Back when it was about “straight hands” and “Pure Martial Arts”

[goku the krump dancer]

So as the topic title says, there’s this notion that has ballooned on the interwebs over the last decade and some change that Dragon Ball’s fight sorta devolved from mildly fantastical martial arts to gloried paint balling with laser beams or as most like to write in various comment sections across YouTube and social media whenever there’s a clip of “Pre Namek” Dragon Ball “man this was back when it was just straight hands and now they ruined it”.

When I first started seeing these remarks being made I initially was confused but sorta just wrote it off, then I saw it more and more gradually and thought to myself “I really gotta look into this to see if there’s some merit” and low and behold I think this particular notion is INSANELY over blown! While yes the fights became more fantastical as the narrative stakes increased but the only real offenders that I can find where it literally was “laser tag” choreography until *insert next phase of the fight/story was

1. The obvious offender of Goku vs Super 17
2. Goku vs Base 13 after he goes Super Saiyan
And 3. Maybe you can say some to the later half of SS4 Goku and Vegeta vs Super One Star Shenron where it was just repeat frames over and over.

That’s literally three fights in the ENTIRE franchise where energy blasts dominate the battle in what can be deemed a boring fashion. Maybe I'm thinking too deeply into this but what’re you guys’ thoughts on this “stereotype” I guess you can call it on the post Saiyan arc fights in Dragon Ball?

Is it hyperbole or is there some legit merit to the criticism?

[MasenkoHA]

I think it’s like when people hyper focus on Dragon Ball 86 being “all about adventure “ and not just “who is stronger” even though that only describes the first arc and Red Ribbon. And if you count Baba’s tournament as the end of the Red Ribbon arc and Daimao and Ma Junior as one arc that means every arc in pre-Saiyan Dragon Ball ends in a martial arts tournament to determine who is the strongest, except the literal first arc. It’s a weird paradoxical dismissal and glorification of pre-Z Dragon Ball.

Ki blast definitely became more common later down the road but it happened all the way back in the Tenshinhan arc not the Freeza arc. Like you said the hand to hand combat stuff remained a big part of Dragon Ball all the way to the end.

[Hellspawn28]

The 22nd Tenkachi Budokai, Piccolo Daimao, and the 23rd Tenkachi Budokai are not much different than what we would later see in Z. So I don't get why act like Raditz showing up somehow changed the overall tone of the show when it was just another chapter in the manga.

[JulieYBM]

Heck, the Red Ribbon Army arc is very little more than just Gokuu traveling from location-to-location to mostly just fight A Guy. The anime does quite a bit of heavy lifting to make the Red Ribbon Army really cool, though.

[jjgp1112]

It's really only Toei that was prone to beam spam. While the fighting definitely got a bit less creative and ultimately came down to who had the bigger blast in the end, all of the fghts still had quite a bit of hand to hand combat; and I mean, the sheer weirdness of much of Buu (and Gotenks') offense is up there with anything pre-Z.

Cipher pointed it out on Twitter first so it's not an original observation I'm making, but I think the Android saga was when the combat in Toriyama's Dragon Ball was at its blandest...but even then, it had the most actual fight strategy implemented into the storyline out of any of the arcs, too, with Ki - the very thing people complain DBZ leaned on too much - and its consumption playing pivotal roles in much of the fights.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The anime does quite a bit of heavy lifting to make the Red Ribbon Army really cool, though.

I know this isn't the most popular of opinions, but the anime was an improvement over the manga in general, not just that one arc. Besides things like movement, voice acting, and music, the anime actually took time to let things breath, while the manga was just rushing through everything.

[Koitsukai]

I agree it's Toei the one that usually is behind beam spamming. Most of the examples are from GT and the Z movies, the most gruesome, at least. And, it's Toei who extends the fights although in Z it wasn't really with a lot of pew-pew non-sense like they did in GT(instead of the fight vs Ih Shenron, the final episode vs Ohzaru Vegeta Baby comes to mind).

In Toei's Z, most fights had a lot of extra punching. In GT, punching seems to be thrown out the window to make room for just beam spamming.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

In GT, punching seems to be thrown out the window to make room for just beam spamming.

That was either due to a reduced budget, or the team not being that good with fight choreography. Z, even during the Buu arc when power levels were off the charts, never abandoned hand to hand combat, with Ssj2 Goku's fight being one of the better examples of this, as was his earlier fight with Majin Vegeta.

[Koitsukai]

In GT, punching seems to be thrown out the window to make room for just beam spamming.

That was either due to a reduced budget, or the team not being that good with fight choreography. Z, even during the Buu arc when power levels were off the charts, never abandoned hand to hand combat, with Ssj2 Goku's fight being one of the better examples of this, as was his earlier fight with Majin Vegeta.

TOEI clearly struggled once Toriyama's fight template was gone.
Almost every fight ended up relying on boring blasts, at first it wasn't that obvious, but as soon as GT leaned to the Z side of things, it was all over the place.
We keep talking about Goku vs Super 17 but Rildo vs Gohan was like the stormtroopers vs Han Solo. Even Rildo's death was from a blast.

[JulieYBM]

Good action animation requires time to storyboard and animate—not to mention talent—so, I'm not really all that surprised that Dragon Ball GT has bad fights. It isn't because "Only Toriyama can do it" or whatever, the production just wasn't in a great place, similarly to Dragon Ball Super.

[BernardoCairo]

I know this isn't the most popular of opinions, but the anime was an improvement over the manga in general, not just that one arc. Besides things like movement, voice acting, and music, the anime actually took time to let things breath, while the manga was just rushing through everything.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I don’t think the anime necessarily improves on the manga. The original Dragon Ball series does have the best filler in the franchise, but much of it ends up distracting from the main story. For example, Goku running into the Pilaf gang right after starting his journey with Bulma and then fighting a pack of random wolves feels a bit out of place.
In the Red Ribbon Arc, I really enjoy the introduction with Colonel Silver and his air base. Still, it ultimately leads nowhere and drags on, while in the manga Goku advances through the army more quickly and with sharper focus.
That said, I love both versions of Jingle Village. It is one of my favorite Dragon Ball settings. The anime might go a little overboard with Android 8’s origin, but it is still a nice little addition.

[MasenkoHA]

I know this isn't the most popular of opinions, but the anime was an improvement over the manga in general, not just that one arc. Besides things like movement, voice acting, and music, the anime actually took time to let things breath, while the manga was just rushing through everything.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I don’t think the anime necessarily improves on the manga. The original Dragon Ball series does have the best filler in the franchise, but much of it ends up distracting from the main story. For example, Goku running into the Pilaf gang right after starting his journey with Bulma and then fighting a pack of random wolves feels a bit out of place.
In the Red Ribbon Arc, I really enjoy the introduction with Colonel Silver and his air base. Still, it ultimately leads nowhere and drags on, while in the manga Goku advances through the army more quickly and with sharper focus.
That said, I love both versions of Jingle Village. It is one of my favorite Dragon Ball settings. The anime might go a little overboard with Android 8’s origin, but it is still a nice little addition.

It’s give and take.

Obviously it was to the original anime’s advantage that it started a year after the manga so it’s filler mostly existed to expand on material, not desperately stall for time to keep the manga barely ahead. Some of the stuff works great like giving Colonel Violet a character ,setting up a nice punchline with Silver (make him look like a badass only for Goku to take him out without effort), turning the deus ex machina of the Super God Water into a quest, or integrating the Pilaf gang early so they don’t come out nowhere. Some of the stuff does not work like stretching the endgame of the first arc to four episodes when it could have been two episodes or adding more gross sex pest Roshi scenes or the boring Mountain God two-parter.


The faster pacing makes the comedic first arc more enjoyable than it’s animation, but the anime does a significantly better job at the Daimao arc which was clear growing pains for Toriyama on transitioning to that kind of storytelling but probably second nature to the writing staff at Toei.

[Yellow Flower King]

I know this isn't the most popular of opinions, but the anime was an improvement over the manga in general, not just that one arc. Besides things like movement, voice acting, and music, the anime actually took time to let things breath, while the manga was just rushing through everything.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I don’t think the anime necessarily improves on the manga. The original Dragon Ball series does have the best filler in the franchise, but much of it ends up distracting from the main story. For example, Goku running into the Pilaf gang right after starting his journey with Bulma and then fighting a pack of random wolves feels a bit out of place.
In the Red Ribbon Arc, I really enjoy the introduction with Colonel Silver and his air base. Still, it ultimately leads nowhere and drags on, while in the manga Goku advances through the army more quickly and with sharper focus.
That said, I love both versions of Jingle Village. It is one of my favorite Dragon Ball settings. The anime might go a little overboard with Android 8’s origin, but it is still a nice little addition.

It’s give and take.

Obviously it was to the original anime’s advantage that it started a year after the manga so it’s filler mostly existed to expand on material, not desperately stall for time to keep the manga barely ahead. Some of the stuff works great like giving Colonel Violet a character ,setting up a nice punchline with Silver (make him look like a badass only for Goku to take him out without effort), turning the deus ex machina of the Super God Water into a quest, or integrating the Pilaf gang early so they don’t come out nowhere. Some of the stuff does not work like stretching the endgame of the first arc to four episodes when it could have been two episodes or adding more gross sex pest Roshi scenes or the boring Mountain God two-parter.


The faster pacing makes the comedic first arc more enjoyable than it’s animation, but the anime does a significantly better job at the Daimao arc which was clear growing pains for Toriyama on transitioning to that kind of storytelling but probably second nature to the writing staff at Toei.

I heard people say the filler where the world simply goes to hell is much more believable in the anime than it is in the manga during the Piccolo arc. People turning to crime, crowds trying to evacuate, people getting crushed under a crush of people. And these scenes dont last whole episodes either, they are there only as long as the scene needs to for the audience at home to feel dread.

[jjgp1112]

I’ve mentioned this before, but I don’t think the anime necessarily improves on the manga. The original Dragon Ball series does have the best filler in the franchise, but much of it ends up distracting from the main story. For example, Goku running into the Pilaf gang right after starting his journey with Bulma and then fighting a pack of random wolves feels a bit out of place.
In the Red Ribbon Arc, I really enjoy the introduction with Colonel Silver and his air base. Still, it ultimately leads nowhere and drags on, while in the manga Goku advances through the army more quickly and with sharper focus.
That said, I love both versions of Jingle Village. It is one of my favorite Dragon Ball settings. The anime might go a little overboard with Android 8’s origin, but it is still a nice little addition.

It’s give and take.

Obviously it was to the original anime’s advantage that it started a year after the manga so it’s filler mostly existed to expand on material, not desperately stall for time to keep the manga barely ahead. Some of the stuff works great like giving Colonel Violet a character ,setting up a nice punchline with Silver (make him look like a badass only for Goku to take him out without effort), turning the deus ex machina of the Super God Water into a quest, or integrating the Pilaf gang early so they don’t come out nowhere. Some of the stuff does not work like stretching the endgame of the first arc to four episodes when it could have been two episodes or adding more gross sex pest Roshi scenes or the boring Mountain God two-parter.


The faster pacing makes the comedic first arc more enjoyable than it’s animation, but the anime does a significantly better job at the Daimao arc which was clear growing pains for Toriyama on transitioning to that kind of storytelling but probably second nature to the writing staff at Toei.

I heard people say the filler where the world simply goes to hell is much more believable in the anime than it is in the manga during the Piccolo arc. People turning to crime, crowds trying to evacuate, people getting crushed under a crush of people. And these scenes dont last whole episodes either, they are there only as long as the scene needs to for the audience at home to feel dread.

And Toriyama really screwed the pooch with Tien...made such a big deal out of him learning the Mufaba just for him to break the jar off screen and get one shotted? Having him try it, almost succeeding but getting screwed by the numbers, and being so drained of energy he couldn't fight anymore (but actually surviving!) was a much better scenario for him. And in general like you and Masenko said, even before the prisons being freed, the anime did a great job of instilling a sense of dread and escalation...it really felt like the show we all came to know for 100 episodes was crumblign apart.

[MasenkoHA]

It’s give and take.

Obviously it was to the original anime’s advantage that it started a year after the manga so it’s filler mostly existed to expand on material, not desperately stall for time to keep the manga barely ahead. Some of the stuff works great like giving Colonel Violet a character ,setting up a nice punchline with Silver (make him look like a badass only for Goku to take him out without effort), turning the deus ex machina of the Super God Water into a quest, or integrating the Pilaf gang early so they don’t come out nowhere. Some of the stuff does not work like stretching the endgame of the first arc to four episodes when it could have been two episodes or adding more gross sex pest Roshi scenes or the boring Mountain God two-parter.


The faster pacing makes the comedic first arc more enjoyable than it’s animation, but the anime does a significantly better job at the Daimao arc which was clear growing pains for Toriyama on transitioning to that kind of storytelling but probably second nature to the writing staff at Toei.

I heard people say the filler where the world simply goes to hell is much more believable in the anime than it is in the manga during the Piccolo arc. People turning to crime, crowds trying to evacuate, people getting crushed under a crush of people. And these scenes dont last whole episodes either, they are there only as long as the scene needs to for the audience at home to feel dread.

And Toriyama really screwed the pooch with Tien...made such a big deal out of him learning the Mufaba just for him to break the jar off screen and get one shotted? Having him try it, almost succeeding but getting screwed by the numbers, and being so drained of energy he couldn't fight anymore (but actually surviving!) was a much better scenario for him. And in general like you and Masenko said, even before the prisons being freed, the anime did a great job of instilling a sense of dread and escalation...it really felt like the show we all came to know for 100 episodes was crumblign apart.

Plus the whole begging for forgiveness of the man he maimed exclusive to the anime.

The Daimao arc in the anime actually felt like the completion of Tenshinhan’s character arc . In the manga you can feel Toriyama already getting bored with him after the “arrogant student from rival school realizes his master was wrong” idea and just keeping him around as a measuring stick for how much stronger Goku was after drinking the Super God Water.

[JulieYBM]

I heard people say the filler where the world simply goes to hell is much more believable in the anime than it is in the manga during the Piccolo arc. People turning to crime, crowds trying to evacuate, people getting crushed under a crush of people. And these scenes dont last whole episodes either, they are there only as long as the scene needs to for the audience at home to feel dread.

And Toriyama really screwed the pooch with Tien...made such a big deal out of him learning the Mufaba just for him to break the jar off screen and get one shotted? Having him try it, almost succeeding but getting screwed by the numbers, and being so drained of energy he couldn't fight anymore (but actually surviving!) was a much better scenario for him. And in general like you and Masenko said, even before the prisons being freed, the anime did a great job of instilling a sense of dread and escalation...it really felt like the show we all came to know for 100 episodes was crumblign apart.

Plus the whole begging for forgiveness of the man he maimed exclusive to the anime.

The Daimao arc in the anime actually felt like the completion of Tenshinhan’s character arc . In the manga you can feel Toriyama already getting bored with him after the “arrogant student from rival school realizes his master was wrong” idea and just keeping him around as a measuring stick for how much stronger Goku was after drinking the Super God Water.

This is why I'm such an advocate for letting the production team have flexibility to change and improve the story with their own original ideas. People can sing the praises of Toriyama all day long, but at the end of the day, he can still be outdone by other experienced storytellers—especially those with more experience him. The heavier atmosphere brought on by changes made in the anime adaption are just plain cool and really give those events a lot of weight and I wish they had gone further and just outright changes scenes directly adapting the comic.

[Jord]

1. The obvious offender of Goku vs Super 17

Super 17 was actually beaten due to a physical attack (Dragon Fist) and the whole fight made a point on how ki blasts were not effective at all until the physical attack bursting through him.

[Soppa Saia People]

I think it’s like when people hyper focus on Dragon Ball 86 being “all about adventure “ and not just “who is stronger” even though that only describes the first arc and Red Ribbon. And if you count Baba’s tournament as the end of the Red Ribbon arc and Daimao and Ma Junior as one arc that means every arc in pre-Saiyan Dragon Ball ends in a martial arts tournament to determine who is the strongest, except the literal first arc. It’s a weird paradoxical dismissal and glorification of pre-Z Dragon Ball.

Ki blast definitely became more common later down the road but it happened all the way back in the Tenshinhan arc not the Freeza arc. Like you said the hand to hand combat stuff remained a big part of Dragon Ball all the way to the end.

I've been re-reading the first arc (and really just the whole of the Dragon Ball manga hich is so excited, this has really been the first time in my life since I first got into the series where it's super fresh to me), and well yes it's obviously not as based around fighting and martial arts as later Dragon Ball, it's still definitely like a martial arts adventure story. Like it has a ton of the tropes, iconography, and focus of classic kung-fu stories (at least from what I know), and fighting is more or less still the main driver of the plot. I agree that there was definitely this kind of dressing up of early Dragon Ball as kind of non fighting focused, more like adventurous (both like in universe and out), and fluffy series, which isn't really true. I used to be kind of victim of doing that, and in some aspects, I do think a lot of the occasional slice of life, or light character moments, occasionally go under appreciated, but I would occasionally talk about it like it was an actual anime slice of life comedy series lol.

[GokuHater]

Personally I think this isn't just the case of ki blasts as in reality there seldom are fights where the beams are more importqnt than hand to hand combat.

For me it seems more like the older fights in the manga seemed somehow more realistic and thus make people think about martiał arts.
Off course this objectively isn't the case as early DB is as much fantastical as Buu Saga but I always have that feeling that the earlier portion of the story MAKES YOU THINK the battles are more down to earth and realistic.

I mean Goku punching weaker foes, Roshi's training, all the Tenkaichi Budokais seem more grounded for the reader than firing Kamehamehas at the ocean, teleportation or using ki blasts like a Kalasznikov.

[BernardoCairo]

The faster pacing makes the comedic first arc more enjoyable than it’s animation

I agree. I don't think it makes sense to introduce Pilaf so early in the story. I think it creates a false expectation that he'll be a major villain, when that's not the case. Ultimately, it takes away from the joke a bit.
That said, the changes can actually be pretty fun for longtime manga readers. I lost count of how many times I caught myself thinking “WTF?” while watching the anime, not because it was bad, but because it was so different or just plain weird. One scene that always sticks with me is the pinball segment in Pilaf’s castle. It drags on a bit, sure, but it’s hilarious. Honestly, it feels like something straight out of Mario Kart or something.