(SPOILERS) Possible thematic significance of *that* transformation in *this* story

[LoganForkHands73]

Y'all know the one I mean.

So, in one of the other Daima threads, I talked about how I personally approach Dragon Ball now with a certain willingness to detach the logical side of my brain and see the franchise for the fun, goofy, adrenaline-soaked slop it's always really been. As with all my favourite media, I like nothing more than a bit of deeper analysis of the themes, characterisation, etc, but when discussing Dragon Ball, there's a limit; an invisible line that can be easily crossed into tarty pretention, or bigging the series up into something profoundly intellectual when that really couldn't be further from how it was conceived. It's like in How I Met Your Mother when the gang make fart noises whenever Ted talks too highbrow. Dragon Ball is great and successful because it's so simple, but it's simplicity done right. Which many good artists, writers and musicians will tell you, is a deceptively hard task.

With all that said...

If I had to crowbar some thematic point into a controversial plot point in the latest Daima episode, I've given it some thought and realised that there is an argument to be made for it.



Let's get the basics out of the way. Super Saiyan 4 is back. Or something very similar to it. Once you get over the initial "what the fuck" reaction I'm sure we all had on some level, the way it was incorporated into Daima, and by extension the "modern canon" of Dragon Ball, was... questionable, it's fair to say.

A big point of contention here is the level of foreshadowing and narrative weight to the transformation.

In GT, Super Saiyan 4 was given a good amount of narrative build-up. To briefly recap, while training in the Kaioshin Realm, Goku's tail begins to regrow, and Elder Kaioshin realises that it could be the key to defeating Baby. They spend a good while forcefully prying the tail out of Goku's ass. It's no high-gravity or time chamber training, but it's something. After fully regrowing it, he uses it to first transform into a Golden Oozaru, before transforming further into Super Saiyan 4. SS4 finally allows him to tap into primal Saiyan power while retaining his sanity. It also gave Baby, a firm believer in the Tsufruian race's superiority over the savage Saiyan oppressors, a hefty dose of poetic irony.

In Daima, the Legendary Namekian Neva uses his magic to unlock a deeper level of power within Goku while he lies barely-conscious on the floor, apparently sensing great potential within him. This causes a reaction in Goku's very DNA and... voila, new transformation.

A new transformation was always on the cards, and many fans were expecting something either tied to the Demon Realm or the Nyoibo. Perhaps a furry, golden, Sun Wukong-inspired form with pointy ears. Can't lie, those options would've been quite dope, but what we got perhaps wasn't so random.

Throughout Daima, beings from the "Outside World" (i.e. the "main universe", or Universe 7) are discriminated against within the Demon Worlds. Ever since Supreme Demon King Abura blocked free movement between the Demon Realm and the outside world, most Demon Realm citizens go their whole lives without ever encountering a round-eared person, especially since Warp-sama forbids passage on the grounds of ear shape.

According to Nahare's abridged history of the entire cosmos, the relationship between the Demon Worlds and the Outside Worlds is the opposite of what we as viewers naturally presumed. The Demon Realm is not merely the underside of the coin, but the original plane of existence that the rest of the multiverse spawned from. Indeed, most pointy-eared life forms in Universe 7 are directly descended from Demon Realm species, whereas most round-eared species, including the Saiyans, are merely the result of the Kaioshin's experiments to create new life.

With this added context, it's perhaps easy to see why the likes of Dr. Arinsu and other demons would take a supremacist view towards "lower life forms" from the Outside Worlds, in the same way that humans might view microscopic creatures grown in a petri dish. Her kind were already around for millions of years by the time that Saiyans were crawling out of their mud huts.

Goku's lifetime of adventures. Freeza's galaxy-spanning empire. Except for Majin Buu's rampage, none of the significant events that happened in Universe 7 are on the average-demonic-joe's radar at all. Of course, this leads to citizens of the Demon Worlds underestimating Goku at every turn.

One aspect of SS4 that makes it resonate with many fans is the aforementioned "primal" power of it. It draws out the buried roots of Goku's Saiyan nature.

In Daima, that aspect is, if anything, amplified even further. In his shrunken body, Goku gains enlarged Popeye-like forearms that allow him to run on all fours. Mini SS4 Goku moves in a way that is reminiscent of his "Crazy Fist" stance he used against Jackie Chun way back in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

There's a defiance in Goku using this bestial transformation to battle the powered-up King Goma, who believes in the innate superiority of the Demon Realm races (and himself above all others). Of course, this ties back to how SS4 was originally used to make Goku even more of a foil for Baby in GT.

As for in-universe explanations for how Neva was able to unlock a whole new transformation with a wave of his hand, there's definitely some precedent for Neva possessing amped-up magical abilities that no other Namekian can come close to matching, owing to Neva's highly revered status among his kind. His ability to instantaneously gather the seven Earth Dragon Balls to one place and power up Shenron in the first episode was the mere tip of the iceberg. This display is nothing more than an improved version of the same potential-unlock ability displayed by the Grand Elder way back in the Namek arc. I wouldn't be surprised if Neva is later revealed to be Zalama's father or something.

It feels that Super Saiyan 4 was used here for much the same reasons as it was originally: to prove a thematic point about Goku weaponising his Saiyan heritage in the face of powerful alien beings who would see him as an inferior life form for his savage nature.

…

Or maybe it’s all just GT fanservice to sell more action figures. That’s probably it.

[Mr Baggins]

Interesting topic, and it's something I've given some thought to as well. With that said, I hesitate to fully contribute until the show's done and we have the bigger picture in mind. I get the feeling this form might show up again in the next episode.

As for this, though:

As with all my favourite media, I like nothing more than a bit of deeper analysis of the themes, characterisation, etc, but when discussing Dragon Ball, there's a limit; an invisible line that can be easily crossed into tarty pretention, or bigging the series up into something profoundly intellectual when that really couldn't be further from how it was conceived.

As a story intended for children, Dragon Ball rarely explores super nuanced or highly sophisticated themes that only some big brained cynic can understand. It's inherently meant to entertain its audience, first and foremost.

By that same token, an opposite and equally flawed extreme is when people claim everything in its mainline material is devoid of any moral. It's all absolutely there, and varies between individual arcs/stories, but it's conveyed through digestible storytelling meant to be understood by its target demographic.

Which also isn't to say that Toriyama hasn't occasionally dipped his toes into more adult themes himself, by the way. Broly and Sand Land have that shit in spades – and even then, they're under no illusion to tell any of it pretentiously.

[AliTheZombie13]

Or maybe it’s all just GT fanservice to sell more action figures. That’s probably it.

To be honest, Toriyama has never been one to put this much nuance in his stories.

I think MistareFusion has pointed out, what he initially thought was nuance with the line about Pansy complaining that everybody in her realm has been forced to wear collars because there were too many unruly guys roaming about, that Toriyama was trying to tell a story about racism and oppression, later was revealed by the show to be "Nah, whatever, there really is some unruly guys in the Third Demon Realm, that's why I put a barrier there lol"

I don't like reading too deep into stories that have no intention of being that deep, especially not when important developments like the Evil Third Eye falling into Gomah's hands, or Hybis giving away the Dragon Balls no-questions-asked, are hand-waved away like they never even mattered... Or when the author is more specialized in telling lighthearted, black humor adventure stories that contain poop jokes.

Toriyama doesn't really strike me as the guy who likes hiding special meaningful messages in his stories. Whatever he actually wants to tell is explicitly told to the audience one way or another, everything else is more fan speculation. Toyotaro has said it best:

"If you think there is some kind of special message hidden in Toriyama's work, Toriyama sure didn't put it there."

[SupremeKai25]

I agree, SSJ4 is delicious from a thematic standpoint. Gomah is a villain who believes that demons are superior to mortals from the outside world, and that his magic is superior to all.

It's so ironic that Gomah will be defeated by a mortal from the outside world, and not just any mortal - a Saiyan, a warrior race who favours brute, animalistic strength over magic and tricks.

I wonder if Third Eye Gomah's going to lose more and more of his composure and devolve into a barbaric beast himself, like Perfect Cell and Fused Zamasu. Toriyama loves this villain arc.

Maybe Gomah continues to lose himself to the power of the Eye, while Goku learns to master his bestial powers?

[LoganForkHands73]

Interesting topic, and it's something I've given some thought to as well. With that said, I hesitate to fully contribute until the show's done and we have the bigger picture in mind. I get the feeling this form might show up again in the next episode.

As for this, though:

As with all my favourite media, I like nothing more than a bit of deeper analysis of the themes, characterisation, etc, but when discussing Dragon Ball, there's a limit; an invisible line that can be easily crossed into tarty pretention, or bigging the series up into something profoundly intellectual when that really couldn't be further from how it was conceived.

As a story intended for children, Dragon Ball rarely explores super nuanced or highly sophisticated themes that only some big brained cynic can understand. It's inherently meant to entertain its audience, first and foremost.

By that same token, an opposite and equally flawed extreme is when people claim everything in its mainline material is devoid of any moral. It's all absolutely there, and varies between individual arcs/stories, but it's conveyed through digestible storytelling meant to be understood by its target demographic.

Which also isn't to say that Toriyama hasn't occasionally dipped his toes into more adult themes himself, by the way. Broly and Sand Land have that shit in spades – and even then, they're under no illusion to tell any of it pretentiously.

I'd never say Dragon Ball or any of Toriyama's work lacks morals. Like everything else in his work, as you mentioned, it's treated unpretentiously, almost in a "no-duh" obvious way. Like, Freeza exploits and murders innocent people, of course that's morally wrong. Goku may go about it in a questionable way, but he stops the bad guys, and that's good.

Beyond the standard supervillain archetypes, Toriyama clearly had a love/hate for greedy, incompetent corporate types, and thieving bandits. They seem to crop up time and again in his work, usually portrayed as the lowest of the low.

I agree, SSJ4 is delicious from a thematic standpoint. Gomah is a villain who believes that demons are superior to mortals from the outside world, and that his magic is superior to all.

It's so ironic that Gomah will be defeated by a mortal from the outside world, and not just any mortal - a Saiyan, a warrior race who favours brute, animalistic strength over magic and tricks.

I wonder if Third Eye Gomah's going to lose more and more of his composure and devolve into a barbaric beast himself, like Perfect Cell and Fused Zamasu. Toriyama loves this villain arc.

Maybe Gomah continues to lose himself to the power of the Eye, while Goku learns to master his bestial powers?

Agreed! I think with his latest size boost, Goma seems to be losing more of his sanity. I doubt we've seen the last of SS4, either.

Or maybe it’s all just GT fanservice to sell more action figures. That’s probably it.

To be honest, Toriyama has never been one to put this much nuance in his stories.

I think MistareFusion has pointed out, what he initially thought was nuance with the line about Pansy complaining that everybody in her realm has been forced to wear collars because there were too many unruly guys roaming about, that Toriyama was trying to tell a story about racism and oppression, later was revealed by the show to be "Nah, whatever, there really is some unruly guys in the Third Demon Realm, that's why I put a barrier there lol"

I don't like reading too deep into stories that have no intention of being that deep, especially not when important developments like the Evil Third Eye falling into Gomah's hands, or Hybis giving away the Dragon Balls no-questions-asked, are hand-waved away like they never even mattered... Or when the author is more specialized in telling lighthearted, black humor adventure stories that contain poop jokes.

Toriyama doesn't really strike me as the guy who likes hiding special meaningful messages in his stories. Whatever he actually wants to tell is explicitly told to the audience one way or another, everything else is more fan speculation. Toyotaro has said it best:

"If you think there is some kind of special message hidden in Toriyama's work, Toriyama sure didn't put it there."

Author vs. reader effort is no exact science, but I also have less patience these days for putting tonnes of effort into dissecting works that the author has put nowhere near as much thought into. Worse, IMO, is forcing high expectations onto these things, because it only leads to disappointment.

Before Daima was officially announced, my interest was piqued by the leaks saying that Shin would be Goku's main travelling companion. I was excited to see how the show would pull off this odd couple dynamic and I had quite lofty expectations for how their interactions would play out. I imagined a whole scene where Shin gets seriously pissed off with Goku's carefree attitude which caused so much strife back in the Buu arc (despite some cringey writing, I think I otherwise got the character voices down quite well, so I'm reasonably proud of that).

Of course, that never played out in the show, though there are plenty of scenes of Shin getting exasperated with Goku's carefree nature and generally acting as the straight man, so that's some consolation. Plus, Shin feels pretty superfluous for much of it, ignoring his familial ties to two antagonists. But having expectations of deep character drama in a show like this was a mistake to begin with. It's just so not Toriyama's style, at least not in his modern lighthearted work.

[Mr Baggins]

Well, it looks like the final episode has indeed provided a definitive answer to the question posed by this topic.

Like most of Goku and Vegeta's character moments in Daima, this once again builds off of the themes of the original series rather than contributing to the show's standalone narrative. Goku obtained SS4 offscreen after all (like Vegeta did with SS3 – so it would seem that Neva's "magic unlock" was just meant to allow kid Goku to use the form that was otherwise only accessible to adult Goku), citing the battle with Buu as his motivation.

That's a pretty marked contrast from Super Saiyan 3, being casually achieved in the afterlife without any particular motivation. Here, Super Saiyan 4 represents Goku being more proactive against similar threats. And we know this contrast is deliberate because Goku's explanation follows Vegeta's gripe about the former keeping it from him, mirroring his complaint about SS3 in the original story.

You can generally expect Toriyama to put some unique spin on his callbacks as opposed to just throwing them in for fanservice; most of the time, in any case. So even from a narrative standpoint, I'd say Super Saiyan 4 considerably outstrips something like Gohan's Beast transformation* from Super Hero. It works largely in hindsight, but it's there. I think if I'm to level any critique against it, it's that its big reveal should have been in episode 19.

(* which is not to say I hate Beast: I think it's at least a fun design that displays the apex of Gohan's hidden power, but yeah)

[Brettjr25]

I'm not going to lie, there was so much information here and included some irrelevant stuff that it was hard for me to find what the exact point you were making at first. But I eventually understood what you were trying to say.

Basically, in GT you believe that SS4 represented the savage side of the saiyans which was used to overcome Baby and I would like to add, that it was Goku using Savage power which he gained control of vs Baby who used technology and science (or was a creature of it) for savage reasons. So I do see an interesting point within GT about your nature not determining your actions but your intentions.

But, I do not agree with this in Daima. I think Gomah was nothing more than a saturday morning foil. The demon realm, right off the bat was told to the watchers to be a diverse group of people with the Kais and Nameks being residents alongside Dabura and Gomah. There is no level of depth I see there when I watch the series or reread your post. I can't see a possible hidden or allusion of a meaning here. It's just goofy good times.

So yes, I think it was just fanservice and making it canon for figures and coolness. I mean we never even got an explanation for it. Suddenly he gets red fur, long hair and his tail comes and goes. No one mentions if this is related to their Great Ape transformation or anything. The only reason people are taking this in stride is because it IS a preexisting transformation here for fanservice. "Oooh look its finally canon! Toriyama's version is cooler! I like this color or that!" Etc.

[Jord]

Including a SSJ4 recolor was just weak. With them being in the demon realm, a new, devilish looking Goku would have been exciting, new and appropriate. Looking back I think SSJ3 was the final original form Toriyama designed?

The "new" forms from Super were just recolors and SSJ4 wasn't designed by Toriyama.

[Magnificent Ponta]

It's maybe a bit highfalutin to speak of "themes" in a very earnest and thoroughgoing way where Toriyama is concerned, but I'mma gonna - after all, he does still have a tendency to lay down general throughlines that hang together with a surprising amount of narrative coherency.

So far as the placement of SSj4 in Daima is concerned, once you get past it being a GT callback deliberately inserted at producer behest, I think there are two classic Toriyama throughlines at play: the "sentimental" throughline (i.e., the relatively earnest way Toriyama tells a story where good overturns evil in its own unusual way) and the "jocular" throughline (i.e., the way Toriyama likes to tell his jokes). Both reveal themselves in the final episode, I think, and while I'm not sure SSj4 is central to either one, exactly, it has a part to play that is consistent within each.

• Sentimental Throughline: There is an earnest, consistent throughline in Daima that begins with the premise of the adventure, and that is that Gomah is afraid of the main characters and wants to close off the Demon Realm to them so that his position is secure. The more we see of the Demon Realm, the clearer it becomes that this pattern of closing off/sealing through fearfulness is pervasive in the Realm, and is oppressive in both a figurative and literal sense.
  
  The Realm is only accessible through an irascible goldfish network that needs a PIN code to let you through (and which does not accept outsiders); the Dragon Balls are withdrawn from general use behind foes too formidable to beat; scheming rulers hide their intentions from one another and fail to form honest personal connections with each other (this is particularly represented by characters like Glorio); the Worlds of the Realm are literally closed off to each other through a series of shields that Neva raised through fear of violence and oppression from the other two Worlds - his success preserved the Second Realm, but at a cost of its pristine, sterile emptiness as he waits for a return of the Nameks - meanwhile, the choice makes access between the Realms almost impossible, easily controlled by the first-worlders who restrict the third-worlders and stop them from freely moving with police, magical collars and burdensome obligations. Even the very air burdens the third-worlders due to Neva's choice to close things off, literally weighing them down. We get a picture of a realm that has progressively withdrawn from without and within, a realm that was once a growing, living thing connected to everything else, but which has stagnated thanks to its restrictions. There is only scheming and stealing and infighting over a dwindling resource, a scarcity born from this tendency to prevent access.
  
  Gomah and his ilk embody that status quo, wanting to prevent anything from outside affecting anything inside. Goku and co come from outside and are a spur to a disruptive kind of openness and growth that is inimical to Gomah's goals (as he rightly intuits from the beginning); they consistently surprise the denizens of the realms by using their strength to access what is thought to be sealed off (particularly, the Dragon Balls, but other things too). Looked at this way, Neva bringing forth Goku's SSj4 is the last and biggest example of opening, unsealing, accessing in the story, and its advent is of a piece with the downfall of the closed-off status quo that Gomah defends (as Goku's conversation with Vegeta makes clear, this too is an instance of bringing forth what is there but cannot be accessed; Goku knew he had SSj4 in him but he couldn't access it before Neva brings it forth as part of this adventure). It's fitting that Goku's last Kamehameha punctures Gomah and all the levels of the Demon Realm simultaneously, and the actions of the gang result in the openness and freedom of the Demon Realm being restored, with its peoples no longer separated, fearful, and at odds, but collaborating and forming new connections (Glorio, of course, but particularly also Kuu).
• Jocular Throughline: The punchline to the whole series is that the Evil Third Eye, the big bad macguffin that has been built up over the course of the whole series (and incessantly the focus of the climax portion) is actually just a weird little trinket you can pick up at the Demon Realm equivalent of a gas station. Looked at this way, Daima is revealed as essentially a huge Shaggy Dog Story using Dragon Ball settings and characters (Toriyama has written stories like this before, structurally speaking - think "Young Master Ken'nosuke", where we get a long, drawn-out 'dry-run' exposition of the social expectations around dating to prepare the main character with lots of little gags along the way, and even escalating into a small fight where the little main character demonstrates his prowess, only to immediately fail on the day of the date by crashing his parents' car). So the longer this gets drawn out and the more the Evil Third Eye gets built up through apparently serious escalation using a plethora of classic Dragon Ball fighting tropes, the sharper the contrast is and the more punch there is in the punchline at the end.

If I had to guess, I'd say the joke was much more important to Toriyama than the more earnest narrative progression from sealed/withdrawn/closed to unsealed/connected/open, or the part SSj4 may have played in evoking that progression, but I'd maintain it's all still there, in a basic and general way.