Dragon Ball Refuses To Move Forward

[PrinceVegetto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXb7Xhdl9hE

I fully agree with all his points.

OG Dragon Ball (1986) getting the Kai treatment or being remade would be infinitely better of a 40th anniversary celebration than Super

[PhantomSaiyan]

I mean... I wouldn't mind OG Dragon Ball Remake, but that would be even more of a refusal to look forward than Super lol I don't even see Super as a refusal to move forward at all, it's literally the newest thing.

Besides, we are literally getting Moro adapted. The Super "Remake" (Remastered, Enhanced edition) is just about fixing what wasn't working about the original version, I don't see a problem with it.

[SupremeKai25]

Okay so, in general, when we use this expression... What exactly does "move forward" mean? Because if this is about going beyond Goku vs. Uub... that's Toriyama's original ending. Super was always intended as a midquel. Why should the story move beyond the ending instead of just... ending when Toriyama decided it?

[Grimlock]

Because if this is about going beyond Goku vs. Uub... that's Toriyama's original ending. (...) Why should the story move beyond the ending instead of just... ending when Toriyama decided it?

Yeah, Toriyama decided to end the manga there, but he's also the one who first speculated more stories (which he called "troubles"). Have you read this particular panel? Not to mention Vegeta being the very last person to appear in a panel, saying he would surpass Goku, that can only happen if there's more to tell.



What is the problem of moving forward? Why would you not want to move forward? Dragon Ball always moved forward, it never got stuck in the same place and time forever. So do you actually have solid arguments for wanting the exact opposite of what Dragon Ball always did? And what is the appeal of staying the same forever?

[MasenkoHA]

I feel like there’s some amount of irony in claiming Dragon Ball refuses to move forward, and then asking for a Kai version of the 1986 anime.

I will never understand the hyper fixation with going past the manga’s original ending. GT and Dragon Ball Online both exist. Neither of which I have much interest in, especially the latter, but we’re not exactly deprived of stories that take place after Goku takes off with a prepubescent from a third word country reincarnated from a psycho genie.

[SupremeKai25]

Because if this is about going beyond Goku vs. Uub... that's Toriyama's original ending. (...) Why should the story move beyond the ending instead of just... ending when Toriyama decided it?

Yeah, Toriyama decided to end the manga there, but he's also the one who first speculated more stories (which he called "troubles"). Have you read this particular panel? Not to mention Vegeta being the very last person to appear in a panel, saying he would surpass Goku, that can only happen if there's more to tell.
What is the problem of moving forward? Why would you not want to move forward? Dragon Ball always moved forward, it never got stuck in the same place and time forever. So do you actually have solid arguments for wanting the exact opposite of what Dragon Ball always did? And what is the appeal of staying the same forever?

You do realize Toriyama is just explaining that he wrote an open ending, right? That quote isn't actually setting up "more stories", it's just explaining that he left an open ending where Goku will still have adventures and face troubles, but surmount them thanks to the Dragon Balls. An open ending, by its very definition, invites more adventure, which we won't see because, you know, the main story ended.

What is the problem of moving forward? Why would you not want to move forward? Dragon Ball always moved forward, it never got stuck in the same place and time forever. So do you actually have solid arguments for wanting the exact opposite of what Dragon Ball always did? And what is the appeal of staying the same forever?

It's the ending to a story. Every story needs an ending eventually. It's not "staying the same forever", it's the ending of a story.

Bizarre take.

[Skar]

It's been almost 20 years since the Tarble special and every series since then has been set before EoZ. I know after every arc someone predicts the next one will finally go past EoZ but it seems more unlikely each year and now that Toriyama passed away.The Super remake will cover the rest of the manga by maybe 2028 or 2029 depending if the manga has another arc after SH.

[BernardoCairo]

I see the point, but wouldn't a Dragon Ball remake be even more backwards?

[The Dark Knight]

Not only is Dragon Ball refusing to move forward, but neither are the people in charge of it. Dragon Ball should have ended once Toriyama put his pen down in 1995 and once Toei finished animating the Buu arc and the two movies they had in production at the time (Wrath of the Dragon and Path to Power). Let me be clear, I'm not saying Dragon Ball should've been dead and buried, as the celebratory special/movie/mini series every 10 or so years would've been fine, but it should've ended as a continuous series with the Buu arc.

It's the ending to a story. Every story needs an ending eventually. It's not "staying the same forever", it's the ending of a story.

Having all these stories take place in a time period that was established to have been peaceful directly goes against the ending you're defending.

[JulieYBM]

Want to see new Dragon Ball? Get into the arts and do it yourself. I don't mean that dismissively, I mean that in a "You'll enjoy the process of creating the art that you want to see in the world."

[Hellspawn28]

A true manga adaption of the anime will still have people mad because things will be censored and people won't like that.

[sangofe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXb7Xhdl9hE

I fully agree with all his points.

OG Dragon Ball (1986) getting the Kai treatment or being remade would be infinitely better of a 40th anniversary celebration than Super

What does a remake of DB has to do with moving forward? That's rather moving backwards.

[Peach]

I thought Kai was unnecessary when it was announced because Funimation had just pushed out the orange boxes. I ended up being wrong. Kai carried the series back to the mainstream and brought in a whole new generation of fans.

The reality is, the Super anime as it was put out did damage to this franchise’s reputation. The sloppy animated scenes of Goku fighting Beerus and of Frieza harmed this brand and became memes.The films were successful, but the series had a lukewarm reception at best. And it’s been off the air for years. They want to cultivate a new audience before going into Moro and new material.

Super looked terrible, throughout its entire run. Just look at the universe 6 tournament when Frost hit Goku with the poison. Or the dull artistic direction of the future trunks timeline that lacked any kind of serious shading. Look at all the pointless episodes, like Goku and Vegeta changing Beerus’ bedsheets. Look at how Goku himself behaves - “Strong guys, cahh ^_^”.

[SupremeKai25]

Having all these stories take place in a time period that was established to have been peaceful directly goes against the ending you're defending.

No, it doesn't. It is peaceful to the Earth.

The Tournament of Destroyers saga, the Future Trunks saga, the Tournament of Power saga, and the Granolah the Survivor saga happened entirely outside of the Earth.

As for the arcs that happened within the Earth - Beerus, Broly, and the Cell Max did not actually kill or destroy any civilian on Earth.

The only antagonists in Super who actively endangered the lives of the humans were Freeza with his destruction of the planet and Moro with his stealing of the energy. Freeza's actions, however, were undone by Whis, leaving Moro as the only antagonist who actively caused harm to the humans and the Earth as a whole. One day in 10 years. That's still peaceful.

Nothing's being contradicted.

[kiarasuraru]

And it's easy to see why.

The first time DB truly "moved forward" was GT and I shouldn't need to explain anything about how that went.
The second time it happened was DBO, that barely anyone cares about or remembers, and died with a whimper. This is perhaps the most daring of the attempts so far because of how much lore it had and how far into the future it went.
Third time is Heroes/Xenoverse, which both cannibalized DBO concepts, but here's the kicker: The Time Patrol. Why do you think that exists? So you can clap when you see [CHARACTER] on the screen, so they can keep banking on nostalgia, on rehashing the same shit forever. Through things like Broly Movie or SS4 in Daima you can see the idea. Just look at how so many discussions about the future of the franchise are just about which filler/movie/game/etc thing should be "canonized" next.

You're starting to see the pattern, right?

Let's be honest, do you really think a show with a completely brand new cast, set in a brand new world hundreds of years into the future, with everyone you knew and loved is dead and gone, zero references, no nothing, would it be successful? You know it wouldn't.
They don't even have the balls to do something with Goten and Trunks. Daima was perfect for it and nothing happened. And Daima being yet another interquel is another sign of things. Hell, they didn't even have the balls to do with it with just Piccolo and Gohan got shoehorned in.
Because that's another thing, people complain about power creep, Saiyans this, Saiyans that, the rest of the cast is irrelevant, humans should be allowed to catch up but let's be real now. You really think, I don't know, a movie with just the humans would break records? You would think so because of how obnoxiously loud those people all, but we all know they're just a very loud minority. In reality people LOVE their Saiyanwank and beg for more.

They were utterly scared shitless of moving past EoZ back then, and now you add Toriyama being dead so they can't even ask him to come up with something, which they wouldn't have in the first place anyway, making them double scared of doing so.
But at the end of the day they don't even need to be scared, because people just want more of the same, more nostalgia to eat up, more references to clap to at.

All that said, there's AGE 1000. But let's be honest, games "don't count" and aren't "canon" so even if AGE 1000 is truly that, and will have a million times more exposure than DBO ever did... no one will treat it as such, it will only be treated as just another fun non-canon game full of fanfiction. And that's assuming it doesn't have a Time Patrol something thing so it ends up being the same thing as all the previous game-attempts.

Dragon Ball will never move on because Dragon Ball has become a completely incestuous franchise where everything is decided first and foremost for marketing, business and money reasons. Because Goku became too big, too iconic, he became Dragon Ball.
At the end of the day, no matter how much people love to pretend otherwise, this is a business. And the numbers don't lie.

[super michael]

Having all these stories take place in a time period that was established to have been peaceful directly goes against the ending you're defending.

No, it doesn't. It is peaceful to the Earth.

The Tournament of Destroyers saga, the Future Trunks saga, the Tournament of Power saga, and the Granolah the Survivor saga happened entirely outside of the Earth.

As for the arcs that happened within the Earth - Beerus, Broly, and the Cell Max did not actually kill or destroy any civilian on Earth.

The only antagonists in Super who actively endangered the lives of the humans were Freeza with his destruction of the planet and Moro with his stealing of the energy. Freeza's actions, however, were undone by Whis, leaving Moro as the only antagonist who actively caused harm to the humans and the Earth as a whole. One day in 10 years. That's still peaceful.

Nothing's being contradicted.

Earth had these danger:

BoG Beerus
RoF Freeza
Broly
Moro

The Goku Black, ToP and Granolah happened outside earth. Even if no civilians got caught in it, it doesn't change that the Z fighter had to fight. Therefore there was no peace at all.

In EOZ we see Goten and Trunks got carried away with the earth being peaceful, which turns out to be a huge lie in DBS. Goten and Trunks did want to train and fight, but we're simply forbidden from doing so and keeping them in the dark about events.


Goku saw Bulma in the Broly movie, that is a contradiction to not seeing Bulma in 5 years.

Buu needing to hibernate is a huge contradiction, when he only needs to sleep for a few seconds. Do I need to mention why DBS Goku and Chi Chi contradicts DBZ?

[PhantomSaiyan]

Buu needing to hibernate is a huge contradiction, when he only needs to sleep for a few seconds. Do I need to mention why DBS Goku and Chi Chi contradicts DBZ?

You already mention that in every thread my friend, I think I speak on behalf of the entire Kanzenshuu forum in saying that there is absolutely no need for you to mention that again. Like.. ever again

And like I told you already in another thread some time ago, your problem with Super Chichi is weird. She barely appears in the show, barely does anything and barely says anything. Weird hill to die on man

[super michael]

Buu needing to hibernate is a huge contradiction, when he only needs to sleep for a few seconds. Do I need to mention why DBS Goku and Chi Chi contradicts DBZ?

You already mention that in every thread my friend, I think I speak on behalf of the entire Kanzenshuu forum in saying that there is absolutely no need for you to mention that again. Like.. ever again

And like I told you already in another thread some time ago, your problem with Super Chichi is weird. She barely appears in the show, barely does anything and barely says anything. Weird hill to die on man

I bought it up since SupremeKai25 claims DBS doesn't contradict DBZ and EOZ.

I am aware Chi Chi is really minor and doesn't affect the story, however it was still bad writing none the less.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I bought it up since SupremeKai25 claims DBS doesn't contradict DBZ and EOZ.

I am aware Chi Chi is really minor and doesn't affect the story, however it was still bad writing none the less.

You bring it up everytime man, regardless of reason, you always manage to find a reason to sneak it in. Today it's because of SupremeKai25, yesterday it was something else, and the day before that it was some other thing, etc etc
We get the message, you don't have to say it everytime.

And Super Chi Chi is fine, how is she bad writing? Her 2 spoken sentences are bad writing? Weird fixation man.
If anything, it's Z that messed up Chichi by adding a ton of filler that made her insufferable when in the manga she does none of that. Chichi is inoffensive in Super.

[SupremeKai25]

I bought it up since SupremeKai25 claims DBS doesn't contradict DBZ and EOZ.

I am aware Chi Chi is really minor and doesn't affect the story, however it was still bad writing none the less.

You bring it up everytime man, regardless of reason, you always manage to find a reason to sneak it in. Today it's because of SupremeKai25, yesterday it was something else, and the day before that it was some other thing, etc etc
We get the message, you don't have to say it everytime.

And Super Chi Chi is fine, how is she bad writing? Her 2 spoken sentences are bad writing? Weird fixation man.
If anything, it's Z that messed up Chichi by adding a ton of filler that made her insufferable when in the manga she does none of that. Chichi is inoffensive in Super.

I wasn't even talking about any character. That poster always brings up Goten and Trunks and how Chi Chi forbidding Goten from training is apparently the worst crime in the series.

I'm just making two points:

1) Every story needs an ending. Why surpass the ending of Goku vs. Uub, when it's the natural ending of the story? What kind of story could possibly be worth digging up the corpse of this franchise?

2) The Earth is still largely peaceful in DBS. U6, Zamasu, Jiren, Granolah, Heeters are not threats to the Earth. Beerus, Broly, and Cell Max did not shake the peace of the Earth. Humans went on with their lives like nothing happened. The only two who genuinely shook the peace of the humans were Freeza and Moro.

To say that DBS "contradicted the peaceful Earth lore" is a gross exaggeration. No it didn't. I feel like people who say this are forgetting that Cell and Buu were literally going around slaughtering people for fun. Beerus, Broly, Cell Max weren't doing that - thankfully, they were stopped by our Heroes before that happened.

The only time the peace was shaken is when Freeza destroyed North City and Moro drained the humans of energy. These plots really don't ruin the "peaceful world" saga of DBZ though.