Goku and Vegeta SSJ1 > Perfect Cell

[Piramid]

Gohan's Power in SSJ1 Compared to Goku and Vegeta

By the Buu Saga, SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta had no trouble handling opponents on Perfect Cell’s level. Their SSJ1 power by that point was likely equal to or greater than what Gohan could have achieved during the Cell Games if he hadn’t held back.

If Dabura had been as strong as Super Perfect Cell, Goku and Vegeta would have likely discussed their SSJ2 forms, or at least they wouldn’t have kept it hidden. And much less would Vegeta have been surprised that Goku could transform into SSJ2 against Yakon.
But they didn’t see Dabura as a significant enough threat to require that level of power. This further supports the idea that SSJ1 Gohan had the potential to be stronger than Perfect Cell.

Additionally, Goku and Vegeta had mastered control over their SSJ1 power by the Buu Saga, a level of control that Gohan didn’t possess during the Cell Games. If Gohan had learned to fully control his SSJ1 power, it’s likely his SSJ1 form could have surpassed Perfect Cell. The combination of Goku and Vegeta’s SSJ1 control and Gohan’s unrealized potential suggests that Gohan’s SSJ1 form had the capacity to be much stronger than we saw. That is, a power in SSJ1 similar to Vegeta and Goku’s, who could defeat Perfect Cell in SSJ1 without much trouble.

If:
SSJ2 pre-Majin Vegeta = SSJ2 Gohan (hidden power, Cell Games)

Then:
SSJ1 pre-Majin Vegeta = SSJ1 Gohan (hidden power, Cell Games)

And we know that SSJ1 pre-Majin Vegeta > Dabra

Goku’s Expectations:

Goku expected Gohan to be able to defeat Perfect Cell without needing a new transformation. Since Goku didn’t know about SSJ2 at that time, he was relying on Gohan’s SSJ1 power to be enough, which implies Gohan’s SSJ1 had the potential to rival or surpass Perfect Cell.

Gohan’s Rage Boost Potential in SSJ1:

We never saw Gohan’s full potential in SSJ1. If he had been pushed to his limits with a rage boost while in SSJ1, he might have surpassed Perfect Cell at full power. However, this doesn’t mean Gohan could control that power at will, but it was definitely there.

[Hugo Boss]

There are a few inconsistencies in your analisis when compared with the actual events in the manga.

Firstly, the idea that SS1 Goku and Vegeta “had no trouble” dealing with opponents like Dabra or anyone comparable to Perfect Cell isn’t directly supported by the series. In fact, Gohan, in his SS1 form, struggled against Dabra, who was around Perfect Cell’s level. This implies that, by the time of the Boo Saga, Goku and Vegeta’s SS1 forms were not definitively stronger than Perfect Cell. The fight between SS1 Gohan and Dabra showed that SS1 hadn’t quite reached that level.

Secondly, while Vegeta had improved by the Boo Saga, there’s no concrete evidence that his SS1 form had reached the same level as SS1 Gohan during the Cell Games. Vegeta only managed to match SS2 Goku, who was in turn stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by a large margin, after receiving Babidi’s massive power boost, which further supports the idea that Vegeta hadn’t quite reached Gohan’s peak SS2 from the Cell Games on his own. This also reinforces that Babidi’s intervention was crucial for Vegeta to close the gap between him and Goku. Moreover, since Gohan’s power had declined by the Boo Saga, comparing Vegeta’s SS1 to Gohan’s peak SS1 isn’t straightforward.

Additionally, Goku’s expectation of how Gohan could defeat Perfect Cell seems to be misunderstood. Goku believed Gohan had the potential to defeat Cell, but this belief was based on Gohan’s hidden power and potential rage boosts, not solely his SS1 form. In the fight, it became clear that SS1 alone wasn’t enough without the boost Gohan received through SS2. Gohan was holding back initially due to his hesitation, but it was the SS2 power that allowed him to overpower Cell, not SS1.

Lastly, while Goku’s SS1 form in the Boo Saga was certainly stronger than Gohan’s SS1 form from the Cell Games, it wasn’t to a great degree, so probably it still wasn’t strong enough to surpass Perfect Cell either. Therefore, while it’s true that Goku and Vegeta’s SS1 forms had grown much stronger by the Boo Saga, the claim that SS1 alone could surpass Dabra or Perfect Cell seems overstated based on the available evidence in the series.

[SelfTrainedNamekian]

pui pui and yakkon on perfect cell power level? i dont think so. i will be suprised if pui pui is even on final form frieza level or even first form frieza. hes a huge weakling

[Piramid]

There are a few inconsistencies in your analisis when compared with the actual events in the manga.

Firstly, the idea that SS1 Goku and Vegeta “had no trouble” dealing with opponents like Dabra or anyone comparable to Perfect Cell isn’t directly supported by the series. In fact, Gohan, in his SS1 form, struggled against Dabra, who was around Perfect Cell’s level. This implies that, by the time of the Boo Saga, Goku and Vegeta’s SS1 forms were not definitively stronger than Perfect Cell. The fight between SS1 Gohan and Dabra showed that SS1 hadn’t quite reached that level.

Secondly, while Vegeta had improved by the Boo Saga, there’s no concrete evidence that his SS1 form had reached the same level as SS1 Gohan during the Cell Games. Vegeta only managed to match SS2 Goku, who was in turn stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by a large margin, after receiving Babidi’s massive power boost, which further supports the idea that Vegeta hadn’t quite reached Gohan’s peak SS2 from the Cell Games on his own. This also reinforces that Babidi’s intervention was crucial for Vegeta to close the gap between him and Goku. Moreover, since Gohan’s power had declined by the Boo Saga, comparing Vegeta’s SS1 to Gohan’s peak SS1 isn’t straightforward.

Additionally, Goku’s expectation of how Gohan could defeat Perfect Cell seems to be misunderstood. Goku believed Gohan had the potential to defeat Cell, but this belief was based on Gohan’s hidden power and potential rage boosts, not solely his SS1 form. In the fight, it became clear that SS1 alone wasn’t enough without the boost Gohan received through SS2. Gohan was holding back initially due to his hesitation, but it was the SS2 power that allowed him to overpower Cell, not SS1.

Lastly, while Goku’s SS1 form in the Boo Saga was certainly stronger than Gohan’s SS1 form from the Cell Games, it wasn’t to a great degree, so probably it still wasn’t strong enough to surpass Perfect Cell either. Therefore, while it’s true that Goku and Vegeta’s SS1 forms had grown much stronger by the Boo Saga, the claim that SS1 alone could surpass Dabra or Perfect Cell seems overstated based on the available evidence in the series.

This isn’t incompatible with the idea that, in a hypothetical case where Gohan gets angry in SSJ1, he could be more powerful.

If I could directly prove things through clear references from the manga, I wouldn’t need to theorize so much, and this post wouldn’t even exist. There’s no evidence that Vegeta has power similar to Gohan’s when he’s angry during the Cell Games, nor is there evidence that he doesn’t. This can only be debated based on the hints the manga gives us.

I base my theory, among other things, on the fact that Gohan in SSJ2, even while injured, was more powerful than Cell in SSJ2. If Gohan in SSJ2 was much stronger than Cell in SSJ2, then he also has to be stronger in SSJ1.

Try to respond to this, as I mentioned it in the first post, but you didn’t address it, and it’s clearly the most important point of the theory: If Goku and Vegeta in SSJ1 couldn’t defeat Dabura, then why did Vegeta discover and get surprised that Goku had reached SSJ2 when he blew up Yakon?

Both of them mentioned before Goku faced Yakon that Dabura wasn’t a threat to them, but at the same time, they were hiding the fact that they could transform into SSJ2.

[Hugo Boss]

You mention that Gohan in SS2, even while injured, was more powerful than Super Perfect Cell, which is debatable. While Gohan dominated Perfect Cell after his initial SS2 transformation, when Cell returned as Super Perfect Cell, their power levels were much closer. Only with Goku’s encouragement and a moment of resolve, Gohan was able to overpower Cell and destroy him. This shows that while Gohan SS2 was indeed stronger than Super Perfect Cell, it wasn’t by an overwhelming margin, and the difference may have been more about Gohan’s full potential and resolve in that moment.

However, that does not directly translate into Gohan being stronger than Perfect Cell in SS1. SS1 and SS2 have a significant power gap (SS2 is 2x stronger than SS1). So even though Gohan was superior than Super Perfect Cell, the gap between them wasn’t insurmountable. While Super Perfect Cell resembles SS2, Perfect Cell doesn’t quite match SS1, but rather a step in-between the two, meaning that, without concrete evidence, it’s speculative to claim Gohan’s SS1 could surpass Perfect Cell simply because Gohan’s SS2 form was stronger than Cell’s “SS2”.

Now, about the Yakon moment, you suggest that Vegeta being surprised at Goku’s SS2 implies that SS1 was enough to beat Dabra, and thus Vegeta and Goku weren’t considering SS2 because they didn’t need it. However, this overlooks important context. Vegeta’s surprise at Goku’s SS2 wasn’t because he believed SS1 was enough for Dabra, but because he didn’t know Goku had achieved SS2 in the first place. They were testing themselves in SS1 forms up until Goku revealed SS2, which caught Vegeta off guard because of how strong Goku would end up in the form.

As for Dabra, while Goku and Vegeta downplayed him as a threat, that doesn’t necessarily mean they thought SS1 was sufficient. Both of them had SS2 as a trump card. The fact that Gohan, even though rusty, struggled against Dabura in SS1 suggests that Dabra was at least around Perfect Cell’s level, meaning SS2 would have likely been necessary to defeat him efficiently, even if they didn’t outright admit it at first. Their casual attitude toward Dabra could have been a reflection of their confidence in their SS2 forms, which they were deliberately withholding.

[Piramid]

If both are hiding that they can reach SSJ2 and Vegeta discovers that Goku has SSJ2 after both stating that Dabura is not a threat, then they were confident enough to defeat Dabura without using SSJ2.

In other words:

- Vegeta knows that Dabura is not a threat to Goku.

- Vegeta thinks that Goku cannot transform into SSJ2 (he’s later surprised).


Therefore, Vegeta doesn’t think Goku needs SSJ2 to defeat Dabura.

[Hugo Boss]

Remember, the manga was strategically reserving SS2 as an ace up their sleeves, rather than openly admitting they needed it. Goku and Vegeta may have thought that they could hold their ground in SS1, even if it meant fighting at a disadvantage, and only resort to SS2 if absolutely necessary.

Vegeta’s surprise at Goku’s SS2 form against Yakon likely stems from underestimating how much Goku had advanced, rather than from thinking that SS1 was more than enough to handle every opponent, including Dabra. This doesn’t mean they could easily defeat Dabra in SS1—it just means they were cautious about when to reveal their full potential.

[Piramid]

I suppose nothing can be stated with absolute certainty because the events in the manga can be interpreted within certain margins. But based on what we've discussed, would you say that Dabura is far superior to Goku or Vegeta in SSJ1? Would you say that Goku and Vegeta would need SSJ2 to defeat Dabura? I highly doubt it. On the other hand, I have no doubt that they would need it to defeat Super Perfect Cell.

That being said, I don't think anyone can prove that there's no possibility of SSJ1 Goku in the Buu Saga already being stronger than Perfect Cell.

[Koitsukai]

My 2 Cents:

I don't think Geets was necessarily surprised at Goku's SS2 or expecting him to not have that form. I think he was surprised at how strong Goku had gotten.
Keep in mind they didn't view the forms as separate forms at that time, but rather power ups. Vegeta was expecting Goku to be weaker than he was, or on par, and he was not.

They both figured they were strong enough to beat Perfect Cell (probably with their enhanced SS which is SS2, what is what they were hoping Gohan would pull out in his fight) and they Vegeta found out Goku was still stronger than him.

[Hugo Boss]

Based on the context we’ve discussed, I wouldn’t say that Dabra is far superior to Goku or Vegeta in SS1. However, he does seem to present a significant enough threat that SS1 alone would not be enough. SS1 Goku and Vegeta had grown stronger by the Boo Saga, but not to the point where they could easily handle an opponent like Dabra or Perfect Cell without using SS2. So while SS1 might allow them to hold their own, defeating Dabra decisively would probably require SS2. In this aspect, I think Toyotaro perfectly depicts in Super how a fight between SS2 and Dabra would play out.