Ssj4 Vs. Ssj4: Did GT or Daima do it Better ?

[The Dark Knight]

In your opinion, which series had the better Ssj4, GT or Daima ?

Spoiler:

For me personally, Ssj4's introduction in Daima nearly ruined the entire series for me. In GT, the form was tied directly to Goku's character development and the origins of the Saiyans, while in Daima, it was a simple hand out that had nothing to do with either Goku or the Saiyans. Goku's ascension to the form in GT was a major highlight of the entire franchise. Even Vegeta's transformation was tied to his character development from the Buu arc. Daima had many episodes where nothing happened, so why not use that time to build up and develop Ssj4 ?

What about the design ? GT also has a clear advantage here, for the simple fact that colors are more balanced. In Daima, we have red hair, red body fur, and orange pants with no belt for some reason; it's just too much of the same shade. In GT, we have black hair, red body fur, a blue belt, and yellow pants; far more balanced and easy on the eyes. I'm also not a fan of the fur not covering Goku's arms in Daima, as it makes the form look incomplete. It basically suffered from the same issue other modern designs suffered from: it was too simple for its own good.

Finally, the fights. Despite only having two fights, Daima is the clear and undeniable winner here. The way Goku moved like a monkey, the impacts of the hits, and that final Kamehameha were nothing short of amazing. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that the two Ssj4 fights in Daima were the absolute best this series has ever produced. GT on the other hand didn't have a single memorable fight with Ssj4, with most of them being very generic and bland. The Super #17 fight in particular was a major low point due to the lack of hand to hand combat.

I grew up with GT, so maybe I'm just biased towards it, so what do you think ? Did GT really have the better Ssj4, or am I missing something ?

[JulieYBM]

They both look neat, but I can't really say either is handled very well because neither series is good. One happens with no build up and the other is based on a female character crying, rather than her being the one to achieve power and fight for herself.

I kind of just shrug my shoulders at the idea.

[Peach]

GT did it better.

It looks better, the idea of a golden great ape is conceptually brilliant and raised the stakes, and it ties back to Goku's heritage. I also love that love for his granddaughter ran so deep that he could find his humanity as a beast. GT is a classic.

Daima's version looks odd with the fur at the wrists and the hair matching the fur. I also don't like that it's linked to magic and not Saiyan heritage.

[90sDBZ]

GT for sure.

Aside from it just looking better in GT (although I don't hate the Daima version), it also had a proper buildup and explanation storywise.

Daima just literally hands him the form out of nowhere. This has become a trend with modern DB, with both Blue and Beast being other examples. Gone are the days when a new form feels earned.

SSG was probably the last time a new form was given the appropriate buildup.

UI is sort of weird, because it does make sense given Goku's character and past training with Korin and Popo. The problem is that Super itself doesn't do all that much to foreshadow the form. There were occasional lines from Whis that sort of alluded to it, but it was never really at the forefront prior to the ToP were Goku conveniently taps into it.

There was no real sense of Goku taking Whis's lessons to heart and progressing over time.

[Koitsukai]

When it comes to the fights, Daima wins. I guess, even the Bardock the Super Saiyan OVA beats GT in that regard. It wasn't that great, really, it was quite repetitive and got old soon enough, but it was beautiful nevertheless. That KHH was more spectacular than the KHHx10, an attack that on its introduction had a delayed effect. Sigh.

Daima's design grew on me by now. But I prefer the more balanced black hair-red fur of GT. The huge arms and lack of hair are a good call for me, he is an ape and moves like one. Also, not having magical clothes is nice.
I'd say it's a tie with GT having the edge.

How it was achieved: Daima loses greatly. I don't think we've seen such a whimsical excuse for a transformation, it's right there with Vegeta coming to the battleground with a machine and getting SS4 pulled right out of his ass.
On the other hand, GT did a great job with the usage of the lore and the obstacles to get that form. The tail is back, it fails to do anything on its own, it's kind of a red herring, and then bam: a golden ape. It's just too good, the concept, the execution, the small steps towards the final form. It's a form almost unachievable because it's difficult to keep the tail as a saiyan keeps meeting stronger foes, the golden ape it's the perfect secret.

Conclusion: Daima wins by a hair, it did more with it, even though it came out of nowhere, literally by the magical hand of an ancient alien demon wizard. It sucks how it came to be but it wasn't de-serviced in combat like GT's SS4.

The problem is that Super itself doesn't do all that much to foreshadow the form. There were occasional lines from Whis that sort of alluded to it, but it was never really at the forefront prior to the ToP were Goku conveniently taps into it.

There was no real sense of Goku taking Whis's lessons to heart and progressing over time.

Don't want to derail the thread, but this isn't true, at least not for the anime. There was an episode where Goku was trying to attune his senses, in order to master the concept of UI, in preparation for the ToP. He even hires Hit to kill him to force himself to master the technique.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I wondered for a long time if my preference for GT's version was only nostalgia based or not.

But I don't think that's the case. I have a lot of problems with GT, but ultimately, like most people, I absolutely love og ssj4. The way it was achieved (ignoring the supreme kais extracting Goku's tail with fucking pliers lol), golden oozaru, the moment of the transformation is just straight up epic.

The design is also amazing, I always loved the contrast between the black hair, red-pinkish fur, and yellow pants, I find it so aesthetically pleasing.

I also enjoy Daima's take on it with the huge arms and more monkey like shape, but ultimately, I can't help the fact that I prefer the first iteration.

As others have already said, the main thing Daima did better with ssj4 is the fight itself, it got a good showcase with amazing animation (kid ssj4 was also a good touch that I enjoyed), I just wish the antagonist was more.. Appropriate and charismatic. He and Goku did not exchange a single word of dialogue and I hate that.

[The Dark Knight]

Vegeta coming to the battleground with a machine and getting SS4 pulled right out of his ass.

The machine just turned him into a regular Ozaru, which is something he's capable of doing with a tail and a moon present. Vegeta didn't have time to get his tail pulled out, so the machine just helped him bypass that requirement. Turning into a Ssj4 requires the regular Ozaru to be able to transform into a Golden Ozaru, then regain consciousness of who they are in order to trigger the Ssj4 transformation. Both of these steps had nothing to do with Bulma's machine. Whenever I read that Vegeta cheated to get Ssj4, I can't help but question if there's another version of the show that I didn't see, because that's not what happened at all. There was also the episode in which Vegeta was reflecting on his life up to that point, desiring the form not to catch up to Goku, but to test his own limits as a warrior. Vegeta reaching Ssj4 was what his #1 speech from the Buu arc was building up to; he was finally Goku's equal as a result of giving up his old ways.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Vegeta coming to the battleground with a machine and getting SS4 pulled right out of his ass.

The machine just turned him into a regular Ozaru, which is something he's capable of doing with a tail and a moon present. Vegeta didn't have time to get his tail pulled out, so the machine just helped him bypass that requirement. Turning into a Ssj4 requires the regular Ozaru to be able to transform into a Golden Ozaru, then regain consciousness of who they are in order to trigger the Ssj4 transformation. Both of these steps had nothing to do with Bulma's machine. Whenever I read that Vegeta cheated to get Ssj4, I can't help but question if there's another version of the show that I didn't see, because that's not what happened at all. There was also the episode in which Vegeta was reflecting on his life up to that point, desiring the form not to catch up to Goku, but to test his own limits as a warrior. Vegeta reaching Ssj4 was what his #1 speech from the Buu arc was building up to; he was finally Goku's equal as a result of giving up his old ways.

Agreed, it's such a weird fanbase misconception. If Vegeta "cheated" then Goku also cheated by getting his tailed pulled out with pliers lol really weird double standard people have with this one.

If anything, Vegeta outperformed Goku because he was able to not lose his sense of self in his Oozaru form (even though he pranked everyone for the lols) while Goku needed help from Pan

[super michael]

They both look neat, but I can't really say either is handled very well because neither series is good. One happens with no build up and the other is based on a female character crying, rather than her being the one to achieve power and fight for herself.

I kind of just shrug my shoulders at the idea.

I don't think you are giving Pan enough credit, she was brave enough to go up to Goku while berserk and tried to get him to remember who he was. It wasn't Pan crying that helped Goku regain control, it was the photo that Pan had of them at the beach and her talking to Goku.
Goku while out of control she could have killed Pan, but that didn't make Pan quit in trying to help Goku. That would make Pan brave and selfless.

Pan did a lot more compared to other characters. When Goku turned into his Oozaru form, the others didn't try to get Goku to regain control of himself, they simply cut his tail or blew up the moon.
Lets not forget that Pan didn't know Saiyans could turn into their Oozaru form, so I doubt Pan knows that Saiyans can control their Oozaru form.



I prefer how SSJ4 looks and how it was gained in GT. SSJ4 was gained by gaining control of their Oozaru form while in SSJ, which in Goku case it was a struggle for him. Design wise I also prefers how GT SSJ4 looks compared to Daima SSJ4.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

GT for the reasons stated above. Without the right buildup and payoffs transformations, like many in modern Dragon Ball, just feel shallow.

I don't think you are giving Pan enough credit, she was brave enough to go up to Goku while berserk and tried to get him to remember who he was. It wasn't Pan crying that helped Goku regain control, it was the photo that Pan had of them at the beach and her talking to Goku.
Goku while out of control she could have killed Pan, but that didn't make Pan quit in trying to help Goku. That would make Pan brave and selfless.

Pan did a lot more compared to other characters. When Goku turned into his Oozaru form, the others didn't try to get Goku to regain control of him, they simply cut his tail or blew up the moon.

And you got to watch Goku and Pan go on adventures in space before that, so there was time to get invested in their relationship, which made the moment she showed the photograph that much more impactful.

[JulieYBM]

I can't believe a woman is tired of female characters existing solely in roles to push forward narrative for male characters.

Edit: fixed typos, fuck my gay life

[super michael]

GT for the reasons stated above. Without the right buildup and payoffs transformations, like many in modern Dragon Ball, just feel shallow.

I don't think you are giving Pan enough credit, she was brave enough to go up to Goku while berserk and tried to get him to remember who he was. It wasn't Pan crying that helped Goku regain control, it was the photo that Pan had of them at the beach and her talking to Goku.
Goku while out of control she could have killed Pan, but that didn't make Pan quit in trying to help Goku. That would make Pan brave and selfless.

Pan did a lot more compared to other characters. When Goku turned into his Oozaru form, the others didn't try to get Goku to regain control of him, they simply cut his tail or blew up the moon.

And you got to watch Goku and Pan go on adventures in space before that, so there was time to get invested in their relationship, which made the moment she showed the photograph that much more impactful.

Yes exactly we got to see Goku, Pan and Trunks go on adventures in space. We got to see Pan grow and mature, she even became friends with Giru.

I can't believe a woman is tired of female characters existing solely in rolls to oush forward narrative for male characters.

Android 16 was able to help Gohan to understand when he should fight and kill and even helped him gain SSJ2, due to his speach and sacrifice. That doesn't diminish the selfless act that he did.

I don't know why you have trouble seeing the brave action that Pan did. She did the best action, just being there for Goku and trying to talk to him while out of control. She didn't run away and she didn't rely on violence.
I would say that is both mature and brave.


If the other characters tried to help Goku regain control instead of slicing his tail and blowing up the moon, maybe he would have gained controlled by the Pilaf Saga or 21st Martial Art Tournament.

[Kaboom]

I'm not gonna try to compare how each series "used" its version of Super Saiyan 4 in terms of fights and animation, because it's apples to oranges. GT debuted Real SS4 halfway through what was basically a 64-episode extension of a continuous 400+ episode series run, then brought it back multiple times before the end. Whereas Daima, a brand-new fatigue-free project, debuted Fake SS4 for the final 3 episodes of its mere 20-episode run. Very different circumstances for each one.

Otherwise, the OG from GT obviously outshines the new bootleg version from Daima in both visual design and story/meaning. Other folks have already beaten me to pointing out how much better the form's introduction is in GT, with the Golden Ape process and Pan helping Goku regain control and all that. I wish there'd somehow been a little more buildup to it during the first half of GT, but oh well. It still soundly trounces Fake SS4 being just magically zapped into existence from nothing.

And of course design-wise, the high-contrast red-and-black balance (for Goku anyway) has always made Real SS4 a very striking and unique form, and the typically lazy uniformly-recolored Daima version can't hope to compare. The bulky arms don't help either, and combined with the colors it just makes it look like Goku got stuck halfway between Gold Ape and a proper, complete, fully-ascended Real SS4. I saw someone on Reddit describe it this way and I agree — Daima's SS4 looks like a parody of the real thing. Like something a western cartoon would come up with to "reference" DB without technically infringing on anything.

[The Dark Knight]

Although I agree with what Dragon Ball Ireland and super michael said about Pan, I also believe that JulieYBM has a point. What I think GT got right with Pan is that they took to time to invest in her relationship with Goku, which culminated in her playing a key role in him reaching the ultimate form a Saiyan can reach (before Super came along and started giving them out like candy). They also explored that relationship further by having her tag along during the hunt for the shadow dragons, showing different sides of her, such as her courage and willingness to die for the greater good. It would've been so much easier to just have GT be the Goku and Vegeta show like what Super did, but they didn't take that easy way out, they instead took the time to invest in a character who only got three episodes of screen time during the end of Z. With that all said, I think Pan was in desperate need of a moment where she took care of business, such as giving her Ssj against Oceanus Shenron and having her be the one to win that fight completely on her own. We had spent multiple arcs with her developing and learning from Goku; reaching Ssj would've been the perfect natural end point of her journey into becoming her own independent hero. They could've had Goku train Pan on the road to achieving the form like how Jiraya trained Naruto to use the Rasengan during the search for Tsunade; that could've been his condition for allowing her to tag along.

Daima's SS4 looks like a parody of the real thing. Like something a western cartoon would come up with to "reference" DB without technically infringing on anything.

This pretty much applies to all the new forms introduced since 2013. Yellow hair would result in a lawsuit, but the other colors are up for grabs.

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta coming to the battleground with a machine and getting SS4 pulled right out of his ass.

The machine just turned him into a regular Ozaru, which is something he's capable of doing with a tail and a moon present. Vegeta didn't have time to get his tail pulled out, so the machine just helped him bypass that requirement. Turning into a Ssj4 requires the regular Ozaru to be able to transform into a Golden Ozaru, then regain consciousness of who they are in order to trigger the Ssj4 transformation. Both of these steps had nothing to do with Bulma's machine. Whenever I read that Vegeta cheated to get Ssj4, I can't help but question if there's another version of the show that I didn't see, because that's not what happened at all. There was also the episode in which Vegeta was reflecting on his life up to that point, desiring the form not to catch up to Goku, but to test his own limits as a warrior. Vegeta reaching Ssj4 was what his #1 speech from the Buu arc was building up to; he was finally Goku's equal as a result of giving up his old ways.

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

So even if Vegeta deserves the power thematically, within GT’s logic it’s clear Goku works for it, while Vegeta gets a shortcut, which is why it feels unearned. Bulma did most of the heavy lifting.

[The Dark Knight]

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

There was no time to go look for someone to pull his tail out. With that said, I think it's something they should've done instead of the machine, but that doesn't change the fact that the transformation into a Golden ape then into Ssj4 had nothing to do with the machine. As for losing control, he never did before, which was an advantage he had over Goku. The emotional part was in a prior episode where he thinks back to how he gave up on his rivalry and wondered if it was worth it or not.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

So even if Vegeta deserves the power thematically, within GT’s logic it’s clear Goku works for it, while Vegeta gets a shortcut, which is why it feels unearned. Bulma did most of the heavy lifting.

DOUBLE STANDARD.
Both the pliers and the blutz waves are ways to get the tail back, and there isn't a single valid argument as to why one is more valid than the other, they serve the SAME EXACT purpose.

There is no fast tracking involved in Bulma's machine, the core process of "extract tail to unlock transformation" is the same because they BOTH use external means to achieve it. The fact that it disappears afterwards means nothing, the "biological requirement" argument is bs.

If Vegeta decided instead to call the Supreme Kais and asked "please pull my tail out" what would be the difference exactly? Would it be more "earned" even though the actual effort he has to put in is the EXACT SAME?

[JulieYBM]

I don't really see a problem with how Vegeta got Super Saiyan 4. It's messier and dirtier and that's more entertaining.

I do think it's lame that Blooma never found a way to turn herself into an Artificial Human, though. That would have been a cool way to involve her in the fighting and having a more overt arc.

[super michael]

Although I agree with what Dragon Ball Ireland and super michael said about Pan, I also believe that JulieYBM has a point. What I think GT got right with Pan is that they took to time to invest in her relationship with Goku, which culminated in her playing a key role in him reaching the ultimate form a Saiyan can reach (before Super came along and started giving them out like candy). They also explored that relationship further by having her tag along during the hunt for the shadow dragons, showing different sides of her, such as her courage and willingness to die for the greater good. It would've been so much easier to just have GT be the Goku and Vegeta show like what Super did, but they didn't take that easy way out, they instead took the time to invest in a character who only got three episodes of screen time during the end of Z. With that all said, I think Pan was in desperate need of a moment where she took care of business, such as giving her Ssj against Oceanus Shenron and having her be the one to win that fight completely on her own. We had spent multiple arcs with her developing and learning from Goku; reaching Ssj would've been the perfect natural end point of her journey into becoming her own independent hero. They could've had Goku train Pan on the road to achieving the form like how Jiraya trained Naruto to use the Rasengan during the search for Tsunade; that could've been his condition for allowing her to tag along.

Daima's SS4 looks like a parody of the real thing. Like something a western cartoon would come up with to "reference" DB without technically infringing on anything.

This pretty much applies to all the new forms introduced since 2013. Yellow hair would result in a lawsuit, but the other colors are up for grabs.

I do agree that Pan should have unlocked transformation, she should have gained it when the situation looked impossible like when her possessed family was attacking. Against Oceanus Shenron it would have been good for her to unlock SSJ or something else and used Kamehameha for the first time.

I am not against Pan gaining transformation and winning in her fights. Her being a independent hero and having the power needed would be a good thing.
I like your thinking of Goku teaching Pan like how Jiraiya taught Naruto, Jiraiya was like a father to Naruto.

Vegeta coming to the battleground with a machine and getting SS4 pulled right out of his ass.

The machine just turned him into a regular Ozaru, which is something he's capable of doing with a tail and a moon present. Vegeta didn't have time to get his tail pulled out, so the machine just helped him bypass that requirement. Turning into a Ssj4 requires the regular Ozaru to be able to transform into a Golden Ozaru, then regain consciousness of who they are in order to trigger the Ssj4 transformation. Both of these steps had nothing to do with Bulma's machine. Whenever I read that Vegeta cheated to get Ssj4, I can't help but question if there's another version of the show that I didn't see, because that's not what happened at all. There was also the episode in which Vegeta was reflecting on his life up to that point, desiring the form not to catch up to Goku, but to test his own limits as a warrior. Vegeta reaching Ssj4 was what his #1 speech from the Buu arc was building up to; he was finally Goku's equal as a result of giving up his old ways.

Goku earned the form through regrowing his tail with pliers, losing control as a GGA, and regaining his mind to trigger the transformation. Vegeta skips all of that. He doesn’t regrow his tail, fakes struggling for control, and doesn’t even face any emotional breaking point. Bulma’s machine bypasses the key biological requirement and fast-tracks him straight to SSJ4.

So even if Vegeta deserves the power thematically, within GT’s logic it’s clear Goku works for it, while Vegeta gets a shortcut, which is why it feels unearned. Bulma did most of the heavy lifting.

The reason why Vegeta didn't lose control of his Oozaru form in GT is because he mastered that form. In the Saiyan Saga Vegeta had 100% complete control of his form, unlike Goku and Gohan who didn't master their Oozaru form.

Both Goku and Vegeta transformed into their Oozaru form, then they both had to have control to evolve into their SSJ4 form. The only thing the Blutz Wave machine did was allow Vegeta to transform into his Oozaru, that isn't the reason why he didn't lose control of himself. Vegeta turned into his Golden Oozaru form and SSJ4 on his own, not from Bulma machine.

[90sDBZ]

I forgot to address the point about Daima supposedly having a better fight for SS4 than GT.

While I agree GT didn't always have the best fights, there were some real standout moments with SS4. The Baby fight was actually pretty solid. Goku is at his most intimidating early on in that fight, as he takes his time with the beatdown. There's also the moment where Baby targets the earth, forcing Goku to take his Galick Gun, before retaliating with Kamehameha x10 (which risks killing Vegeta in the process). There was a real mutual hatred in this fight, along with real stakes.

And there's other cool moments, like Goku taking out the Ice Dragon after being blinded by him. He punches a hole in him, then ends him with arguably the coolest looking Dragon Fist ever. Nothing in Daima compares to that.

His fight with Syn Shenron right after is also a standout. He's caught off guard by his arrival, and desperately tries to fight back while still blind. It's a real bleak situation with some serious suspense.

I've only seen Daima once and thought it was fine, but I'm honestly struggling to remember much about the Goma fight outside of the actual SS4 transformation itself. Goma being a lame villain doesn't really help.