Goku is not really a low class saiyan warrior, he's a genetic freak of nature

[tonysoprano300]

I realize the general consensus is that Goku was originally supposed to be more of an every man, a guy who wasn't destined for greatness but rather a guy who created his own destiny through the never ending desire to constantly push his limits.That's supposed to be the thing that seperates from his peers, at least starting with the saiyan arc.

But honestly? that entire exchange between Goku and Vegeta is not only contradicted by everything that came afterwards but it's contradicted by the facts that led up to that fight. Its actually Vegeta who spent majority of his life battling on the front lines in a multitude of different environments that had significantly harsher conditions than that on Earth. Goku on the other hand spent 158 days training in 10x gravity and was able to transition from being weaker than a saibaman to stronger than Nappa. The training that he did on King Kai's planet, mostly consisted of him chasing after Bubbles/mastering 10x gravity and learning a few techniques.

In the subsequent story arcs, we know that Goku went into ROSAT for less than a year and significantly outclassed a version of Vegeta who spent two full years in that very same room. And in that situation, Goku actually went in weaker than Vegeta.

Fast forward to the Buu arc, and its revealed that Goku outclassed Vegeta so badly that he had to resort to babidi's magic just to catch up to him at SSJ2, only to realize that Goku could have destroyed him at any moment using SSJ3. In this scenario, its explicitly stated by Vegeta that there exists a genetic difference between him and Goku, where no matter how hard he trains he will never be able to match him. This is used as the reasoning as to why Vegeta put aside his pride and allowed himself to be controlled.

https://imgur.com/N4Y5y9V

Keep in mind that Vegeta is the saiyan ideal, representing the peak of saiyan society but even outside of that context in the original Dragon Ball, Goku catches up to Roshi by the time 21st world martial arts tournament begins. Roshi at that point having hundreds of years of experience under his belt.


Thematically, its a really powerful idea but in retrospect it almost feels like Toriyama went out of his way to contradict it.

[Grimlock]

Fast forward to the Buu arc, and its revealed that Goku outclassed Vegeta so badly that he had to resort to babidi's magic just to catch up to him at SSJ2, only to realize that Goku could have destroyed him at any moment using SSJ3. In this scenario, its explicitly stated by Vegeta that there exists a genetic difference between him and Goku, where no matter how hard he trains he will never be able to match him.

Huh, I wonder why there was (and still there is?) so much fuss about Bardock being the Legendary Super Saiyan and how it destroys "Goku's hard work"... If Goku is the way he is due to genetic, this shouldn't be an issue then.

[MasenkoHA]

Goku was constantly fighting opponents as strong or stronger than him: Jackie Chun, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, and even Vegeta himself. Goku was also willing to go through training that pushed his own personal limits: Turtle Hermit training, Master Karin's secret training for the holy water, Kami and Popo's training in the heavenly realm, and Kaio's training


Vegeta can talk about fighting in the front lines all he wants, we have no reason to believe he ever did much to push himself before meeting Goku. He seemed to mostly stick to massacring planets with denizens far weaker than he was. Even on Namek he let his Saiyan biology do all the work to let him one up opponents previously stronger than him until he hit a wall with Freeza. Meanwhile Goku was going through intense 100x gravity training all the way to Namek. It took until preparing for the artificial humans for Vegeta to finally take a page from Goku's book and actually do some goddamn training.

It's less Goku's a freak of nature and more Goku has experience with pushing himself since he was 12 years old. Vegeta didn't seem to bother until much later in life.

[Jack Bz]

I mean, it's spelled out for us extremely clearly that Goku surpassed Vegeta in the Rosat because he trained smarter. He instantly knew what was wrong with his new super saiyan forms and knew what to do to course correct. That's not at all a point in this argument's favour.

[Jord]

He's the Scott Steiner of Dragon Ball.

[AliTheZombie13]

To be fair, the entire concept of "You don't get stronger by magic, you get stronger through hard work and dedication" lost all credibility as early as Namek, when it was revealed that Saiyans have the inherent ability to get stronger by existing.

Even if you trained your whole life to get to their level and defeat them, it doesn't matter, because they'll just magically come back 33 times stronger than before. And even if you miraculously manage to get stronger than that, it still doesn't matter, because they have an ancient ritual that lets them get 50 times stronger than you by just screaming a lot (or not, if Goten and Trunks are anything to go by)

[Yuli Ban]

It's not that complicated, though.

The root of what separates Goku from Vegeta comes down to three things:
1: Goku's relationship with others
2: Goku's godly training
3: Pure circumstance (retcons from Nü DB not withstanding)

Vegeta was on the frontlines, yes, but he had no attachment to others, fighting not even to get stronger but for the pure thrill of combat and bloodlust.
Despite everything Toriyama says off the clock, his take that "Goku doesn't really care for anyone and is a far more selfish person than we think" almost never translates into the manga or anime and almost feels like a fan headcanon except by the creator if you actually read through what was there (though perhaps that delving too deeply into Death of the Author syndrome?) Perhaps most obviously this is the case is with Krillin's death. In that case, there's a good parallel not with Vegeta but with Bardock. What separates Goku from his father? When Bardock's close ally/friend was murdered, Bardock's cold Saiyan nature did not grant him any sort of "revenge power boost" or anything of that sort; it was the death of a comrade, not really the death of a best friend. That's the norm for Saiyans. Vegeta was that, except even more twisted.
For Goku, most of what we see of him is helping others, throwing his life away to save his son for example, and his own personal philosophy is to fight stronger opponents for the thrill of growing stronger, and combining those two gives us Goku as he becomes as a man
And on that note, Goku also literally trained with gods multiple times and gained literally otherworldly techniques and ki mastery and extenuating circumstances also gave him opportunities Vegeta didn't, such as the fact that he trained in intense gravity on the way to Namek. It really should be stressed that Goku was training with divine beings; the length of time isn't really what matters in the context of the story. (Also, Goku did gain Kaioken from his training with Kaio-sama, and the addition of a technique that can literally double or triple your fighting power, or much more than that, is incredibly broken)

It's not like Goku is Broly, that he was just born unnaturally gifted and strong. Indeed, technically the Z-era retcon of Dragon Ball is that Goku is the opposite: he is literally discarded waste, so weak as to not even be useful for anything other than smashing up a worthless planet as a giant monkey. In OG DB, Goku was special because of how strong he was, yes, but Z undid that by revealing that the higher cosmology of the universe was so inconceivably far beyond Earth's martial artists that it actually boggles the mind.

In the subsequent story arcs, we know that Goku went into ROSAT for less than a year and significantly outclassed a version of Vegeta who spent two full years in that very same room. And in that situation, Goku actually went in weaker than Vegeta.

This in itself actually proves my point.

In both situations, we saw a father and his half-breed son go into the RoSaT. Both pairs with incredibly different philosophies.
Trunks wanted what Gohan had: a loving father and training partner. What he actually got was a blisteringly egotistical asshole who didn't even train with him as far as we know, who did everything his own way, and focused only on attaining raw power rather than any sort of proper use and understanding of Super Saiyan.
The result is Vegeta and Trunks hit a wall that Goku and Gohan surpassed, because the Sons actually trained together, bonding, and Goku actively taught Gohan, and he realized why raw power alone was worthless. Plus, Goku believed in his son's potential and trusted him almost to the point of foolishness, whereas Vegeta didn't even want to acknowledge his son was his own and, even when he did achieve a comparable level of power, nevertheless still only acknowledged him in the context of his own strength.

Vegeta's failure to surpass Goku in Z was a case of showing why Goku's humble and kindhearted nature was superior to Vegeta's fascistic Saiyan philosophy of "strength alone is all that matters."
It's deeply unlikely Toriyama had any sort of thematic plan for Z but he didn't need one; when you have a character like Vegeta contrasted with a character like Goku and just let their characters play out, that contrast emerges naturally. (Honestly that's why their rivalry is so iconic while most other "shōnen rivalries between the goofy protagonist and edgy rival character" feel so inauthentic— in those cases, they're rivals because the story needs them to be; someone has to be the Hector to the Achilles. Vegeta accidentally wound up being the perfect rival for Goku after Toriyama had run through no fewer than half a dozen prototypes.)

That's why Vegeta only ever caught up once Super came around.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I also think Goku is just a smarter trainer... Until Toriyama came and retconned that as well.

[jjgp1112]

Goku was constantly fighting opponents as strong or stronger than him: Jackie Chun, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, and even Vegeta himself. Goku was also willing to go through training that pushed his own personal limits: Turtle Hermit training, Master Karin's secret training for the holy water, Kami and Popo's training in the heavenly realm, and Kaio's training


Vegeta can talk about fighting in the front lines all he wants, we have no reason to believe he ever did much to push himself before meeting Goku. He seemed to mostly stick to massacring planets with denizens far weaker than he was. Even on Namek he let his Saiyan biology do all the work to let him one up opponents previously stronger than him until he hit a wall with Freeza. Meanwhile Goku was going through intense 100x gravity training all the way to Namek. It took until preparing for the artificial humans for Vegeta to finally take a page from Goku's book and actually do some goddamn training.

It's less Goku's a freak of nature and more Goku has experience with pushing himself since he was 12 years old. Vegeta didn't seem to bother until much later in life.

It's pretty heavily implied that Saiyans just flat out didn't train. Unless you made a habit of fighting above your weight class and getting beaten half-to-death like Bardock & crew there was no real effort at bettering one's self, just biology and vibes. The instant Vegeta actually started training he got way further than he ever did in Frieza's system, but at the same time he went about training in a flawed way, thinking it was all about destroying his body in the same way newbies hitting the gym for the first time and desiring a pro wrestler physique without patience go straight to 300 LB weights and only #gain physical therapy invoices for ligament tears and chronic pain.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Goku was constantly fighting opponents as strong or stronger than him: Jackie Chun, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, and even Vegeta himself. Goku was also willing to go through training that pushed his own personal limits: Turtle Hermit training, Master Karin's secret training for the holy water, Kami and Popo's training in the heavenly realm, and Kaio's training


Vegeta can talk about fighting in the front lines all he wants, we have no reason to believe he ever did much to push himself before meeting Goku. He seemed to mostly stick to massacring planets with denizens far weaker than he was. Even on Namek he let his Saiyan biology do all the work to let him one up opponents previously stronger than him until he hit a wall with Freeza. Meanwhile Goku was going through intense 100x gravity training all the way to Namek. It took until preparing for the artificial humans for Vegeta to finally take a page from Goku's book and actually do some goddamn training.

It's less Goku's a freak of nature and more Goku has experience with pushing himself since he was 12 years old. Vegeta didn't seem to bother until much later in life.

It's pretty heavily implied that Saiyans just flat out didn't train. Unless you made a habit of fighting above your weight class and getting beaten half-to-death like Bardock & crew there was no real effort at bettering one's self, just biology and vibes. The instant Vegeta actually started training he got way further than he ever did in Frieza's system, but at the same time he went about training in a flawed way, thinking it was all about destroying his body in the same way newbies hitting the gym for the first time and desiring a pro wrestler physique without patience go straight to 300 LB weights and only #gain physical therapy invoices for ligament tears and chronic pain.

It's actually heartwarming to think about. "No, you dont need to rip your body to pieces with the heaviest weights, you can grow better by starting from way less" this is so good to know.

[90sDBZ]

I feel like Goku being more open to training with others is a big part of why he stays ahead of Vegeta.

Goku spends most of his time in the Time Chamber sparring with Gohan. It also helps that Gohan is actually stronger in than him in SS1 towards the end of it.

Vegeta largely trains alone. I think it's implied he eventually trained with Trunks a bit, but only after initially rejecting him.

Goku then spends 7 years training with strong fighters in the afterlife, while Vegeta continues to grind alone.

The earlier part of the story also leans towards Vegeta being more of a natural. Goku trained hard throughout OG DB, and even drank the Ultra Divine Water, and still wasn't even as strong as Raditz. It might be because his opponents in DB weren't as strong as those available on other planets, and earth lacked the extreme gravity of Planet Vegeta. Then again he did supposedly spend a month in the Time Chamber as a kid (which contradicts his initial reaction to King Kai's gravity).

[MasenkoHA]

To be fair, the entire concept of "You don't get stronger by magic, you get stronger through hard work and dedication" lost all credibility as early as Namek, when it was revealed that Saiyans have the inherent ability to get stronger by existing.

And Vegeta who was skating by on this trait got his shit rocked by Freeza...

Meanwhile Goku who actually did train hard performed much better and far and away surpassed Vegeta.

So idk how it loses credibility when you look at what actually happens between Goku and Vegeta in the Namek arc

. The instant Vegeta actually started training he got way further than he ever did in Frieza's system, but at the same time he went about training in a flawed way, thinking it was all about destroying his body in the same way newbies hitting the gym for the first time and desiring a pro wrestler physique without patience go straight to 300 LB weights and only #gain physical therapy invoices for ligament tears and chronic pain.

Never thought of it like that but accurate and fitting for DBZ's gym bro culture

[tonysoprano300]

Goku was constantly fighting opponents as strong or stronger than him: Jackie Chun, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, and even Vegeta himself. Goku was also willing to go through training that pushed his own personal limits: Turtle Hermit training, Master Karin's secret training for the holy water, Kami and Popo's training in the heavenly realm, and Kaio's training.

Sure but if we're being honest none of that training really meant anything against Vegeta in the saiyan arc, the only thing that did was Goku's training on King Kai's planet which we know only consisted of Goku learning a few techniques and getting acclimated to 10x gravity(Gravity which the saiyans spent all their lives in). It wasnt until Goku was placed on an even playing ground( which is the access to gravity training) that he managed to make any serious headway. And honestly how different is what Goku did on Kaio's planet to say what Vegeta would be doing on the front lines? Outside of learning a few techniques, most of it was just Goku doing strength training and running around catching bubbles.

The ki mastery aspect is somewhat of an edge but Vegeta seemed to posess expert ki mastery himself, the only real diffrentiating factor was that Goku cound sense ki and Vegeta could not, then he literally just taught himself how to do it in his space pod on the way to Namek. Vegeta specifically cites his experience on the front lines as the reason he was able to get as far as he did against Qui.

I mean, it's spelled out for us extremely clearly that Goku surpassed Vegeta in the Rosat because he trained smarter. He instantly knew what was wrong with his new super saiyan forms and knew what to do to course correct. That's not at all a point in this argument's favour.

According to the Cell arc, Goku decided to focus on mastering the standard super saiyan form as move towards stamina and energy conservation. They both recognized the ultimate weakness with Trunk's form but Goku decided to focus on maximizing efficiency over increasing power...that would be way more compelling of a contrast if Goku didnt also just happen to significantly outclass Vegeta in terms raw power output as well. Like if it was demonstated that Goku's focus on the spiritual martial arts practice led to him being far more proficient in battle despite having a lower overall power level then it would 100% articulate the idea of "smarts/hardwork vs natural talent".

But given that Goku was able to surpass Vegeta in terms of raw battle power without that even being the focus of his training then it just makes it look like Goku is so much better than Vegeta that he can surpass him without even trying.

And just as a final point, Saiyans do train. Here's a direct statment from Radditz:

https://imgur.com/WvBTn3V

https://imgur.com/NN5BhIA

[Cure Dragon 255]

I am surprised Tonysoprano is getting so many thoughtful, character driven, well written and received arguments and STILL buys into the "Vegeta is the real underdog and goku is the privileged one." Its notable because normally, he is one to REALLY appreciate good and nuanced writing and this is something Toriyama kept consistent and nuanced. Goku is stronger than Vegeta because he is smart at training, knowing how to improve himself and grow and that he needs a stronger partner to outdo himself and that Gohan could be the badass he became. It's really odd that tony would buy that "Vegeta is the real underdog and the smarter training coach" Super bullshit Toriyama is selling. Because like I said in another thread I started, this is a retroactive bullshit Toriyama came up with when he wrote Super because he didnt have the context of actually being the creator and knowing his creation better than anyone else.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku excels among Saiyans because he was thought how to be tough in mind and spirit. That’s not a thing genetics can do for anyone. He never got so far because he is a Saiyan, this is only a layer of his strength.

[MasenkoHA]

[


Sure but if we're being honest none of that training really meant anything against Vegeta in the saiyan arc,

It totally did though because if he hadn't gone through the training he would have been crushed by Nappa, nevermind Vegeta.

He likely would have won the fight with Kaio-ken (or at least forced Vegeta to retreat early) if Vegeta didn't know the artificial moon technique.

the only thing that did was Goku's training on King Kai's planet which we know only consisted of Goku learning a few techniques and getting acclimated to 10x gravity(Gravity which the saiyans spent all their lives in).

Irrelevant since Goku didn't grow up on planet Vegeta. He wasn't used to the 10x gravity so it pushed him.

. And honestly how different is what Goku did on Kaio's planet to say what Vegeta would be doing on the front lines? Outside of learning a few techniques, most of it was just Goku doing strength training and running around catching bubbles.

Pushing oneself past their limits vs killing some aliens most of who are probably a lot weaker than you. Guess which is gonna get more progress? Vegeta's been that naturally muscular guy who does 10 push ups a day and calls it good while Goku has his whole ass training regimen.

Vegeta didn't start doing gravity training until after Goku did, which tell us he probably never even thought of it until then.

Given his complete reliance on Saiyan biology, I am gonna guess Vegeta never did much actual training that actively pushed him the same way Goku had been doing since his Kame Sennin training days.

[Shintoki]

Goku was constantly fighting opponents as strong or stronger than him: Jackie Chun, Tao Pai Pai, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, and even Vegeta himself. Goku was also willing to go through training that pushed his own personal limits: Turtle Hermit training, Master Karin's secret training for the holy water, Kami and Popo's training in the heavenly realm, and Kaio's training.

Sure but if we're being honest none of that training really meant anything against Vegeta in the saiyan arc, the only thing that did was Goku's training on King Kai's planet which we know only consisted of Goku learning a few techniques and getting acclimated to 10x gravity(Gravity which the saiyans spent all their lives in). It wasnt until Goku was placed on an even playing ground( which is the access to gravity training) that he managed to make any serious headway. And honestly how different is what Goku did on Kaio's planet to say what Vegeta would be doing on the front lines? Outside of learning a few techniques, most of it was just Goku doing strength training and running around catching bubbles.

The ki mastery aspect is somewhat of an edge but Vegeta seemed to posess expert ki mastery himself, the only real diffrentiating factor was that Goku cound sense ki and Vegeta could not, then he literally just taught himself how to do it in his space pod on the way to Namek. Vegeta specifically cites his experience on the front lines as the reason he was able to get as far as he did against Qui.

I mean, it's spelled out for us extremely clearly that Goku surpassed Vegeta in the Rosat because he trained smarter. He instantly knew what was wrong with his new super saiyan forms and knew what to do to course correct. That's not at all a point in this argument's favour.

According to the Cell arc, Goku decided to focus on mastering the standard super saiyan form as move towards stamina and energy conservation. They both recognized the ultimate weakness with Trunk's form but Goku decided to focus on maximizing efficiency over increasing power...that would be way more compelling of a contrast if Goku didnt also just happen to significantly outclass Vegeta in terms raw power output as well. Like if it was demonstated that Goku's focus on the spiritual martial arts practice led to him being far more proficient in battle despite having a lower overall power level then it would 100% articulate the idea of "smarts/hardwork vs natural talent".

But given that Goku was able to surpass Vegeta in terms of raw battle power without that even being the focus of his training then it just makes it look like Goku is so much better than Vegeta that he can surpass him without even trying.

And just as a final point, Saiyans do train. Here's a direct statment from Radditz:

https://imgur.com/WvBTn3V

https://imgur.com/NN5BhIA

MSS1 is not weaker than grade 2 SS1 tho,, it's explicitly stated to be the opposite per toriyama in the interviews how

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more

[Grimlock]

A statement that makes as much (or little, I should say) sense as him saying "by surpassing the power of Oozaru, the tail won't regrow back".

Firstly because Super Saiyan is already mastered. That happened in Cell saga and the purpose was to get rid of the drawbacks. However, its multiplier remains the same, 50x. If Super Saiyan Grade 2 and Super Saiyan Grade 3 are supposed to be stronger forms, then their respective multipliers remain higher than 50x. Naturally, that goes to Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 as well. How do you master something that is already mastered?

Secondly, we know that that didn't come to fruition. Goku continued to use Super Saiyan 2 even after that statement (thank Dende). So I guess it wasn't rendered useless after all. Also, the same thing was said about Super Saiyan God, as Goku absorbed its power, we wouldn't have to see it again, unfortunately that also didn't come to fruition.
You could make a point that the last time Goku used those forms was in Movie 14, and that they didn't appear anywhere else where Toriyama was directly involved (the movies, in this case), but you would have to ignore Dragon Ball Super for that statement to work.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The earlier part of the story also leans towards Vegeta being more of a natural. Goku trained hard throughout OG DB, and even drank the Ultra Divine Water, and still wasn't even as strong as Raditz. It might be because his opponents in DB weren't as strong as those available on other planets, and earth lacked the extreme gravity of Planet Vegeta. Then again he did supposedly spend a month in the Time Chamber as a kid (which contradicts his initial reaction to King Kai's gravity).

I don't remember it being implied Vegeta was more of a natural but that was definitely his mindset and contributed to his resentment towards Goku becoming a Super Saiyan because he thought being a Prince meant he was destined for greatness. The most admirable part about Goku's character arc is because he's considered low level trash and becomes the strongest through his commitment to training and fighting stronger opponents.

I know the OP said this is contradicted, but I feel its enhanced by the fact Goku didn't have an equally suited environment for training because he less likely to take it for granted. It did feel like a recurring theme Toriyama wanted to hammer home that if you don't hone your skills you won't get where you want to be. We see that more with Freeza who thought he didn't need training because he was the Emperor, and even to an extent with Cell as he spent most of his time before the Cell Games just standing on the stage waiting.

I think your spot on about the other Saiyans getting better training throughout their lives because they were a warrior race, by comparison not all of Goku's friends were fighters, but even the ones who were like Krillin and Yamcha wouldn't be as dedicated as the Saiyans because they had distractions like girls and baseball in the case of Yamcha.

I also agree with it being established its better to train with others than alone, as you say it adds to Goku being able to connect with his son, it's more out of love, Vegeta training alone is more an act of spite, for the purpose of upping his rival. It sends a positive message holding grudges will only hurt you in the end. It was a bit of a letdown Super backtracked on this as that was a big part of Vegeta making peace with Goku's ways making him the better fighter, which GT was consistent with as it showed a more mature Vegeta who was more willing to accept help, as he did with Bulma assisting him to become a Super Saiyan 4.

[AliTheZombie13]

And Vegeta who was skating by on this trait got his shit rocked by Freeza...

Meanwhile Goku who actually did train hard performed much better and far and away surpassed Vegeta.

So idk how it loses credibility when you look at what actually happens between Goku and Vegeta in the Namek arc

Goku and Vegeta were about the same during Ginyu.
Then Goku sat on a healing tube for a while and got 33 times stronger out of nowhere.
The techniques Goku trained for and used against Freeza all turned out to be useless, and he only got saved by a magical anger-based power-up.