Torishima gives his opinion on Dragon Ball Daima and says he would make a Vegeta story

[PhantomSaiyan]

Surprised I haven't seen this posted here yet

Tweets : https://x.com/sandman_AP/status/1967527653222879506
https://x.com/BorutoRiden/status/1967580036917305493

Full video: https://www.youtube.com/live/7DaeJ3TFMFM

For those who don't have Twitter, he pretty much says that it would be better to do a Vegeta story.

People are saying he called Daima trash, "Daima nanka kuso anime" but knowing how the fanbase can blow things up somtimes, I wouldn't be surprised if his actual comment was a bit more lenient.
But knowing Torishima, I also wouldn't be surprised if he actually said that

Anyone who knows japanese, I'd be grateful to get the truth on this

[Yellow Flower King]

Surprised I haven't seen this posted here yet

Tweets : https://x.com/sandman_AP/status/1967527653222879506
https://x.com/BorutoRiden/status/1967580036917305493

Full video: https://www.youtube.com/live/7DaeJ3TFMFM

For those who don't have Twitter, he pretty much says that it would be better to do a Vegeta story.

People are saying he called Daima trash, "Daima nanka kuso anime" but knowing how the fanbase can blow things up somtimes, I wouldn't be surprised if his actual comment was a bit more lenient.
But knowing Torishima, I also wouldn't be surprised if he actually said that

Anyone who knows japanese, I'd be grateful to get the truth on this

To be honest, while Torishima isnt always right he was ALWAYS a force that could not only curtail Toriyama's excesses but also simply be willing to bounce ideas off each other. I wonder what a Torishima scrutinized but written by Toriyama Daima anime would be like.

[FortuneSSJ]

Sandman is japanese and doesn't seem to be a clickbait type. I trust his translation.

I was about to post it, but I don't like how he has been negative about Dragon Ball these days. He lost me when he said some years ago that there's nothing to learn from Dragon Ball. That's a lie. It's a simple story, but there are things to learn from it.

Some months ago there was a panel where he scold Toyotaro in front of the audience about how to draw a manga. I found that unecessary, even though Toyotaro is nowhere near Toriyama level when it comes to composition. The amout of useless reaction shots he draws is painful. However I wouldn't embarrass him like that. You can tell those things in private.

"Dragon Ball Daima is trash" I find that harsh words to all the staff who worked hard on it. Visually is far above any other tv series we had. And even though I wasn't satisfied about the writing part, and yes Toriyama is to blame here, I wouldn't change it for a Vegeta series.

As for Dragon Ball Super, it was great. It's the only one that comes close to DBZ to me. How the world gathered to watch ToP was a phenomenon that no other series can pull off.

Yesterday I felt nostalgic hearing the recap and preview soundtrack. I would give anything to have the same production quality than Daima.

The show was a success despite all the production problems. I still see new edits from Goku vs Jiren popping up. Hopefully one day comes back, because I'm sure Goku vs Moro will break the internet and that arc may become a fan favourite.

Shueisha is just being stupid.

[BernardoCairo]

I was about to post it, but I don't like how he has been negative about Dragon Ball these days. He lost me when he said some years ago that there's nothing to learn from Dragon Ball. That's a lie. It's a simple story, but there are things to learn from it.

Yeah, that very specific statement almost made me think he was functionally illiterate or something, even though I know he's a very intelligent man and a good professional. But, I mean, if you read Dragon Ball, you understand the meaning behind the story and even interpret it in many ways that are unique to your experience.

A story about Vegeta sounds cool, and he could definitely carry an anime on his own. But how do you do that if Goku is right there with him? Maybe explore his youth? We know a lot about Goku's life, but not about Vegets's.

[JulieYBM]

Torishima was never a fan of shounen comics, so I think his comments make sense, especially when you consider how hard Toriyama tries to make sure that the story isn't very themes-heavy. I'm sure he was speaking in general terms with that comment, but alas, here we are.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The way I always interpreted his "Dragon Ball has no morals or lessons to be learned" discourse is more about how he and Toriyama worked on it, which is separate from the end result

What I mean is that they clearly didn't intentionally make the story thinking about what lessons the reader should learn, they just wanted to make it fun and memorable, and that was their approach.
Torishima cited Tom and Jerry for example as an inspiration.

That doesn't mean that the reader can't possibly see any meaning in it, because as we know, a piece of art becomes bigger than its creator once it's out there into the world. I think anything a person writes will inherently have some sort of lesson to be learned from it because it's we, the readers who make that happen, who extrapolate meaning, regardless of authorial intent.

They can try their best to put their own lessons and ideas into their story (or not, like Torishima says), but ultimately, what they write will have a life of its own

[BernardoCairo]

I understand what you mean to some extent, but Kuririn and Goku's training with Muten Roshi, their growth as martial artists and individuals under the Turtle School's philosophy, and Vegeta's subsequent realization that this is what makes Goku special are all present in the manga itself. You don't have to be a genius to understand the underlying themes of camaraderie, self-improvement, and how these two intertwine. It's a gag-action manga, of course. It's not meant to be "deep". But you can tell there's something in this story that resonates with people, and that the guys who worked on it dedicated themselves wholeheartedly to delivering something special.
As you said, we can draw lessons from the manga. But I believe there's more to it than that. Besides, I don't think every story should be concerned with "teaching a lesson" (although I think Dragon Ball does that to some extent). The important thing is to convey a message, and I feel the original work does that well.

[JulieYBM]

I imagine that Torishima is speaking towards a broader, overall message to Dragon Ball. There might be small pieces throughout the story that hold meaning, but as an overall work, it isn't written and constructed to amount to anything in the way most other manga do, whether in JUMP (NARUTO) or not.

[BernardoCairo]

I believe there's a general message that permeates the entire story, particularly in how Goku always strives to be better and how this, in turn, improves those around him as well. When reading the manga, it becomes clear that it is a story with a beginning, middle and end. Definitely more impactful for me than Naruto, for example. Although there are other more complex works, of course.

[Mr Baggins]

Torishima, especially nowadays, is closer to a persona than a real person. It's a role that he intentionally plays up and exaggerates for comedic effect; his whole schtick is he's the cynical retired editor that hates everything, the real life Dr. Mashirito. Just observe the tone/context here – he and others were laughing when he said "Daima sucked, do a Vegeta story instead", facetiously addressing some of the staff that worked on Daima. Even his whole stint with Toyotaro and his oneshot two months ago was a heavily scripted and rehearsed event that panned out in front of an audience.

There is genuine insight to some of what he says when he's actually trying to offer it, but nobody should take him more seriously than his own colleagues. Least of all in this case, a podcast where he's just messing with said colleagues.

And for the record, since it's being brought up: Toriyama could have written in his sleep and still do a better job at thematic storytelling than fucking Masashi Kishimoto.

[Koitsukai]

There are a lot of messages, on purpose or not, in DB that are great life lessons. Goku being so charming and carefree, not dwelling on things, and seeing the good in everybody, giving them second chances, ends up forming a posse out of his fucking enemies.

One thing is to say it isn’t intentional, it's another to say it's not there at all, that it's just pew-pew, planet is on fire, pew-pew.

[JulieYBM]

I used NARUTO as an example because I don't read enough shounen comics anymore to have any other example on hand. I'm not a child, most of the media I engage with is for adults, sorry.

Anyway, for a big ol' melodramatic series about generational trauma and being bisexual, NARUTO is a series that actually seems interested in saying something. Dragon Ball tended to avoid being upfront about saying anything or having any real emotion at all. That's the extent to which I was speaking to.

[Yuji]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

I wouldn't call Dragon Ball emotionally subtle so much as emotionally uncomfortable, but I think that's just a greater issue with how Toriyama is as a person, going by his interviews.

[Cipher]

His comments are harsh--nothing lost in translation--but people need to understand that in addition to being a savvy editor, Torishima has always been a bit of a provocateur with a Gordon Ramsay-like persona, and that's increased in his twilight years.

Essentially what Mr Baggins said.

[Yellow Flower King]

To be fair to Torishima, at least he didnt say "Hahaha Dragon Ball is there to promote discrimination!" At least when General Blue was... terrible he isnt meant to be a statement on homosexuality.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

In recent years, I've come to find that Dragon Ball characters are bizarrely more realistic than most other works in its demographic in large part due to Toriyama's "Fuck it" approach.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I read the English translation of Torishima's book and he seems to be a guy that doesn't mince words and is very blunt in his criticisms. So it wouldn't be shocking if his criticism was that harsh even if he didn't intend it to be. Keep in mind that Toriyama made him into a supervillain in Dr. Slump, which even if it was good natured ribbing isn't the kind of thing you do to your boss unless they're a bit overbearing.
Torishima apparently didn't like Attack on Titan because he felt that the story was too complex for a shonen magazine's target audience of preteen boys. He's a very opinionated guy and doesn't too worried about other people's opinions of him.

[M16U3L2015]

Torishima apparently didn't like Attack on Titan because he felt that the story was too complex for a shonen magazine's target audience of preteen boys.

I wonder what he thinks of Chainsaw Man, the first part of which was published in Weekly Shonen Jump and certainly its content is not very appropriate for pre-teens.

[Yuji]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

In recent years, I've come to find that Dragon Ball characters are bizarrely more realistic than most other works in its demographic in large part due to Toriyama's "Fuck it" approach.

I agree. Fans are naturally going to be more drawn to the overt WWE-style character arcs (Vegeta), but you can find a lot to relate to even in subdued character arcs like Goku's.