Gohan's total absence

[LoganForkHands73]

Oh look, another ragebait discussion about Gohan's diminished role in modern Dragon Ball.



This post was inspired by a compilation video of Gohan's entire screentime in Daima. Unsurprisingly, it amounts to less than 50 seconds, consisting entirely of (very well-drawn) flashbacks to the Buu arc and one of the show's intros.



Can't wait to never see half these guys in the show...

Now let me make one thing clear, I wasn't desperately craving a Gohan appearance while watching Daima. Some held out hope for him swooping in at the last minute to help against Gomah, or some other fan-pleasing twist involving the return of Teen Gohan® (SS2).

No, the writing was on the wall when we didn't so much as get a glimpse of Gohan's Mini form. They provide the tiniest piece of lip service that he's concentrating on studying after the Majin Buu crisis, which is pretty much Gohan's equivalent of "he's hibernating again".

It feels like choosing beggars to argue that Gohan is in any way underexposed in modern Dragon Ball after he and Piccolo got an entire movie in the spotlight. He got his long-awaited "big win" over a main antagonist, a shiny new transformation, and the promise of continued relevance in future projects. But it's common knowledge that Gohan was not part of Toriyama's original story outline for Super Hero, which is in hindsight quite evident.

Beyond the repeating cycle of Gohan neglecting his training and having to regain his fighting instinct which we'd seen time and again, Gohan doesn't get anything close to a real character arc. If anything, Toriyama seemed to go out of his way to portray Gohan as negatively as possible, maybe even more so than his father often is. On top of his usual complacency, Gohan is portrayed as selfish, neglectful of Pan, and comically oblivious to everything going on. You're basically rooting for Piccolo to slap some sense back into him the entire time he's oversharing about his ant hyperfixation.

All that is to say that Toriyama agreed to include Gohan, and even threw him some bones, but it felt... almost begrudging. Therefore, it came as no big surprise that Gohan is absolutely nowhere to be seen in Daima.

I think Toriyama's apathy - bordering on antipathy - for Gohan boils down to his perception as a boring, static character, hence deeming him unfit for the protagonist role way back in the Buu arc. Gohan is not interested in fighting or adventures, so unless he is literally dragged along or forced into action somehow, there's not much that can be done with him. Of course, it's hard to ignore that Gohan is one of the strongest characters in the setting, but this lofty status almost feels like an unwanted fly in the ointment of the stories Toriyama actually wanted to tell... stories that were written with Goku in mind, not Gohan.

I guess Toriyama was a bit like Agatha Christie in that he grew to dislike the traits of some of his own characters, but he's so committed to keeping them consistent that he won't arbitrarily change them. To quote Christie about her most iconic creation, Hercule Poirot:

"There are moments when I have felt: Why-Why-Why did I ever invent this detestable, bombastic, tiresome little creature? …Eternally straightening things, eternally boasting, eternally twirling his moustaches and tilting his egg-shaped head… I point out that by a few strokes of the pen… I could destroy him utterly. He replies, grandiloquently: “Impossible to get rid of Poirot like that! He is much too clever."

But whereas Christie powered on with Poirot as her hero, Toriyama's approach to Gohan is to simply means keep him out of the picture as much as possible.

From this post, you might assume I hate Gohan's guts, but I don't at all. I'm merely trying to think about this from the creator's perspective, as I imagine it.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Dragon Ball was never intended to continue beyond the Buu arc, which is why Gohan and other characters either stay the same or even regress. Outside the Battle of Gods movie, no one has gone through any meaningful development since the franchise returns well over a decade ago. Getting new transformations and hair colors every story is not character development or a character arc.

[Toxin45]

Dragon Ball was never intended to continue beyond the Buu arc, which is why Gohan and other characters either stay the same or even regress. Outside the Battle of Gods movie, no one has gone through any meaningful development since the franchise returns well over a decade ago. Getting new transformations and hair colors every story is not character development or a character arc.

Yeah but now it does

[JulieYBM]

I think a big issue with Toriyama is that he was simply a very weak and limited writer. He boxed himself in with the type of stories that he was willing to tell. He would not challenge himself or his readers and viewers, hence why Gokuu and Gohan would have these repetitive arcs and actions.

As much as Toriyama liked to talk about not writing Gokuu heroically, he still wound up creating his own generic stereotype for both Gokuu and Gohan by being unwilling to move them forward from how he viewed them.

[Koitsukai]

I agree, although Super Hero did give Gohan something close to an actual arc-ish. For once in his life, he didn’t choke, he got the job done. He didn’t lose himself in power like he had before. And the whole "not really slacking" thing, we all fell for before the release.

But yeah, a silly little scene with Kid Chi-Chi telling Kid Gohan, “You already had a childhood where you went off on adventures and saved the planet. This is a new chance for you: you're not going anywhere, you're staying right here and doing your homework,” and Goku going “sumaneee, Gohan” and just fucking off.
It's like he never existed. Not a single mention, he was the Monorail of Dragon Ball Daima. He was even dropped from the top of the power scale without a second thought.

I feel, if Tori had been asked, he would’ve erased that whole “hybrids > Saiyans” thing. He doesn’t really enjoy the nature of the show, but he sticks around because he’s still the best equipped at solving problems. Even if he is sidelined for four or five arcs, like in DBS.
Remove SH, or let Akira tell his original version of SH, and Gohan would've been just a disgrace in RoF, a goofy superhero in BoG, and that's it for his participation on the entire over-a-decade-long revival.

[JulieYBM]

I still think that it's funny that in Dragon Ball GT, Gohan had apparently not stopped training. He was simply allowed to fail on the merit of not being strong enough.

The Tournament of Power arc did the whole "Gohan is going to stop acrewing around" bit the best, I think. While the animation is terrible, I still buy Gohan's battle with Gokuu there as a big, final, "Gohan's not going to fuck around anymore by not training or losing his fighting sense" that Super Hero just winds up blowing. Toriyama should have taken after the anime more.

[tonysoprano300]

I think Toriyama's apathy - bordering on antipathy - for Gohan boils down to his perception as a boring, static character, hence deeming him unfit for the protagonist role way back in the Buu arc. Gohan is not interested in fighting or adventures, so unless he is literally dragged along or forced into action somehow, there's not much that can be done with him.

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I guess what i mean is that I dont see Toriyama being opposed to just going "Well Gohan likes adventures and fighting now" and writing the story he wants. This is speculation on my end, but I think he just didnt know how to write a DB protagonist other than Goku and thats why Gohan got shafted originally. I dont think a post Cell arc Gohan and Goku can exist in the same space unless Gohan is always written to be weaker than Goku or unless Goku is thrust into the spiritual mentor role he had in the Bojack movie. I guess I might be wrong depending on if they decide to explore the Black Freeza stuff in Super's manga, but I imagine DB would have to become a series where styles make fights and I just dont see that happening.

[LoganForkHands73]

I agree, although Super Hero did give Gohan something close to an actual arc-ish. For once in his life, he didn’t choke, he got the job done. He didn’t lose himself in power like he had before. And the whole "not really slacking" thing, we all fell for before the release.

If the arc essentially amounts to "at least he won this time", that feels pretty arbitrary. He won because circumstances permitted it, not because he conducted himself significantly differently to previous occasions where he dropped the ball.

The real meat and potatoes was Pan seeing her father finally live up to her idealised image of him, which is nice enough, I guess.

But yeah, a silly little scene with Kid Chi-Chi telling Kid Gohan, “You already had a childhood where you went off on adventures and saved the planet. This is a new chance for you: you're not going anywhere, you're staying right here and doing your homework,” and Goku going “sumaneee, Gohan” and just fucking off.
It's like he never existed. Not a single mention, he was the Monorail of Dragon Ball Daima. He was even dropped from the top of the power scale without a second thought.

Yeah, that would have done the job. I remember people speculating that Gohan must have been lowkey traumatised by the events of the Buu arc, and buried himself in studies to avoid having to get involved in more conflicts.

I feel, if Tori had been asked, he would’ve erased that whole “hybrids > Saiyans” thing. He doesn’t really enjoy the nature of the show, but he sticks around because he’s still the best equipped at solving problems. Even if he is sidelined for four or five arcs, like in DBS.
Remove SH, or let Akira tell his original version of SH, and Gohan would've been just a disgrace in RoF, a goofy superhero in BoG, and that's it for his participation on the entire over-a-decade-long revival.

Eh, Toriyama must have still been aware of the hybrids > Saiyans thing judging by the infamous S-Cells interview. Considering that Toriyama was usually still keen to give Trunks and Goten roles in his projects (even if it mostly amounted to comic relief), the more likely answer is Toriyama didn't care much for Gohan, specifically.

I still think that it's funny that in Dragon Ball GT, Gohan had apparently not stopped training. He was simply allowed to fail on the merit of not being strong enough.

The Tournament of Power arc did the whole "Gohan is going to stop acrewing around" bit the best, I think. While the animation is terrible, I still buy Gohan's battle with Gokuu there as a big, final, "Gohan's not going to fuck around anymore by not training or losing his fighting sense" that Super Hero just winds up blowing. Toriyama should have taken after the anime more.

Agreed about the Tournament of Power arc. I choose to believe that somebody at Toei prompted the creation of a new transformation in Super Hero to finally fire that hanging plot point of Gohan aiming to achieve a higher level of power in a different way to Goku, as he mentioned in the anime version of the arc. Although we didn't see much of him in the manga version of the arc, the Moro arc carried on under the assumption that Gohan was still serious about training. And I suppose, similar to the situation with GT, Toyotaro concluded that the only way to keep Gohan down on the power scale was to continue buffing Goku and the threats he faces. Not the most satisfying solution, but maybe the most elegant one.

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I think Julie said it quite well that Toriyama perhaps limited himself to fairly one-note, stereotypical ideals of how his characters should act, rather than maintaining strict continuity with the original manga in every sense. For Vegeta, he largely overcame his issues towards Goku at the end of the Buu arc, but to Toriyama, Vegeta is always stuck as an insecure second-placer, and he seemed to prefer writing Vegeta in that kind of dynamic with Goku. For Gohan, Toriyama viewed him as a boring square - the stereotypical quarter-life-crisis Japanese workaholic. No matter how many times he learns his lesson about training harder, a dull scholar's life is all he'd ever amount to.

[JulieYBM]

I still think that it's funny that in Dragon Ball GT, Gohan had apparently not stopped training. He was simply allowed to fail on the merit of not being strong enough.

The Tournament of Power arc did the whole "Gohan is going to stop acrewing around" bit the best, I think. While the animation is terrible, I still buy Gohan's battle with Gokuu there as a big, final, "Gohan's not going to fuck around anymore by not training or losing his fighting sense" that Super Hero just winds up blowing. Toriyama should have taken after the anime more.

Agreed about the Tournament of Power arc. I choose to believe that somebody at Toei prompted the creation of a new transformation in Super Hero to finally fire that hanging plot point of Gohan aiming to achieve a higher level of power in a different way to Goku, as he mentioned in the anime version of the arc. Although we didn't see much of him in the manga version of the arc, the Moro arc carried on under the assumption that Gohan was still serious about training. And I suppose, similar to the situation with GT, Toyotaro concluded that the only way to keep Gohan down on the power scale was to continue buffing Goku and the threats he faces. Not the most satisfying solution, but maybe the most elegant one.

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I think Julie said it quite well that Toriyama perhaps limited himself to fairly one-note, stereotypical ideals of how his characters should act, rather than maintaining strict continuity with the original manga in every sense. For Vegeta, he largely overcame his issues towards Goku at the end of the Buu arc, but to Toriyama, Vegeta is always stuck as an insecure second-placer, and he seemed to prefer writing Vegeta in that kind of dynamic with Goku. For Gohan, Toriyama viewed him as a boring square - the stereotypical quarter-life-crisis Japanese workaholic. No matter how many times he learns his lesson about training harder, a dull scholar's life is all he'd ever amount to.

Yeah, having a glimpse at Beast during the Tournament of Power would have been interesting, but I feel like it kind of just goes to show the way that the anime's staff is tied. Nagamine, Nakamura or Tomioka could have had the idea for "this is what we want Gohan's arc to be," but if they're restricted by needing Toriyama's permission for a new form or a producer saying, "Gohan achieving a new form is going to outshine Ultra Instinct, so don't do it!" then they're kind of fucked. Super Hero's structure by its very nature requires more repeating of Gohan's arc, just to remind the child and family audiences seeing the film of what they might have missed in the anime, too.

It's all just really messy and it annoys me as more so a writer than just a fan.

[LoganForkHands73]

Yeah, having a glimpse at Beast during the Tournament of Power would have been interesting, but I feel like it kind of just goes to show the way that the anime's staff is tied. Nagamine, Nakamura or Tomioka could have had the idea for "this is what we want Gohan's arc to be," but if they're restricted by needing Toriyama's permission for a new form or a producer saying, "Gohan achieving a new form is going to outshine Ultra Instinct, so don't do it!" then they're kind of fucked. Super Hero's structure by its very nature requires more repeating of Gohan's arc, just to remind the child and family audiences seeing the film of what they might have missed in the anime, too.

Definitely felt like those guys wanted to push a cool idea of their own but it just wasn't gonna fly with the stifling creative structure they had to work under.

Really, so much of the anime Tournament of Power was the Toei writers making sensible extrapolations of how this story should unfold when they had so very little to work with (or otherwise having genre-mashing fun, like making Ribrianne and her crew Magical Girl parodies), but for however many years I've been on this forum, people have constantly tried to convince me that it's all shit and invalid because the more-Toriyama-approved manga version didn't follow the same path. Don't care what anyone says, the anime nailed the tone of the arc, which should feel very final and apocalyptic considering half the multiverse is at stake.

Gohan's storyline almost wrote itself, and it was good. Of course this is the conflict that finally pushes him out of retirement, because he literally has everything on the line - his family, his whole universe - and he's possibly the only one with enough intelligence to fully grasp the enormity of that. In the manga, Gohan fights some jobbers and defeats Kefla with no build-up, but is otherwise such a non-entity that (IIRC) Toyotaro forgot to include him in the closing pages of the Universe 7 team flying back home.

I can accept that some characters' presence in that arc mattered more on a symbolic level than a practical one (i.e. Krillin being on the team convinces Android #17 to join because of Krillin's past good deeds). But Gohan absolutely deserved to be a major protagonist.

It's all just really messy and it annoys me as more so a writer than just a fan.

Speaking from my own experience, being a creative writer and a Dragon Ball fan sometimes feels like the shittiest combination, lmao.

[JulieYBM]

God, yeah. It's so annoying being a Dragon Ball fan—and a fan of the Tournament of Power in the anime—because so few Dragon Ball fans—or anime fans in general—respect the people to make anime—especially if that anime is adapting a manga to some degree. Nagamine and Tomioka specifically have both worked on original anime. They create stories from scratch, they can and should be trusted and respected by executives and fans. That the Tournament of Power is as good as it is despite facing so many challenges is a testament to everyone who worked on it, especially its leadership.

But yeah, being a creative and liking Dragon Ball at the same time is a tough combination to manage lol

[90sDBZ]

For all of Super's flaws, the way it handled Gohan's return to fighting in the ToP was really well done.

The fact that Super Hero undid all that development for the hell of it really rubbed me the wrong way. It just makes it hard to take the character seriously.

Him being completely absent in Daima didn't surprise me much. Given it takes place prior to Super (which isn't canon anyway) I guess it makes sense for him to not be involved.

[SupremeKai25]

I think Toriyama's apathy - bordering on antipathy - for Gohan boils down to his perception as a boring, static character, hence deeming him unfit for the protagonist role way back in the Buu arc. Gohan is not interested in fighting or adventures, so unless he is literally dragged along or forced into action somehow, there's not much that can be done with him.

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

[WittyUsername]

It never even occurred to me that Toriyama probably wasn’t fond of Gohan, but it makes perfect sense when you take everything into account.

[Zephyr]

The way Gohan has been handled in the revival era is very funny to me.

[Majin Buu]

It feels like choosing beggars to argue that Gohan is in any way underexposed in modern Dragon Ball after he and Piccolo got an entire movie in the spotlight. He got his long-awaited "big win" over a main antagonist, a shiny new transformation, and the promise of continued relevance in future projects. But it's common knowledge that Gohan was not part of Toriyama's original story outline for Super Hero, which is in hindsight quite evident.

Beyond the repeating cycle of Gohan neglecting his training and having to regain his fighting instinct which we'd seen time and again, Gohan doesn't get anything close to a real character arc. If anything, Toriyama seemed to go out of his way to portray Gohan as negatively as possible, maybe even more so than his father often is. On top of his usual complacency, Gohan is portrayed as selfish, neglectful of Pan, and comically oblivious to everything going on. You're basically rooting for Piccolo to slap some sense back into him the entire time he's oversharing about his ant hyperfixation.

All that is to say that Toriyama agreed to include Gohan, and even threw him some bones, but it felt... almost begrudging.

Considering how much Super Hero reads as a love letter to Piccolo- Toriyama's stated favorite character, especially after learning that Gohan wasn't originally in the story at all; I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama was fine with Gohan being shoehorned into it only because as Piccolo's student, having him save the day (and doing so with Piccolo's signature move to boot) serves as yet another way to make Piccolo look good.

That being said, I didn't miss Gohan in Daima and don't really care that he's more of a glorified supporting character in Super Hero than the co-lead he was advertised as. I like Gohan, but he's never been what makes or breaks Dragon Ball for me.

[LoganForkHands73]

Considering how much Super Hero reads as a love letter to Piccolo- Toriyama's stated favorite character, especially after learning that Gohan wasn't originally in the story at all; I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama was fine with Gohan being shoehorned into it only because as Piccolo's student, having him save the day (and doing so with Piccolo's signature move to boot) serves as yet another way to make Piccolo look good.

That being said, I didn't miss Gohan in Daima and don't really care that he's more of a glorified supporting character in Super Hero than the co-lead he was advertised as. I like Gohan, but he's never been what makes or breaks Dragon Ball for me.

Exactly, everything that happens serves to make Piccolo look better and more level-headed. I also accept that Gohan is now a neat "bonus" character, no longer a main-eventer, but appreciated when he makes a contribution.

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

It's a running gag that while Vegeta may respect Kakarot for his strength and endless drive for improvement, that doesn't mean he particularly likes him as a person.

[BernardoCairo]

If he had nothing to add to the story, I'm glad he didn't show up. I would have preferred to have Piccolo as the third wheel, but even he didn't do much and could have been cut as well.
Toriyama, in general, stopped writing these characters 30 years ago. I'm pretty sure he was just having fun coming up with concepts for Daima and didn't think of anything worthwhile for Gohan.

[tonysoprano300]

I think Toriyama's apathy - bordering on antipathy - for Gohan boils down to his perception as a boring, static character, hence deeming him unfit for the protagonist role way back in the Buu arc. Gohan is not interested in fighting or adventures, so unless he is literally dragged along or forced into action somehow, there's not much that can be done with him.

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

[SupremeKai25]

I question if Toriyama really cares that much about making sure character actions always align with their established development up until that point, Vegeta in Super for example, still harbours a certain amount of animosity towards Goku. This was demonstrated in the Goku black arc where he refused to do fusion and constantly remarked how much he likes beating on Black because he has Goku's face. This is supposed to take place after his supposed redemption in the Majin Boo arc, and I'm not saying he's exactly the same but the hatred of Goku is supposed to have been dealt with.

I thought it was pretty obvious he was being ironic? Not everything has to be taken literally. Why can't Super ever have some light-hearted moments of comedy, like Vegeta making fun of Black for having Goku's face, without it getting over-analysed?

People online take Dragon Ball way, way too seriously.

Plus, are just ignoring when Vegeta pummelled Black for stealing Goku's body and showed his deep respect for his friend-rival?

He refused to do fusion and was only agreed after Trunks told him about the death of Future Bulma at the hands of Black. I don't think we can just ignore that part

That's also not the only point you brought up, but fine, I'll accept the moving goalpost.