Daima and its implications for the Battle of the Gods

[BernardoCairo]

Battle of Gods is my favorite modern Dragon Ball story. And one of my favorite elements of the movie is how Goku needs the ritual to reach a new level of power, but doing so leaves him unsatisfied. I find this contrast between power and satisfaction interesting and complements Goku's character well. But now in Daima we see that he's been through a similar situation before, with Neva literally unlocking a new form for him. And in this case, he doesn't seem to have cared much. This is weird and makes me wonder why the ritual (which was done with the help of his family and friends) bothered him more than some random guy giving him power.
I also remembered the beginning of the movie, when Goku shows Super Saiyajin 3 to Beerus. It's funny how he hypes the form, even though he himself knows that there is a level of power above that (this is more funny than anything )

We don't know how these elements will play out until the end of the series, but I thought it was funny to think about some of these situations.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

In Battle of Gods Goku has Ssj3 and Vegeta has Ssj2, but here Goku has Ssj4 and Vegeta has Ssj3, yet this show somehow takes place before the movie. Maybe it will be explained at the end ? The only logical thing I can see happening is that Goku can't access the form, and Vegeta decides against using 3 again for whatever reason.

[AliTheZombie13]

Does it actually matter that much?
Either Daima is a whole new continuity of its own, or it gets roped into Super's.

With 2 episodes left, I don't expect them to really address the elephants in the room. Rymus' existence, Shin and Kibito defused, the new forms, the new enemies, etc. Unless it really goes there and says "Everybody's memories have been wiped out!"

[FiReFTW]

LAZY writting, thats all.

[ZombieVito]

It's really messy and this was exactly my fear when Daima was confirmed to be a prequel.

[JulieYBM]

Why does it matter? Is it going to make you like Battle of Gods less? No? Then it's not a big deal.

I fully expect the next project to just not mention the contradictions.

[BernardoCairo]

In Battle of Gods Goku has Ssj3 and Vegeta has Ssj2, but here Goku has Ssj4 and Vegeta has Ssj3

I think this is actually pretty easy to explain. Let's say (like you said) Vegeta isn't comfortable with Super Saiyajin 3 and Goku's Super Saiyajin 4 is temporary and can only be accessed through Neva's magical powers.
It's the thematic element that bothers me a bit. It retroactively makes that great part of the movie worse. I will just ignore that in future viewings of course

Why does it matter? Is it going to make you like Battle of Gods less? No? Then it's not a big deal.

I'm not saying that this matters or that Battle of Gods will, in and of itself, become a worse film because of it. It's just funny to point out.

[SupremeKai25]

As I said in that other thread, there's two points:

1) The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 could not be big enough to be relevant against Beerus. Once Goku saw that Beerus was barely affected by SSJ3 going out at full power, he didn't even bother trying to use a higher form.

2) The rules of the form are not laid out yet. As usual, patience is the key. For all you know, the next episode will state that the form only works in the Demon realm or can only be activated by Neva. In which case, that explains why Goku never considered it against Beerus.

Let's not rush to hasty conclusions.

[Peach]

This is bullshit. Fucking Bullshit. Goku had this new form all along and he didn't use it against Beerus in Battle of Gods, against Zamasu, or against Jiren? Why didn't he attempt to fuse with Vegeta in Battle of Gods if he knew Vegito could go Super Saiyan 4?

Why didn't Goku show it to Beerus in Battle of Gods on King Kai's planet when showing the Super Saiyan progression or ask if it was the Super Saiyan God form when he got to Bulma's birthday party?

Why didn't Vegeta use Super Saiyan 3 during the "my Bulma" moment in Battle of Gods or when Future Trunks asked him to go Super Saiyan 3?

Why hasn't Goku attempted to combine God/Blue or Ultra Instinct with it?!

PLOTHOLE.

[Peach]

As I said in that other thread, there's two points:

1) The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 could not be big enough to be relevant against Beerus. Once Goku saw that Beerus was barely affected by SSJ3 going out at full power, he didn't even bother trying to use a higher form.

2) The rules of the form are not laid out yet. As usual, patience is the key. For all you know, the next episode will state that the form only works in the Demon realm or can only be activated by Neva. In which case, that explains why Goku never considered it against Beerus.

Let's not rush to hasty conclusions.

"Hey Beerus, I think I might know what this Super Saiyan God form you're looking for is. Neva in the Demon Realm unlocked a special form for me a while back. If we go visit him, I can show you the form. Or if you give me a few minutes, I can come back in the form."



WHY?!

[SupremeKai25]

As I said in that other thread, there's two points:

1) The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 could not be big enough to be relevant against Beerus. Once Goku saw that Beerus was barely affected by SSJ3 going out at full power, he didn't even bother trying to use a higher form.

2) The rules of the form are not laid out yet. As usual, patience is the key. For all you know, the next episode will state that the form only works in the Demon realm or can only be activated by Neva. In which case, that explains why Goku never considered it against Beerus.

Let's not rush to hasty conclusions.

"Hey Beerus, I think I might know what this Super Saiyan God form you're looking for is. Neva in the Demon Realm unlocked a special form for me a while back. If we go visit him, I can show you the form. Or if you give me a few minutes, I can come back in the form."



WHY?!

I literally explained why.

Let me rephrase it

"Hey Beerus, I actually have a fourth Super Saiyan form, but it's really not that much stronger than SSJ3, so I'm not even going to bother trying to fight you with it. What's the point? You'd just finger-flick me anyway."

The matter is rather simple. I'll be very blunt.

SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus.

There, that's the reason why it never comes up in Super.

[Peach]

As I said in that other thread, there's two points:

1) The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 could not be big enough to be relevant against Beerus. Once Goku saw that Beerus was barely affected by SSJ3 going out at full power, he didn't even bother trying to use a higher form.

2) The rules of the form are not laid out yet. As usual, patience is the key. For all you know, the next episode will state that the form only works in the Demon realm or can only be activated by Neva. In which case, that explains why Goku never considered it against Beerus.

Let's not rush to hasty conclusions.

"Hey Beerus, I think I might know what this Super Saiyan God form you're looking for is. Neva in the Demon Realm unlocked a special form for me a while back. If we go visit him, I can show you the form. Or if you give me a few minutes, I can come back in the form."



WHY?!

I literally explained why.

Let me rephrase it

"Hey Beerus, I actually have a fourth Super Saiyan form, but it's really not that much stronger than SSJ3, so I'm not even going to bother trying to fight you with it. What's the point? You'd just finger-flick me anyway."

The matter is rather simple. I'll be very blunt.

SSJ4 is fodder to Beerus.

There, that's the reason why it never comes up in Super.

You're making head canon excuses to justify sloppy writing and bad continuity. The fact is, it IS far stronger than 3 and it's a plot hole that Goku didn't show it off or even THINK to show it off.

And even Goku himself wasn't enough, Vegito could still become 4.

And why wouldn't Goku think to master the form or see how strong it could become?

[SupremeKai25]

You're making head canon excuses to justify sloppy writing and bad continuity. The fact is, it IS far stronger than 3 and it's a plot hole that Goku didn't show it off or even THINK to show it off.

No it's not. He got annihilated once Gomah powered-up.

He was getting stomped in SSJ3 and he still got stomped in SSJ4. This actually mirrors the original, where SSJ3 got stomped by Baby Vegeta and SSJ4 also got stomped once Baby turned into a golden oozaru himself.

YOU're the one making headcanon, saying that it's "far stronger than 3".

And even Goku himself wasn't enough, Vegito could still become 4.

Goku took fusion into consideration in BoG and still didn't think it would be enough.

So No, your assumption is wrong. The story is clear. Nothing Goku had or knew at the time could even tickle Beerus using a small fraction of his power.

[AliTheZombie13]

The simplest explanation: SSJ4 (at least Daima's SSJ4, and Daima as a whole) didn't exist when BoG/Super started.
That's it, that's literally it.

Midquels will always have "Why was this never brought up after?" elements. Dragon Ball is no exception.
Same way things like "Why did Broly/Beerus/literally everyone and every single form introduced in Super was never brought up in EoZ?" get brought up constantly.

And honestly, Super itself is one convoluted continuity composed of 3 different intertwined convoluted continuities. If they don't care to make sense of it, why should we?

[Peach]

You're making head canon excuses to justify sloppy writing and bad continuity. The fact is, it IS far stronger than 3 and it's a plot hole that Goku didn't show it off or even THINK to show it off.

No it's not. He got annihilated once Gomah powered-up.

He was getting stomped in SSJ3 and he still got stomped in SSJ4. This actually mirrors the original, where SSJ3 got stomped by Baby Vegeta and SSJ4 also got stomped once Baby turned into a golden oozaru himself.

YOU're the one making headcanon, saying that it's "far stronger than 3".

And even Goku himself wasn't enough, Vegito could still become 4.

Goku took fusion into consideration in BoG and still didn't think it would be enough.

So No, your assumption is wrong. The story is clear. Nothing Goku had or knew at the time could even tickle Beerus using a small fraction of his power.

STILL. Goku showed off all the forms to Beerus. All of them. But now we're finding out it's not all of them and he held out on this. That extra multiplier could have been enough to tip the scales or at least satisfy Beerus' curiosity. It makes no sense that he wouldn't at least try. Even if he knew it would have failed, he could have tried.

And perfecting forms is what Goku does. Why wouldn't he try to push Super Saiyan 4 to the maximum efficacy and tell Beerus that he has the potential to master this form?

I'm just so confused. I'm confused, HURT, and pissed off that they've been hiding this from us. That Super didn't acknowledge the form at all. It cheapens Super.

[SupremeKai25]

That extra multiplier could have been enough to tip the scales

No... it absolutely would not have. SSJG, which is a form stronger than SSJ4 (as it's stated by multiple characters to be beyond anything Goku had at that point), stood no chance against Beerus who was only using 10% of his power. SSJ4 is legit fodder. It would get finger-flicked like SSJ3 and "that's my Bulma!!!" Vegeta.

I don't find this story confusing at all. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 was always smaller than the gap between SSJ3 and SSJG. That was already made evident in 2013. Nothing that appears in Daima contradicts this.

[Cybersai]

It's very likely Goku cannot use the form without Neva's magic. I didn't think this was that complicated.

[Krycek7o2]

I'm just so confused. I'm confused, HURT, and pissed off that they've been hiding this from us. That Super didn't acknowledge the form at all. It cheapens Super.

I saw this and I had to come out of retirement to say something: it truly doesn't matter. Seek help. Its just a cartoon. This isn't life. Just enjoy the ride, man. Throw caution to the wind - enjoy SSJ4 coming back!

[Peach]

That extra multiplier could have been enough to tip the scales

No... it absolutely would not have. SSJG, which is a form stronger than SSJ4 (as it's stated by multiple characters to be beyond anything Goku had at that point), stood no chance against Beerus who was only using 10% of his power. SSJ4 is legit fodder. It would get finger-flicked like SSJ3 and "that's my Bulma!!!" Vegeta.

I don't find this story confusing at all. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 was always smaller than the gap between SSJ3 and SSJG. That was already made evident in 2013. Nothing that appears in Daima contradicts this.

You bring up an interesting point. It took Beerus 10% of his power to beat the "My Bulma" powerup Vegeta used. If Vegeta used Super Saiyan 3, the my Bulma powerup would have been even STRONGER.

If a Vegeta who is <= 10% Beerus' power FUSED with Super Saiyan 4 Goku, just IMAGINE the strength. He would have the vigor of Vegeta defending his wife too!

It would be Vegeta x Goku or (Vegeta + Goku) and multiplied by an unknown level.

Theoretically, that should have gotten Super Saiyan 4 Vegito to a level where he can try to compete with Beerus.

Logically, they should have tried it or considered it. Beerus HIMSELF said he used 10% of his strength against Vegeta.

[SupremeKai25]

That extra multiplier could have been enough to tip the scales

No... it absolutely would not have. SSJG, which is a form stronger than SSJ4 (as it's stated by multiple characters to be beyond anything Goku had at that point), stood no chance against Beerus who was only using 10% of his power. SSJ4 is legit fodder. It would get finger-flicked like SSJ3 and "that's my Bulma!!!" Vegeta.

I don't find this story confusing at all. The gap between SSJ3 and SSJ4 was always smaller than the gap between SSJ3 and SSJG. That was already made evident in 2013. Nothing that appears in Daima contradicts this.

You bring up an interesting point. It took Beerus 10% of his power to beat the "My Bulma" powerup Vegeta used

No? I said Beerus 10% was enough to defeat SSG Goku, who is beyond SSJ3, SSJ4, and "My Bulma!"