mouse like figure that's so iconic that he's not allowed to be flawed in anyway, and that would make Goku actively boring for me.

And to put it out there, being flawed and not acting liking like a conventional hero doesn't mean there's nothing to like and admire about the guy. Going outside the series, so many fans cite his constant drive for self-improvement as an inspiration, and I think that's something that stands regardless of the question of his hero status.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think the question that more gets to the heart of the matter is whether he should he be characterized like a more conventional hero who prioritizes saving people and doing good or like a martial artist who has some kind of moral code but whose desire to fight isn't necessarily motivated by doing good.

For me I prefer the latter. I've said before that I find Goku more interesting as a flawed character that's allowed to not be perfect and make mistakes based on his established personality traits. In part because I find flawed characters more interesting and relatable than virtuous paragons and in part because I think the conventional hero portrayal runs the risk of Goku becoming a Mickey Mouse like figure that's so iconic that he's not allowed to be flawed in anyway, and that would make Goku actively boring for me.

And to put it out there, being flawed and not acting liking like a conventional hero doesn't mean there's nothing to like and admire about the guy. Going outside the series, so many fans cite his constant drive for self-improvement as an inspiration, and I think that's something that stands regardless of the question of his hero status.

For me, Goku would be more interesting as a flawed character, but ultimately a hero because he's stopping threats that are endangering himself, his loved ones and his planet. And I feel that was Toriyama's intention. He doesn't need to ally himself with King Furry, set up a skywatch and act like the leader of the Justice League, actively looking out for troublemakers.

My point of contention begins when Goku's desire for self-improvement starts to actively endanger people, something Roshi tried to teach him not to do in the original, and he suffers next to no consequences for his actions or even thinks about the damage he's either directly or indirectly caused. He's shouldn't be characterized like Superman, but he shouldn't be characterized like Homer Simpson either.

The actual problem here is that the writers, and that includes Toriyama himself, don't really know how to strike a balance between two extremes. It feels like it's always either Superman Goku, or Homer Simpson Goku, never an in-between.

[Majin Buu]

My point of contention begins when Goku's desire for self-improvement starts to actively endanger people, something Roshi tried to teach him not to do in the original, and he suffers next to no consequences for his actions or even thinks about the damage he's either directly or indirectly caused.

See, I find Goku being a guy that unintentionally causes trouble for others an interesting character dynamic. It was just more balanced in the original series.

Like in the Cell arc, he brought Gohan out as the trump card against Cell without considering that Gohan might not want to fight Cell for fun, leading to Gohan being physically and emotionally tortured by Cell; Goku makes up for that when he has to give his life to stop Cell from blowing up Earth when Gohan screws up by not killing Cell.

In the Buu arc, he doesn't whip out Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta and doesn't kill Fat Buu with it when he has the chance despite admitting later that he could have (wanting to, again, leave that to the next generation- which didn't work out that time) but makes up for that by being one of the central characters that helps defeat Buu in the end. And right before that final battle, he refuses the Potara fusion to fight Buu one-on-one knowing full well what the stakes are but then immediately regrets doing that once Super Saiyan 3 conks out on him, leading to the finale we got.

It was more balanced in the original series because there was usually some self-awareness on Goku's part about his behavior and the story would usually inconvenience him in some way when it didn't work out.

He's shouldn't be characterized like Superman, but he shouldn't be characterized like Homer Simpson either.

The actual problem here is that the writers, and that includes Toriyama himself, don't really know how to strike a balance between two extremes. It feels like it's always either Superman Goku, or Homer Simpson Goku, never an in-between.

Dragon Ball Super era Goku does feel like an overcorrection that goes into self-parody, with his inability to take anything seriously (for the most part) and displaying far less self-awareness. I don't disagree that DBS Goku has characterization problems.

That being said, I don't get the sense that they don't know how to write Goku in a better way so much as they've taken what Toriyama said about what Goku is supposed to be like to heart and are afraid to deviate from that.

[AliTheZombie13]

Like in the Cell arc, he brought Gohan out as the trump card against Cell without considering that Gohan might not want to fight Cell for fun, leading to Gohan being physically and emotionally tortured by Cell; Goku makes up for that when he has to give his life to stop Cell from blowing up Earth when Gohan screws up by not killing Cell.

...

Dragon Ball Super era Goku does feel like an overcorrection that goes into self-parody, with his inability to take anything seriously (for the most part) and displaying far less self-awareness. I don't disagree that DBS Goku has characterization problems.

That was an honest mistake, and like you said, he made up for it. I can forgive that.
And yes, I was mostly talking about Super!Goku. He both directly and indirectly caused an entire timeline to be wiped out.

Directly because his thirst for battle and insistence on annoying Zamasu to challenge him against his wishes made Zamasu snap, indirectly because Goku kept making mind-numbingly stupid mistakes like forgetting Senzu beans and the Mafuba seal, forcing Zeno to intervene. In this, it's especially egregious, because not only did everyone die, their souls got erased from existence. And what is Goku's reaction to all of this? ... "Now Zen-chan has another friend to play with, yay! "

At least with Z, Goku was smart enough to recognize his mistake and try to fix it.
No such thing happens here. He messes up, causes unfathomable suffering, and behaves like a child about it.