The Android Saga's Infamous "Lets do nothing to stop the upcoming threat" scene

[Cure Dragon 255]

Let's face it, Toriyama's talented and its a testament to how liked the characters and story were to survive the "Lets put the world in peril pointlessly" thing and people still liked and engaged with it. I think this is one where there is no real right side, but there is one constant that is true: The Dragon Team looks HIDEOUSLY irresponsible and hideously unlikeable. What is up to discussion is how likeable they were supposed to be and if that makes or breaks the show.

[SupremeKai25]

The Android saga as a whole was very poorly-planned and weird, almost like Toriyama just wanted to milk the franchise some more. Are we not going to talk about how the main villains changed thrice? That's unheard of, that's insane, very poor planning!

For all the unfair criticism Super gets, at least it never has such glaring plot holes.

I really do think that the Android saga gets carried by the 1990s Childhood Nostalgia. Can you imagine if any Super arc tried to present Goku and Vegeta as irresponsible fools who don't care about preparing for a future threat? We'd never hear the end of it from the fandom.

Also, considering how the following arc shows the Dragon Team planning like crazy to fight Majin Buu (think of Goten and Trunks learning fusion with Goku and Piccolo as their mentors; Think of Gohan learning how to unleash his potential with Old Supreme Kai as his mentor) and not taking any chances, It's clear that Toriyama didn't want to present the team as unlikeable and irresponsible, except for maybe Majin Vegeta and Goku at the end.

It's just that the Android saga genuinely has trash writing.

[ABED]

An aspect of this that I just thought about is I don't find the characters putting the world in danger unlikable because the story isn't ever going to make good on that. There's little likelihood that the world will actually end, certainly not permanently.

[Cure Dragon 255]

An aspect of this that I just thought about is I don't find the characters putting the world in danger unlikable is because I don't think the story is ever going to make good on that. There's little likelihood that the world will actually end, certainly not permanently.

How about the hundreds or thousands that die and how it all could have been averted in a fingersnap?

[ABED]

An aspect of this that I just thought about is I don't find the characters putting the world in danger unlikable is because I don't think the story is ever going to make good on that. There's little likelihood that the world will actually end, certainly not permanently.

How about the hundreds or thousands that die and how it all could have been averted in a fingersnap?

The Dragon Balls exist and undoes the damage.

[JulieYBM]

I think it's bad writing in that little is ever done to consistently use it as an entertaining element that leads to our characters constantly having it come back to bite them in the ass. It happens once at the end of the Cell arc, and still really something that acts as a permanent change in the status quo. Toriyama needed and editor to push him to consider the consequences more.

This is something that effects Dragon Ball in general, especially post-Raditz. Toriyama is so deadset on trying to make his characters flawed that he does so not in any way that is relatable and serves creating new drama as a result, but purely to justify a story arcs existence. Ali has spoken about this a lot lately, and I definitely have to agree with them.

The relative lack of trying to stop Dr. Gero before he creates the artificial humans does not make Gokuu and friends more interesting, in large part because Toriyama specifically goes out of his way to avoid writing to make his stories and characters overtly meaningful. Toriyama isn't really doing much with his writing decisions, outside of using them to justify an ending with an otherwise neat bow.

Toriyama should have been asking a lot more questions and trying to answer them, and unfortunately he doesn't really do that nearly as much as he could consistently be doing. I think that sucks, because Toriyama could also just as easily written Gokuu and friends with the opposite ideology and then mined that for character stuff, too.

Personally, now that I'm older and have more life experience beyond just being a fangirl, I think that Gokuu's bullshit from the latter half of the Saiyan arc onward is just boring. Gokuu was at his best when he had more realistic and humanistic touches, like caring about Gohan, and seeing himself in the light of "I'm a parent now, and that means something." That’s real and understandable. "I'll let the genocidal manic go so I can do a martial arts against him later" is not[/] real or understandable. Showing Gokuu struggle's internal struggle between those two clashing ideas is an interesting story that could and should be told, because it lets us use the Saiyan battle instincts as a substitute for another human element that people might struggle with, but that fact that we never get to see Gokuu's struggles—and that his love of battle and martial arts improvement always remains his top priority—instantly pops the balloon and kills any of the tension that is possible.

Basically, I'm just plain bored by that stuff, and I really hope future writers of Dragon Ball projects don't try to emulate the methodology, because they can do better.

[ABED]

Hard for there to be permanent consequences when they can literally wish them away.

[LoganForkHands73]

This may be poncy, but I think the gang's decision not to track Gero with the Dragon Balls speaks to a part of human nature nobody likes to acknowledge: people's inability to see further than their own noses. Goku is a man of below-average intelligence but even the smartest suffer from myopia. Even with Trunks' warning, the Dragon Team only take the Android threat semi-seriously because it's so distant. Conventional storyland logic dictates that the heroes should take some pre-emptive action, but Toriyama was just like "nope, not here". They naturally start to care when the consequences are plainly visible. Exhibit A: climate change, global warming. The warnings are never taken seriously until people notice something wrong with the weather or, huh, that forest wasn't on fire a minute ago.

There's deft characterisation in how each character reacts:

Goku is excited at the prospect of a life-or-death fight with the odds stacked against him, but he does have a certain instinct that using the Dragon Balls to "cheat" and kick down a geriatric old man's front door would be an unfair thing to do. I think it's on-brand for Goku to have this simpleminded, reactionary perspective. He deals with problems as they appear in front of him, he doesn't worry about far off conceptual threats. Further, Trunks doesn't give any details about the Androids other than that they're A) bad guys, B) weally weally stwong. He doesn't explain their powers (energy absorption or infinite stamina pre or post Toriyama's course correction, either would've been handy to know about), he doesn't say what they look like. Trunks doesn't understand well enough that all he's doing is whipping up a perfect recipe to pique Goku's interest.

Vegeta is homicidally eager to test his honour against these overclocked washing machines. Piccolo should know better, but he's also too proud to take a cowardly option and curious to test himself against a new enemy. Tenshinhan clings to some vicarious fantasy of being a real contender, though he's the main one peddling the whole "martial artist's honour" spiel. Kuririn has reservations but trusts Goku enough to go along without much complaint and even rationalises the decision as a way to keep Piccolo and Vegeta in line. Disregarding Vegeta's casual death threat, Bulma in her disagreement wouldn't undercut her friends' collective decision. That decision may not be the smartest, but there's also something weirdly heartwarming about the faith they have in themselves to solve the problem in their own way.

Also, I can't be alone in thinking this, but isn't there something kinda metal as fuck about how confident they are? "Oh yeah, Androids want to kill us all? Let's see them try". Vegeta and Piccolo prove themselves right when they hand #19 and #20 their mechanical asses, showing that their hard work paid off. Sure, they didn't anticipate a bunch of even stronger Androids showing up, but hey, small wins.

[AliTheZombie13]

(sigh)

Okay, I know I've spoken a lot about this, I know a lot of times topics ended up derailed because of me speaking about this, and I'm in no way claiming I'm some authority over Dragon Ball, that I'm a professional critic, or that I know anything about professional criticism. Everything I'm about to say right now is a direct result of my experience watching the show, and my resulting lack of enjoyment while watching it.

My problem isn't exactly that the characters are taking what I perceive to be stupid, selfish decisions that didn't need to be followed on for the story to remain interesting. Characters can be selfish, stupid and make poor decisions, that's what make stories interesting. To quote what ABED has told me long ago: "Why don't the characters just call the police? Because that would be boring!"

On a fundamental level, I understand the story needs to happen one way or another. That's why I don't complain about things like, "Why don't they just wish for Shen Long to explode every single Saiyan Spaceship? Why don't they just call Spike the Devilman to explode every single evil character who pops up in the story? Why don't they just use the Mafuba against other characters who aren't Piccolo?"

All of that being said, like I mentioned several times in my posts, and this might be a personal thing for me as it is for many other people, but there is a common quote that is thrown around when discussing not only Dragon Ball, but media in general: "If the characters themselves don't care, then why should I?" And I feel this encapsulates perfectly my feelings not only about this scene, but the Cell Saga in general.

Mind you, the "Let's do nothing" scene is just the first of many instances in the Cell Saga where the characters have the means to stop the conflict, but either decide to do nothing or do something mindbogglingly stupid, and then proceed to spend the entire rest of the arc complaining that they should've done something.

To bring up another scene that I hate about this arc: Tenshinhan, Goku and Gohan spend several panels complaining that "Cell is a monster, there's absolutely nothing we can do to stop this!" while Piccolo and the Cyborgs get the crap beaten out of them on that island. #16 keeps repeatedly telling #17 and #18 to run away, and they don't. #18 even acknowledges for a moment that she should be running away... and yet she isn't.

Then #17 is absorbed. #18 is still not running away, Tenshinhan reveals that despite what he kept saying moments earlier, there was something he could do. Goku, likewise, reveals that, despite what he kept saying moments earlier, there was something he could do. And don't even get me started how the anime exacerbates this problem even further by having these scenes of inaction extended and once having Goku punch Gohan for even attempting to do something.

Maybe if the "Let's do nothing!" scene was the only instance when this happened during the Cell Saga, my feelings about it would be different. But the whole arc considered, I felt that "character inaction" was a major, obvious, lazy crunch that Toriyama used to move the plot forward. So many times, this arc would've been brought to a screeching halt if the characters did something they were perfectly able to do, but didn't for varying excuses.

"We can't do anything, because we want to fight!" (until they don't want to)
"We can't do anything, because Vegeta is the strongest character!" (until he isn't)
"We can't do anything, because... We just can't, okay?!" (until they can)

OK, Dragon Ball is supposed to be about martial artists doing stupid things, but I would be lying if I said watching this repeat itself over, and over, and over, and over again wasn't extremely frustrating.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This may be poncy, but I think the gang's decision not to track Gero with the Dragon Balls speaks to a part of human nature nobody likes to acknowledge: people's inability to see further than their own noses. Goku is a man of below-average intelligence but even the smartest suffer from myopia. Even with Trunks' warning, the Dragon Team only take the Android threat semi-seriously because it's so distant. Conventional storyland logic dictates that the heroes should take some pre-emptive action, but Toriyama was just like "nope, not here". They naturally start to care when the consequences are plainly visible. Exhibit A: climate change, global warming. The warnings are never taken seriously until people notice something wrong with the weather or, huh, that forest wasn't on fire a minute ago.

There's deft characterisation in how each character reacts:

Goku is excited at the prospect of a life-or-death fight with the odds stacked against him, but he does have a certain instinct that using the Dragon Balls to "cheat" and kick down a geriatric old man's front door would be an unfair thing to do. I think it's on-brand for Goku to have this simpleminded, reactionary perspective. He deals with problems as they appear in front of him, he doesn't worry about far off conceptual threats. Further, Trunks doesn't give any details about the Androids other than that they're A) bad guys, B) weally weally stwong. He doesn't explain their powers (energy absorption or infinite stamina pre or post Toriyama's course correction, either would've been handy to know about), he doesn't say what they look like. Trunks doesn't understand well enough that all he's doing is whipping up a perfect recipe to pique Goku's interest.

Vegeta is homicidally eager to test his honour against these overclocked washing machines. Piccolo should know better, but he's also too proud to take a cowardly option and curious to test himself against a new enemy. Tenshinhan clings to some vicarious fantasy of being a real contender, though he's the main one peddling the whole "martial artist's honour" spiel. Kuririn has reservations but trusts Goku enough to go along without much complaint and even rationalises the decision as a way to keep Piccolo and Vegeta in line. Disregarding Vegeta's casual death threat, Bulma in her disagreement wouldn't undercut her friends' collective decision. That decision may not be the smartest, but there's also something weirdly heartwarming about the faith they have in themselves to solve the problem in their own way.

Also, I can't be alone in thinking this, but isn't there something kinda metal as fuck about how confident they are? "Oh yeah, Androids want to kill us all? Let's see them try". Vegeta and Piccolo prove themselves right when they hand #19 and #20 their mechanical asses, showing that their hard work paid off. Sure, they didn't anticipate a bunch of even stronger Androids showing up, but hey, small wins.

I was literally warned against not doing this but that's one good point no one ever brought up in my memory as a DF, which means never ever.

To add more meat and make this less of a filler I AGREE post, there are probably various mitigating factors that might make Goku's decision but they never get heard because people always to go extremes instead of the nuances. Sure I STILL think Goku's hideously irresponsible and I DONT think its particularly engaging so it doesnt make up for it... But even though I am wary of ABED's "Goku's not meant to be likeable, this is his true self" (People are allowed to not like this side of Goku or how the show enables him) he is correct in that he can just wish away any death, Trunks may have warned him, but to Goku who just came out of a really bleak situation against the strongest guy in the universe, it might not have really seen as big a deal. HECK I think Goku might have actually been TERRIFIED nothing or anyone could ever challenge him again. Sure, Toriyama doesnt take this road which might have made things make sense AND be interesting. But it is a possibility and makes this decision less dumb

But I think Toriyama did know this and as far as can be said, this was his intent all along, whether if this is a plus or a minus is unclear though.

[ABED]

For the record, I didn't say (or I don't think I did) Goku's not meant to be likable. I said this decision not to stop the creation of the cyborgs isn't meant to be likable.

To quote what ABED has told me long ago: "Why don't the characters just call the police? Because that would be boring!"

I was quoting Hitchcock.

"If the characters themselves don't care, then why should I?"

They do care, just not neccessarily about the same things you and I generally would, or at least not in the same order. Take for instance Goku during the 23rd Budokai. He cares about the fate of the world, but it's not his priority. He does care about the title. There are things he cares about.

[tonysoprano300]

Hard for there to be permanent consequences when they can literally wish them away.

Tell that to the people who died in west city

[AliTheZombie13]

Hard for there to be permanent consequences when they can literally wish them away.

Tell that to the people who died in west city

Also: The Earth Dragon Balls can only resurrect people once. The people who died once to King Piccolo, the people who died once to Vegeta and Nappa during their first rampage, the people who died once during Vegeta's fight against #18 on that highway, and the people who died once to Cell are not coming back again. So things like, "Eh, Vegeta killed a whole seat of spectators on the Budokai, who cares?! That's what the Dragon Balls are for!" can only be used as an excuse so many times before it becomes contradictory, it sure did by the time GT happened.

I think that's why Toriyama introduced that rule in the first place, so the story would still have some consequence, despite the fact they have a consequence nullifier at their disposal. But I guess even Toriyama forgot about it eventually.

[ABED]

Hard for there to be permanent consequences when they can literally wish them away.

Tell that to the people who died in west city

Also: The Earth Dragon Balls can only resurrect people once. The people who died once to King Piccolo, the people who died once to Vegeta and Nappa during their first rampage, and the people who died once during Vegeta's fight against #18 on that highway are not coming back again. So things like, "Eh, Vegeta killed a whole seat of spectators on the Budokai, who cares?! That's what the Dragon Balls are for!" can only do so much.

And after every single Earthling died because of Boo's rampage, it's even more egregious. I loved when GT brought that plot point and used it against the main cast (even if executed not perfectly).

And what is the West City example?

Except that there are other Dragon Balls and the limits of the Namekian DBs got lifted.

Sorry folks, I don't care about citizens in a story that I don't see and don't know. I just don't, and I don't think many audience members do care. I am actually more emotionally invested when things are more concrete than just superhero level "fate of the world". The old couple getting murdered by that asshole murdering people during the Buu arc is far more real and visceral bc it's down to Earth. It's all too real.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Hard for there to be permanent consequences when they can literally wish them away.

Tell that to the people who died in west city

Also: The Earth Dragon Balls can only resurrect people once. The people who died once to King Piccolo, the people who died once to Vegeta and Nappa during their first rampage, and the people who died once during Vegeta's fight against #18 on that highway are not coming back again. So things like, "Eh, Vegeta killed a whole seat of spectators on the Budokai, who cares?! That's what the Dragon Balls are for!" can only do so much.

And after every single Earthling died because of Boo's rampage, it's even more egregious. I loved when GT brought that plot point and used it against the main cast (even if executed not perfectly).

I hate to go AKSHUALLY... But actually these people were never revived at all. The various wishes were made to resurrect the namekians, whoever died in the Frieza arc who was good,(And Vegeta natch) but for the people Nappa and Vegeta killed, that was the way the cookie crumbled.


I know this for MORE GOOD for your argument than against but I had to mention it.

[AliTheZombie13]

I hate to go AKSHUALLY... But actually these people were never revived at all. The various wishes were made to resurrect the namekians, whoever died in the Frieza arc who was good,(And Vegeta natch) but for the people Nappa and Vegeta killed, that was the way the cookie crumbled.


I know this for MORE GOOD for your argument than against but I had to mention it.

Fuck, you're right. The people Vegeta and Nappa killed never came back.
Still, the entire Earth can't be resurrected again by the Earth Dragon Balls after the Boo Saga, so there's that.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I hate to go AKSHUALLY... But actually these people were never revived at all. The various wishes were made to resurrect the namekians, whoever died in the Frieza arc who was good,(And Vegeta natch) but for the people Nappa and Vegeta killed, that was the way the cookie crumbled.


I know this for MORE GOOD for your argument than against but I had to mention it.

Fuck, you're right. The people Vegeta and Nappa killed never came back.
Still, the entire Earth can't be resurrected again by the Earth Dragon Balls after the Boo Saga, so there's that.

Oh wow that is terrifying, but like ABED said the Dragon Balls both Earth and Namekian WERE powered up. And wisely Toriyama hasnt really blown up the earth and expected the cast to undo it with the Dragon Balls again.

[ABED]

My point wasn't everyone who was killed came back, just that they could if anyone cared to bring them back. The death and destruction feels far less visceral when they CAN bring everyone back. Hell, Kuririn was brought back way more than the one time originally allotted.

But I don't want to lose the forest from the trees. The point I'm driving at is that the stakes have never really been the world. Even if these were superheroes, the fate of the world wouldn't be stakes I necessarily care about because I know the chances of them failing to save the world ultimately are slim. Goku achieving his goal of winning a tournament isn't guaranteed. Vegeta caring about his son is also not a lock. Trunks' death and Vegeta's reaction to it mean more to me than the fate of the world because the former feels more relatable and grounded and more in question than whether Cell will kill everyone on Earth.

What I liked about the consequences of the overuse of the DB's aren't just the plot related ones. That's great. What I like most is the whole "no free lunches".

[tonysoprano300]

I think it's bad writing in that little is ever done to consistently use it as an entertaining element that leads to our characters constantly having it come back to bite them in the ass. It happens once at the end of the Cell arc, and still really something that acts as a permanent change in the status quo. Toriyama needed and editor to push him to consider the consequences more.

This is something that effects Dragon Ball in general, especially post-Raditz. Toriyama is so deadset on trying to make his characters flawed that he does so not in any way that is relatable and serves creating new drama as a result, but purely to justify a story arcs existence. Ali has spoken about this a lot lately, and I definitely have to agree with them.

The relative lack of trying to stop Dr. Gero before he creates the artificial humans does not make Gokuu and friends more interesting, in large part because Toriyama specifically goes out of his way to avoid writing to make his stories and characters overtly meaningful. Toriyama isn't really doing much with his writing decisions, outside of using them to justify an ending with an otherwise neat bow.

Toriyama should have been asking a lot more questions and trying to answer them, and unfortunately he doesn't really do that nearly as much as he could consistently be doing. I think that sucks, because Toriyama could also just as easily written Gokuu and friends with the opposite ideology and then mined that for character stuff, too.

Personally, now that I'm older and have more life experience beyond just being a fangirl, I think that Gokuu's bullshit from the latter half of the Saiyan arc onward is just boring. Gokuu was at his best when he had more realistic and humanistic touches, like caring about Gohan, and seeing himself in the light of "I'm a parent now, and that means something." That’s real and understandable. "I'll let the genocidal manic go so I can do a martial arts against him later" is not[/] real or understandable. Showing Gokuu struggle's internal struggle between those two clashing ideas is an interesting story that could and should be told, because it lets us use the Saiyan battle instincts as a substitute for another human element that people might struggle with, but that fact that we never get to see Gokuu's struggles—and that his love of battle and martial arts improvement always remains his top priority—instantly pops the balloon and kills any of the tension that is possible.

Basically, I'm just plain bored by that stuff, and I really hope future writers of Dragon Ball projects don't try to emulate the methodology, because they can do better.

Wholeheartedly agree, I feel Gokus callousness in the original Dragon Ball felt more like he was just a loveable naive boy who had a very simplistic set of ethics. Even during his battle with Piccolo Jr, he still is fighting him with the idea that they are both having to follow the rules of the tournament. A tournament they both signed up for and agreed to fight in under those constraints. In Gokus mind, it would be dirty to try and fight in a way that violates the rules they agreed upon.

Later on that became far more toxic and destructive, specifically at the ending of the saiyan arc onwards(as you mentioned).

I don’t even think the Gero situation needed to be addressed diagetically if it wasn’t going to be used as a way to do something interesting. In the past DB has never particularly cared about accounting for every possible plot hole or inconsistency. As far as these things go, it was relatively inoffensive. If they never addressed, I would just assume that the Dragon Balls can’t do it and move on.

[tonysoprano300]

Tell that to the people who died in west city

Also: The Earth Dragon Balls can only resurrect people once. The people who died once to King Piccolo, the people who died once to Vegeta and Nappa during their first rampage, and the people who died once during Vegeta's fight against #18 on that highway are not coming back again. So things like, "Eh, Vegeta killed a whole seat of spectators on the Budokai, who cares?! That's what the Dragon Balls are for!" can only do so much.

And after every single Earthling died because of Boo's rampage, it's even more egregious. I loved when GT brought that plot point and used it against the main cast (even if executed not perfectly).

And what is the West City example?

Except that there are other Dragon Balls and the limits of the Namekian DBs got lifted.

Sorry folks, I don't care about citizens in a story that I don't see and don't know. I just don't, and I don't think many audience members do care. I am actually more emotionally invested when things are more concrete than just superhero level "fate of the world". The old couple getting murdered by that asshole murdering people during the Buu arc is far more real and visceral bc it's down to Earth. It's all too real.

Thats fair, just saying that those people stayed dead permanently specifically because the Dragon Team decided to fuck around and find out. So they are actually culpable for the deaths of innocent people.

I hate to bring this up but even when Goku in the Zamasu Arc got an entire universe wiped out, it was because he stupidly forgot the seal to the Mafuba, it wasn’t him making an intentional choice not to use it.