The REAL reason people dont forgive GT for "Plot Holes" when they do for OG and Z

[Cure Dragon 255]

It's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING.

Seriously, that's the reason. Like Vegetto EX and others have pointed out, the forums are dominated by 3 or of 4 people, posting the same things over and over again. Dominating conversation. I promised I wouldnt make a new thread until six months after the last one, but this is a vampire that needs a stake to its heart.

[The Monkey King]

It's amazing that Dragon Ball GT doesn't have ONE stand out fight scene to its name.

It has some decent ones like Baby possessed Gohan and Goten vs Vegeta, Goku vs Ledgic.

But it doesn't have one iconic, well animated amazingly choreographed fight scene. For example DBZ had Vegeta vs Recoome, the Goku vs Vegeta fights had some sakuga moments, Piccolo vs 17 is a fan favourite, Goku vs Cell is posted on Twitter almost everyday and of course SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu was better animated than all the "canon" fights of the Buu saga.

I honestly bet that nowadays 50% of SSJ4 Gogeta fans haven't watched SSJ4 Gogeta vs Omega Shenron because that fight is godawful, slow stupid and boring.

It also doesn't help that fan favourites from Dragon Ball's ensemble cast aren't allowed to do anything other than job so Goku can look cool.
Goku's disciple Uub, does he get any cool fight scenes? No he gets one and then gets turned into chocolate by his own attack!
You want to see adult Gotenks? Too bad he doesn't appear!
Gohan's ultimate form? What are you talking about? That doesn't exist!

Dragon Ball fans can forgive a lot is the fight scenes are cool, DBS Broly going from base form to Beerus tier in 30 minutes is stupid but I loved every second of it.

But GT doesn't have that privilege because the fights, the main source of Dragon Ball's entertainment are just BAD, watching SSJ4 Goku vs Super 17 is just embarrassing, why does Goku keep shooting ki blasts at the energy absorbing android???

I think this is why more positive GT revisionism will never take place, it's just boring and more modern fans who jumped in with Kai and Super have no inclination to watch over 60 episodes of painful mediocrity.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah. I know I was harsh on my opening post but GT fans always say "Why so hard on GT?" but I have to say "What DOES it offer that redeems the various plot holes?" Until Super made cute baby Pan a badass it had the "Pan is used as a character" and now that ALSO has been done and done better elsewhere.

[ABED]

Because audiences don't really care about plot holes. They're a go to in an argument, but rarely is pointing out a plot hole a substantive criticism. Cinema Sins has done so much damage to genuine criticism. GT doesn't get as much leeway with plot holes because it's just overall a far worse series than its predecessors.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Because audiences don't really care about plot holes. They're a go to in an argument, but rarely is pointing out a plot hole a substantive criticism. Cinema Sins has done so much damage to genuine criticism. GT doesn't get as much leeway with plot holes because it's just overall a far worse series than its predecessors.

Absolute truth, I hate Cinema Sins so much.

[AliTheZombie13]

You really didn't need to make a whole new thread about it, but yeah. The actual reason people don't forgive GT for bad writing, plot holes or whatever you may call it while they openly ignore everything Z throws at them is because they just don't think the show is interesting enough.

It's okay, though. They're allowed to have no taste. (✿◡‿◡)

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Honestly I wonder would many of GT's detractors be more forgiving of it if TOEI pulled the whole "from the pen of series original creator Akira Toriyama" gimmick they've consistently done with the newer movies and Super.

Now I'm sure some here will say "But.... Toriyama didn't write GT", to that I say keep in mind companies can and have inflate this narrative because it's not always 100% true.

Toriyama didn't technically write Battle of Gods, he revised an existing screenplay by Yūsuke Watanabe, Resurrection F is a story anyone and their mother could write, Super we know likely went in different directions for the anime and manga because Toriyama's ideas were so general the final product came down to TOEI and Toyotaro's respective interpretations.

So if TOEI wanted to, Toriyama providing some ideas and giving advice on GT could easily have been twisted to say "he wrote this" if they wanted to market GT as such. Besides Toriyama made mistakes just as any writer has so his involvement or lack thereof in GT is not the sole reason GT is a flawed series.

Something I often see brought up as a plot hole for contradicting everything we know about saiyan biology is Vegeta's moustache, but I don't think fans realize, that was Toriyama's idea, we can't blame TOEI for it.



Boring is rather subjective because its an individual feeling that can come from good or bad writing. I find the Black star Dragon Ball arc boring and know I'm not alone. It's not horribly written, it just tries to capture the adventurous feel of original Dragon Ball but is missing something. I can't put my finger on it, but it does have that "if you want X just watch the original" feel.

Aside from that GT is enjoyable enough once we get to Baby's arrival on Earth with the exception of Goku fighting the first 6 evil Dragons. From that point nothing else is a slog to get through and even the fights, which are more dull than what came before are still entertaining enough for something to watch to pass time.

In any case GT has seemed to have enjoyed a re-evaluation with Super becoming the new punching bag but now that Toriyama gone I suspect we will see the pendulum swing back the other way. I wish people would just enjoy what they enjoy and stop worrying so much about "canon" though because the Japanese don't care about that concept, so why should we?

[SupremeKai25]

People DO forgive GT for its plot holes now and they do it for two main reasons:

1) Childhood Nostalgia. It's rather self-explanatory. Lots of Millennials grew up on GT and so they attach their childhood/1990s nostalgia to it and GT becomes a vehicle to remember their "simpler" days. After all, It it said that nostalgia is a hell of a drug, not without reason.

2) Super becoming the new punching bag. Is there anyone left who still denies or challenges this claim? Super is the new shining punching bag, and also the new series that nobody feels childhood nostalgia about (for obvious reasons). It attracts all the controversy, the drama, and the heated online discourse.

But rest assured, Childhood nostalgia applies to everyone, not just Millennials. We might be seeing a change in the narrative in the following decade, once more Gen. Alphas and 2010s Zoomers join online discourse. (hopefully not just on Tiktok shorts)

I don't buy this narrative that "oh poor GT is so hated!!", Nope, I don't buy it. People for the past 10 years have been non-stop saying "oh GT wasn't so bad after all, oh Goku wasn't so dumb back then" whenever Super does anything SLIGHTLY controversial or unexpected. Where is the hate for GT?? (also, btw, doesn't GT Goku have trouble counting to 5??)

Hating on GT is so 2010. Now all the cool kids hate on Super.

For the record, everything I said here applies to the Cell and Buu sagas too. Reading the old threads here from 2006 and earlier has truly been enlightening.

[MasenkoHA]

Honestly I wonder would many of GT's detractors be more forgiving of it if TOEI pulled the whole "from the pen of series original creator Akira Toriyama" gimmick they've consistently done with the newer movies and Super.

]
Now I'm sure some here will say "But.... Toriyama didn't write GT", to that I say keep in mind companies can and have inflate this narrative because it's not always 100% true.

Those saying that would also be correct.

Toriyama didn't technically write Battle of Gods, he revised an existing screenplay by Yūsuke Watanabe, Resurrection F is a story anyone and their mother could write, Super we know likely went in different directions for the anime and manga because Toriyama's ideas were so general the final product came down to TOEI and Toyotaro's respective interpretations.

So if TOEI wanted to, Toriyama providing some ideas and giving advice on GT could easily have been twisted to say "he wrote this" if they wanted to market GT as such. Besides Toriyama made mistakes just as any writer has so his involvement or lack thereof in GT is not the sole reason GT is a flawed series.

Well no they couldn't because he didn't write anything for GT. He came up with the title and did character design work. Toei as a company has enough respect for Toriyama if he had any substantial creative involvement in GT, they would have said so.

Even in Super he's at least providing basic story outlines and wrote the scripts for the movies (it doesn't matter that the original outline for BoG wasn't his, he Toriyama'd the final product)

It's true, he didn't write Super the same way he wrote the original manga but he was more involved with that series than he was for GT

Not that one's enjoyment of anything Dragon Ball should be derived from how involved Toriyama was.

[GhostEmperorX]

2) Super becoming the new punching bag. Is there anyone left who still denies or challenges this claim? Super is the new shining punching bag, and also the new series that nobody feels childhood nostalgia about (for obvious reasons). It attracts all the controversy, the drama, and the heated online discourse.

If it's any consolation, I haven't really watched either one in full myself.
But at this point I really have to ask, and I hope it's not taken offensively, why do you seem to have such a fixation on always mentioning DBS even when it wasn't actually brought up in a thread, when no one else is actually talking about it? This seems like a recurring theme with your posts, and it seems a bit strange.

But that aside, I personally don't think that one's faults retroactively make the other better, pretty much nothing has changed in that regard. And while I haven't seen both of them from beginning to end, there's elements that, from hearing about them constantly, make me not want to (minus a few clips or so here & there).

Of course, I also do realize that Toriyama's original 80's-90's run of DB is far from unassailable, we can poke holes at it all day till whenever the franchise stops being a thing in general (this site and whatever predecessors existed have done a really good job of that over a period of 20+ years and counting).

[Vegard Aune]

Admittedly I never even got very far in GT but, yeah, I think the initial point of it just being boring kinda sums it up. Well that, and it feels like its faults are so egregiously stupid that they become a lot harder to excuse. Especially when, at the end of the day, they don't seem to lead to anything worthwhile later. I watched what, nine? twelve? episodes? I don't even remember how far I got, which is already probably not a good sign. And looking at those episodes, how much did I actually enjoy? I guess that one fight scene in episode 4 was okay. But that's it. One scene. Out of several hours' worth of footage, there was one scene I kinda liked. Everything else being either uninteresting, utterly nonsensical or both at the same time.

[Majin Buu]

Admittedly I never even got very far in GT but, yeah, I think the initial point of it just being boring kinda sums it up. Well that, and it feels like its faults are so egregiously stupid that they become a lot harder to excuse. Especially when, at the end of the day, they don't seem to lead to anything worthwhile later.

I think the bolded part is the answer to this thread's question: I think people would be more forgiving of GT's writing flaws if the show was actually providing engaging material in exchange like fights with amazing animation and choreography, entertaining character interactions, well written character arcs, etc.


Consistently good lore expansion would have helped as well. For every element that feels like an organic expansion of existing lore (SSJ4, Baby, GT Vegeta as a whole), we get lore expansions that feel like awkward asspulls like the Black Star Dragon Balls, Minus Energy, whatever was going on in Super 17, etc.

[super michael]

I want to ask, in the past did GT have a subform like Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Kai?

Here are the things that are wrong with GT, at least from what I remember:

• Forgetting to fly, I don't know why Goku, Pan and Trunks couldn't fly to the ship, when it was towed.

• No healer, we don't see Dende, KibitoKai, Boo and Oob heal at all. We know Boo can communicate with Oob when they merged, Oob gained Boo abilities

• No Senzu Beans

• Pan struggling in a sun gravity and struggles to lift some people from the ground

• Saiyans not transforming for no reason and not using their SSJ2 form

• Goten and Trunks never fuse at all, even when there was plenty of reason to fuse such as against Super 17 and Omega Shenron

• Goku all of a sudden spamming ki against Super 17 and taking long to realize that Super 17 is absorbing his ki

• Base Goku surviving against Omega Shenron attacks

• Trunks being able to sense C17 ki and compare to C18, when no one should be able to detect their ki

• Saying 1, 2 and 3 is harder then Goku words to break Rūdo or create a rift between Earth and Hell

There are more, but those are the ones I remember.

[VegettoEX]

I want to ask, in the past did GT have a subform like Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Kai?

No. When this install of the forum was created in 2004, there wasn't a need (or desire) to separate that stuff out with such granularity. The series-specific sub-sections grew out of a collective community desire, most specifically, to discuss individual episodes as they literally debuted for the very first time with Kai and Super.

Like Vegetto EX and others have pointed out, the forums are dominated by 3 or of 4 people

I recognize that sometimes you need very direct feedback that doesn't beat around the bush, and so: my friend, I desperately need you to reflect on what you wrote here. That is not intended to be mean, even though it likely is and will be taken as so, but rather it is genuine feedback and pleading from me here.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I want to ask, in the past did GT have a subform like Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Kai?

No. When this install of the forum was created in 2004, there wasn't a need (or desire) to separate that stuff out with such granularity. The series-specific sub-sections grew out of a collective community desire, most specifically, to discuss individual episodes as they literally debuted for the very first time with Kai and Super.

Like Vegetto EX and others have pointed out, the forums are dominated by 3 or of 4 people

I recognize that sometimes you need very direct feedback that doesn't beat around the bush, and so: my friend, I desperately need you to reflect on what you wrote here. That is not intended to be mean, even though it likely is and will be taken as so, but rather it is genuine feedback and pleading from me here.

Dont worry, I already get it, you are right. You are not being mean.

[SupremeKai25]

2) Super becoming the new punching bag. Is there anyone left who still denies or challenges this claim? Super is the new shining punching bag, and also the new series that nobody feels childhood nostalgia about (for obvious reasons). It attracts all the controversy, the drama, and the heated online discourse.

If it's any consolation, I haven't really watched either one in full myself.
But at this point I really have to ask, and I hope it's not taken offensively, why do you seem to have such a fixation on always mentioning DBS even when it wasn't actually brought up in a thread, when no one else is actually talking about it? This seems like a recurring theme with your posts, and it seems a bit strange.

But that aside, I personally don't think that one's faults retroactively make the other better, pretty much nothing has changed in that regard. And while I haven't seen both of them from beginning to end, there's elements that, from hearing about them constantly, make me not want to (minus a few clips or so here & there).

Of course, I also do realize that Toriyama's original 80's-90's run of DB is far from unassailable, we can poke holes at it all day till whenever the franchise stops being a thing in general (this site and whatever predecessors existed have done a really good job of that over a period of 20+ years and counting).

I simply think that discussions of GT and Super are inter-connected.

In the end, both GT and Super fill the same role of a "sequel to the Original", even though Super is technically a Midquel. However, and this is the key point, while GT was very hated pre-2013, now I hardly see it hated, and most people have moved on to bashing on Super.

Which is logical, since Super is the newest product and recency bias is a thing, and since Super is ongoing, there is new material for drama and controversy.

This is strictly speaking about the online discourse, I'm sure that irl casual fans prefer Super to GT. Super was undeniably one of the most popular anime shows of the 2010s.

However, online, I'm not seeing much hate for GT these days. As a matter of fact, GT is probably seeing a resurgence right now, because as I said, people compare new material to older material, for instance by arguing that "GT Goku was smarter than Super Goku despite being a literal toddler" (this is an online claim that I have seen often here and elsewhere).

Even though GT Goku isn't really that smart so I see this as historical revisionism more than anything. (GT Goku not knowing how to count to 5, his stupidity in the Super 17 fight, etc.)

[Neon Z]

I think GT's hate in large part is just due to how it shafted almost everyone. If it had given Piccolo, Gohan and the others new transformations it probably would never have been heavily hated in the first place. Even Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta is basically only loved for its very concept, because in the actual show he doesn't get to do anything at all in that form.

2) Super becoming the new punching bag. Is there anyone left who still denies or challenges this claim? Super is the new shining punching bag, and also the new series that nobody feels childhood nostalgia about (for obvious reasons). It attracts all the controversy, the drama, and the heated online discourse.

If it's any consolation, I haven't really watched either one in full myself.
But at this point I really have to ask, and I hope it's not taken offensively, why do you seem to have such a fixation on always mentioning DBS even when it wasn't actually brought up in a thread, when no one else is actually talking about it? This seems like a recurring theme with your posts, and it seems a bit strange.

But that aside, I personally don't think that one's faults retroactively make the other better, pretty much nothing has changed in that regard. And while I haven't seen both of them from beginning to end, there's elements that, from hearing about them constantly, make me not want to (minus a few clips or so here & there).

Of course, I also do realize that Toriyama's original 80's-90's run of DB is far from unassailable, we can poke holes at it all day till whenever the franchise stops being a thing in general (this site and whatever predecessors existed have done a really good job of that over a period of 20+ years and counting).

I simply think that discussions of GT and Super are inter-connected.

In the end, both GT and Super fill the same role of a "sequel to the Original", even though Super is technically a Midquel. However, and this is the key point, while GT was very hated pre-2013, now I hardly see it hated, and most people have moved on to bashing on Super.

Which is logical, since Super is the newest product and recency bias is a thing, and since Super is ongoing, there is new material for drama and controversy.

This is strictly speaking about the online discourse, I'm sure that irl casual fans prefer Super to GT. Super was undeniably one of the most popular anime shows of the 2010s.

However, online, I'm not seeing much hate for GT these days. As a matter of fact, GT is probably seeing a resurgence right now, because as I said, people compare new material to older material, for instance by arguing that "GT Goku was smarter than Super Goku despite being a literal toddler" (this is an online claim that I have seen often here and elsewhere).

Even though GT Goku isn't really that smart so I see this as historical revisionism more than anything. (GT Goku not knowing how to count to 5, his stupidity in the Super 17 fight, etc.)

GT played Goku as a straightforward "hero", with his liking for fighting being just a side-trait - to the point you get that one scene with him telling Goten and Trunks to not even bother attempting to fight against Baby and they should just give him their energy. It's really that which makes a lot of people overlook GT's issues with characterization and push GT Goku above Super's, that often highlighted his more selfish traits.

[Hellspawn28]

The Black Star Dragon Balls still make my head hurt. No one knew about these set of Dragon Balls until Pilaf show up. How did he knew that Piccolo and Kami were one? Not to mention, they never show up on the radar before in the past I can forgive the Super Dragon Balls not showing up on the radar in the Namek saga because they are far away in outerspace. It's different when you have a set of Dragon Balls on Earth. It also makes no sense why the original Namek would want to make a set of DBs that would blow up the earth and be scatter across the galaxy?

Goku, Trunks, and Pan brought back the Black Star Dragon Balls back on Earth in 9 months. They were able to get rid of the curse that cause by the wish made by Pilaf. Then Baby use them to wish back Planet Plant/Vegeta in Earth's orbrit. Surely, that would give them another full year to find them again? Nope. The Earth still starts to blow up anyways.

[dbgtFO]

Agreed. GT is simply boring as fuck, the music is atrocious(does it even have a battle theme??!) and I do not find the art and animation direction particularly impressive.
But really it being boring is the absolute worst thing about it.
I made my username before I even watched a full episode of the series, but even then somehow I just knew that DBGT can just Fuck Off!
The fact that I was proven right in my own eyes just says it all.

It's amazing that Dragon Ball GT doesn't have ONE stand out fight scene to its name.

It has some decent ones like Baby possessed Gohan and Goten vs Vegeta, Goku vs Ledgic.

But it doesn't have one iconic, well animated amazingly choreographed fight scene. For example DBZ had Vegeta vs Recoome, the Goku vs Vegeta fights had some sakuga moments, Piccolo vs 17 is a fan favourite, Goku vs Cell is posted on Twitter almost everyday and of course SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu was better animated than all the "canon" fights of the Buu saga.

I watched most of GT, including all the important fight scenes and I have to say: so much THIS.
There's a lot of stuff wrong with Super, but at least Toei did not repeat the mistakes of GT, stepped up their game with iconic fights there and gave us a very entertaining fighting show at times.

But GT doesn't have that privilege because the fights, the main source of Dragon Ball's entertainment are just BAD, watching SSJ4 Goku vs Super 17 is just embarrassing, why does Goku keep shooting ki blasts at the energy absorbing android???

I think this is why more positive GT revisionism will never take place, it's just boring and more modern fans who jumped in with Kai and Super have no inclination to watch over 60 episodes of painful mediocrity.

So, so true. I personally will probably watch it just to get it over with and then permanently put it away.

[super michael]

I watched most of GT, including all the important fight scenes and I have to say: so much THIS.
There's a lot of stuff wrong with Super, but at least Toei did not repeat the mistakes of GT, stepped up their game with iconic fights there and gave us a very entertaining fighting show at times.

Toei didn't repeat the same mistakes in DBS, however they made new mistakes. They ruined Goku by making him annoying and dumb, the same applies to Chi Chi also. Boo all he does is sleep and not take his fight seriously.
Goten and Trunks they are not allowed to do anything in DBS such as train, battle and having sparring match. At least in DBS Super Hero that changed.

Basically in DBS Goku has to do dumb things, even if it is things that he should be good at, such as meditating and knowing about using his powers efficiently. Goku in DBS has no patience, he wants to control everyone, he is constantly saying dumb thing, forget the things he knew and has no common sense at all.