Do you consider Piccolo and Demon King Piccolo the same person or separate entities?

[M16U3L2015]

After seeing a thread debating how Vegeta was easily forgiven, some raised whether Piccolo was also easily forgiven for killing Roshi and Chiaotzu.

And then I thought if Piccolo is a different person from the Demon King Piccolo because he is his son but at the same time he is considered his reincarnation.

What do you think, are they the same person or different entities?

[DragonBallFoodie]

Reincarnation of the same person is a tricky thing, especially since the Demon King had previously been split from another person (Kami).

I would consider Piccolo to be his own person, simply speaking. He walked the road to his own identity, anyway.

[MasenkoHA]

Yes

It's not a traditional reincarnation like Majin Boo who died went to hell had his soul cleansed and his memories wiped and was reborn as Oob. They're different people but Oob was once Majin Boo in his past

The original Piccolo Daimao never went to hell he just transferred his essence and memories to his egg and rebirthed himself and that some how made him less evil (was that whole he purposely made Piccolo Junior a Warrior Namekian canon or just fanon?) But Piccolo Junior has all of the original Piccolo's memories and he and Kami continue to be treated as two halves of one Namekian with Piccolo Jr being the evil half.

So yes they're the same Namekian, Junior just has a soul or lost his status as a mazoku or whatever.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's a really East Asian concept that is hard to define, but the closest is that they are the same, but that the western "They are father and son" isnt wrong either.

[tonysoprano300]

“If you want to feel resentment, curse your own fate…As do I.”

I think it really depends how much you want to read into this line, he says it to Gohan when he complains that its not fair that he has to be a soldier in an upcoming saiyan invasion. I think maybe you can argue that Piccolo is referring to the purpose given to him by the original King Piccolo, and how this would directly parallel the situation that Gohan finds himself in.

I personally like to think Piccolo Jr is not the same as the original but its left so ambiguous that its hard to define.

Piccolo strikes me more as a disciple rather than 1:1 copy.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

They seem to be one in the same, just in different bodies but King Piccolo essentially transferred his very essence into Piccolo Junior so they were, for all intents and purposes a single being.

King Piccolo's death also doesn't break the symbiotic relationship. Granted we weren't introduced to Kami at that point, but there is no reason to suspect he died even briefly.

It's completely different from Oob and Boo. Oob probably has all of Kid Boo's powers because they are cut from the same cloth, but it was more a case of Boo's soul being reorganised to create a new person.

By comparison King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior have one soul, but the latter just softened with time, maybe in a way the former wouldn't. You could say metaphorically Piccolo Junior became a different person but spiritually he was no different.

[90sDBZ]

It's actually pretty ambiguous, and I don't think there's ever been a definitive answer.

It mostly feels like he's a different person with his father's memories and motivations forced upon him.

Piccolo Jr is actually surprisingly more nuanced than King Piccolo even early on. The fact that he even bothers entering a tournament instead of instantly starting a rampage is quite telling in itself.

A scene that always stands out to me is when the Tournament crowd recognise him as King Piccolo. He initially seems annoyed and uncomfortable, before going into a typical villainous speech and laughing in a way that looks forced. It's like he's trying to play the role that was forced upon him.

And I know it's filler, but the scene of him saving that mother and son from the falling clock tower is also very interesting. Toei must have had some knowledge of Toriyama's plans for the character.

And he mostly stays out of trouble for the 5 years prior to Z. He still plans to kill Goku, but it seems his heart isn't really in it as much.

[tonysoprano300]

It's actually pretty ambiguous, and I don't think there's ever been a definitive answer.

It mostly feels like he's a different person with his father's memories and motivations forced upon him.

Piccolo Jr is actually surprisingly more nuanced than King Piccolo even early on. The fact that he even bothers entering a tournament instead of instantly starting a rampage is quite telling in itself.

A scene that always stands out to me is when the Tournament crowd recognise him as King Piccolo. He initially seems annoyed and uncomfortable, before going into a typical villainous speech and laughing in a way that looks forced. It's like he's trying to play the role that was forced upon him.

And I know it's filler, but the scene of him saving that mother and son from the falling clock tower is also very interesting. Toei must have had some knowledge of Toriyama's plans for the character.

And he mostly stays out of trouble for the 5 years prior to Z. He still plans to kill Goku, but it seems his heart isn't really in it as much.

I think that aligns with how I see him as well, I don’t even really see the point of creating a reincarnation that’s exactly the same as the original. From a meta writing POV that is.

No way the original Piccolo would just accept his defeat in the tournament and leave. Also Goku despised King Piccolo, I don’t think there is a character in the entire series that he hated more than him. I never got the impression that he shared that hatred for Piccolo Jr. But it is Goku, so maybe that means nothing lol

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the difference between them can be traced from the Raditz fight: Raditz's soul went to heaven, and the characters noted Piccolo changed. Did something in him change after all these years? Was the original Piccolo even capable of change? He was just the evil in Kami's heart personified.

As for his redemption. I think the big issue in the other thread was that Bulma was flirting with Vegeta 10 minutes after they got back on Earth. Nobody else, not even Bulma, trusted Vegeta until the end of the Cell Saga (Though DBS says Future Bulma loved Vegeta despite their relationship never going past a one night stand, so idk).

Piccolo was different. He just went to his corner with Gohan and came back already changed. The Saiyan battle is to Piccolo what the Android battle was to Vegeta, fighting together his old enemies. There's even a direct parallel: When their "family" (Gohan for Piccolo, Bulma and Trunks for Vegeta) are in the way of a blast, Piccolo sacrificies himself while Vegeta doesn't bat an eye.

From that point onward, I think Piccolo was a good guy. Goku and Gohan trusted him, the humans didn't but knew that if Goku trusts him, then he's not that bad (Kuririn even calls him a good guy in the Mecha Freeza mini arc). After 17 and 18 stomp everyone I remember there's an exchange basically like this:

Spoiler:

Kuririn: Well, that just happened. But let's stick together, we're friends!

Piccolo: Fuck off, I'm not your fucking friend. I'm the Demon King, I'm going to kill these brats and take over the world!

Tien: Man, I'm almost forgot he's supposed to be evil.

Even Tien, the skeptical guy who still dislikes Vegeta, forgot Piccolo used to be evil. As for Piccolo's outburst, I interpret this as him acknowledging his identity one last time before abandoning it to become the Nameless Namek. One could even say he's insecure about becoming someone else... Even though he's mostly himself still. After fusing with Kami, there's no doubt he's a good guy. God is a part of him!

[MasenkoHA]

It's actually pretty ambiguous, and I don't think there's ever been a definitive answer.

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. If they were meant to be different beings then Kami would have died when Piccolo Daimao died. They continue to treat Kami and Piccolo as being two halves of the same being...which would only make sense if the original Piccolo and Ma Junior were one and the same.

The answer seems pretty definitive. Especially when he straight up says he's The Great Demon King's reincarnation

Piccolo Jr is actually surprisingly more nuanced than King Piccolo even early on. The fact that he even bothers entering a tournament instead of instantly starting a rampage is quite telling in itself.

They did explain that Raditz even being able to go to Otherworld was a sign the new Piccolo was less evil. It's less a completely different being and more being reborn somehow gave him a soul.

Honestly, Piccolo getting his revenge via a Martial Arts Tournament seems on brand for the dude who announced his takeover on live tv and said he was holding a lottery every year to blow up a section of the earth. And has his kanji as a calling card for people killed by his children. And then later puts Gohan in his father's gi but with the Ma Kanji.

Dude is a theatrical bastard is all I'm saying.

[AliTheZombie13]

Separate. King Piccolo was far more insane and ruthless than his fresh reincarnation.

[tonysoprano300]

It's actually pretty ambiguous, and I don't think there's ever been a definitive answer.

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. If they were meant to be different beings then Kami would have died when Piccolo Daimao died. They continue to treat Kami and Piccolo as being two halves of the same being...which would only make sense if the original Piccolo and Ma Junior were one and the same.

The answer seems pretty definitive. Especially when he straight up says he's The Great Demon King's reincarnation

Piccolo Jr is actually surprisingly more nuanced than King Piccolo even early on. The fact that he even bothers entering a tournament instead of instantly starting a rampage is quite telling in itself.

They did explain that Raditz even being able to go to Otherworld was a sign the new Piccolo was less evil. It's less a completely different being and more being reborn somehow gave him a soul.

Honestly, Piccolo getting his revenge via a Martial Arts Tournament seems on brand for the dude who announced his takeover on live tv and said he was holding a lottery every year to blow up a section of the earth. And has his kanji as a calling card for people killed by his children. And then later puts Gohan in his father's gi but with the Ma Kanji.

Dude is a theatrical bastard is all I'm saying.

It could just be that the new piccolo took the place of the original, which allows the life link with Kami to remain intact. Kind of like how Beerus’s life force is tied to whoever occupies the role of the Supreme Kaioshin at the time. Originally it was the Elder Kaio and now its the new Supreme Kaio.

[MasenkoHA]

It's actually pretty ambiguous, and I don't think there's ever been a definitive answer.

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. If they were meant to be different beings then Kami would have died when Piccolo Daimao died. They continue to treat Kami and Piccolo as being two halves of the same being...which would only make sense if the original Piccolo and Ma Junior were one and the same.

The answer seems pretty definitive. Especially when he straight up says he's The Great Demon King's reincarnation

Piccolo Jr is actually surprisingly more nuanced than King Piccolo even early on. The fact that he even bothers entering a tournament instead of instantly starting a rampage is quite telling in itself.

They did explain that Raditz even being able to go to Otherworld was a sign the new Piccolo was less evil. It's less a completely different being and more being reborn somehow gave him a soul.

Honestly, Piccolo getting his revenge via a Martial Arts Tournament seems on brand for the dude who announced his takeover on live tv and said he was holding a lottery every year to blow up a section of the earth. And has his kanji as a calling card for people killed by his children. And then later puts Gohan in his father's gi but with the Ma Kanji.

Dude is a theatrical bastard is all I'm saying.

It could just be that the new piccolo took the place of the original, which allows the life link with Kami to remain intact. Kind of like how Beerus’s life force is tied to whoever occupies the role of the Supreme Kaioshin at the time. Originally it was the Elder Kaio and now its the new Supreme Kaio.

In Beerus case his life is linked to whoever currently holds the position of Kaioshin.

Hardly the same thing as the series continously reminding you that Piccolo (jr) and Kami were two halves of the same
being. Which again only makes sense if Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr are one and the same (because they are)

[tonysoprano300]

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. If they were meant to be different beings then Kami would have died when Piccolo Daimao died. They continue to treat Kami and Piccolo as being two halves of the same being...which would only make sense if the original Piccolo and Ma Junior were one and the same.

The answer seems pretty definitive. Especially when he straight up says he's The Great Demon King's reincarnation



They did explain that Raditz even being able to go to Otherworld was a sign the new Piccolo was less evil. It's less a completely different being and more being reborn somehow gave him a soul.

Honestly, Piccolo getting his revenge via a Martial Arts Tournament seems on brand for the dude who announced his takeover on live tv and said he was holding a lottery every year to blow up a section of the earth. And has his kanji as a calling card for people killed by his children. And then later puts Gohan in his father's gi but with the Ma Kanji.

Dude is a theatrical bastard is all I'm saying.

It could just be that the new piccolo took the place of the original, which allows the life link with Kami to remain intact. Kind of like how Beerus’s life force is tied to whoever occupies the role of the Supreme Kaioshin at the time. Originally it was the Elder Kaio and now its the new Supreme Kaio.

In Beerus case his life is linked to whoever currently holds the position of Kaioshin.

Hardly the same thing as the series continously reminding you that Piccolo (jr) and Kami were two halves of the same
being. Which again only makes sense if Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr are one and the same (because they are)

Fair point, Not to get too deeply philosophical but if someone is killed and then reborn with a different soul then isn’t that a form of separation? Like would I able to charge Piccolo jr with the crimes that original King Piccolo committed?

Totally outside of the scope of what Toriyama intended lol but its a really interesting depiction of rebirth

[WittyUsername]

It’s a pretty gray area, but I would overall consider Piccolo Jr. to be his own person who happens to have the memories of his previous life.

[Majin Buu]

They're the same person.

Like Masenko said, Kami's lifeforce is tied to Ma Junior's because Junior is Daimao. They're the same guy. That guy just died, came back a little different, then became a better person over time. Everyone in-universe views them as the same guy that used to be evil but isn't now.

Junior is referred to as if he is Daimao himself and refers to himself in the same way. Gohan says he was told Piccolo wasn't as bad as he used to be after he died and came back. Kami muses that the current Piccolo isn't the Daimao of old, but I don't think he means that literally; but rather, that he's no longer a pure evil terrorist throwing the world into chaos, In-line with what Gohan says he was told about the guy.

This is even in play in modern Dragon Ball going by Super Hero, where Piccolo tells Gamma 2 something to the effect of "I'm no Daimao, it's just Piccolo now", acknowledging that "Piccolo Daimao" was something he once went by.

[MasenkoHA]

This is even in play in modern Dragon Ball going by Super Hero, where Piccolo tells Gamma 2 something to the effect of "I'm no Daimao, it's just Piccolo now", acknowledging that "Piccolo Daimao" was something he once went by.

Adding to that Chi Chi refers to him as Piccolo Daimao in Z episode 8 when she's told he kidnapped Gohan and Oolong also called him Piccolo Daimao when he shows up to save Gohan at the beginning of World's Strongest

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Not to get too deeply philosophical but if someone is killed and then reborn with a different soul then isn’t that a form of separation?

Yes, but as I've said in the case of King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior it is heavily implied they have one soul between them. There is a more clear separation between Kid Boo and Oob because the former's soul was wiped clear of all the evil and used to create a new being, whereas with Piccolo Junior he remained evil and tied to Kami from birth in his new body.

Like would I able to charge Piccolo jr with the crimes that original King Piccolo committed?

In theory yes, but as your 'Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?' thread has shown Goku and his friends don't live by the exact same moral code we do in real life. They can and have forgiven legit murderers, maybe out of convenience because they can help in battles with major villains, but no one is going to try arrest Piccolo, even if they tried he would obviously easily be able to resist or escape.

Even if we assume Goku's friends never grew particularly fond of Piccolo he did seem to have gained their trust at least. Most of them thought it was a terrible idea for Piccolo to train Gohan after the fight with Raditz, but after that point the fear of Piccolo largely subsided. Though Gohan becoming so close to him from such a young age definitely helped.

[jjgp1112]

The father, the son, and the demonic spirit

King Piccolo's death also doesn't break the symbiotic relationship. Granted we weren't introduced to Kami at that point, but there is no reason to suspect he died even briefly.

I'm picturing Kami fading in and out and heaving like he did when Piccolo died against Nappa, thinking, "It's over, I can finally die in peace and atone for - OH WHAT THE FUCK WHY DID HE DO THAT???????"

[tonysoprano300]

Not to get too deeply philosophical but if someone is killed and then reborn with a different soul then isn’t that a form of separation?

Yes, but as I've said in the case of King Piccolo and Piccolo Junior it is heavily implied they have one soul between them. There is a more clear separation between Kid Boo and Oob because the former's soul was wiped clear of all the evil and used to create a new being, whereas with Piccolo Junior he remained evil and tied to Kami from birth in his new body.

Like would I able to charge Piccolo jr with the crimes that original King Piccolo committed?

In theory yes, but as your 'Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?' thread has shown Goku and his friends don't live by the exact same moral code we do in real life. They can and have forgiven legit murderers, maybe out of convenience because they can help in battles with major villains, but no one is going to try arrest Piccolo, even if they tried he would obviously easily be able to resist or escape.

Even if we assume Goku's friends never grew particularly fond of Piccolo he did seem to have gained their trust at least. Most of them thought it was a terrible idea for Piccolo to train Gohan after the fight with Raditz, but after that point the fear of Piccolo largely subsided. Though Gohan becoming so close to him from such a young age definitely helped.

I was just referring to the idea that the process of rebirth has given piccolo a soul that he didn’t possess previously, if the original King Piccolo was evil incarnate and the new one is capable of compassion and isn’t nearly as wrathful then that to me is some form of a separation but its just extremely difficult to define.

The manga is just very weird about it, the original Daimo calls Piccolo Jr his “son” and instructs him to avenge his “fathers death”. Piccolo Jr himself refers to the original Daimo as his father, but then at other various points Piccolo refers to himself as the original Daimo but will walk back those statements by talking about himself and King Piccolo as if they were two separate beings.


One of the most notable moments is when Piccolo Jr says “The death of the great demon king Piccolo by the great demon king piccolo is 𝐚𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐝“ after critically injuring Goku. That statement simultaneously implies that they are identical beings since he uses the same name twice but also that they are separate because you wouldn’t “avenge” yourself, thats just called revenge. The line should read more like “The great Demon King Piccolo has enacted his revenge”.

Suffice to say that after thinking about this more, I have no idea what Toriyama was trying to do