Nice essay

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:15 pm

Well done so far, EX. I reached the part after your interview with number18 before getting bored (essay reading's not always fun, especially when the essay's 18+pages. Don't chalk it up to bad writing). What grade did you get on it? For some reason I keep picturing some balding teacher with glasses saying "This is a great essay, Michael, but it has nothing to do with the assigned topic of the French Revolution".

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun May 16, 2004 9:20 pm

I'm assuming I got an "A" on it. I got an "A" in the class, and the final paper was 50% of our grade. So yeah

.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 16, 2004 11:02 pm

Niceness+ bud.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sun May 16, 2004 11:46 pm

Dayspring wrote:For some reason I keep picturing some balding teacher with glasses saying "This is a great essay, Michael, but it has nothing to do with the assigned topic of the French Revolution".

Ah, man that's great.

Must... read... editorial...

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:05 am

I just got finished with it now. All I can say is whoa...

That was a lot to take in, my head is still spinning. A lot of interesting ideas were put forward, like how technology crosses gender boundaries, making us all cyborgs in a sence...I probably got that wrong anyways.

Good idea using anime for your topic though. Congrats on your A

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:14 am

I've read it. I love it. You deserved your A.

While I'm glad I always knew what you were referring to, due to all 3 anime being huge favorites of mine, and while it makes me feel like a "supar-l33t-experienced-otaku" to know exactly what you mean about the elements of Japanese ideals and culture in anime, I'm a little sad that I couldn't see your editorial from an "outside" standpoint... Oh well.

I don't want to sound biased when I say this: Anime is on a whole new level of depth and detail from American cartoons. Maybe you should compare it to live-action television, next time

.

Did I mention I loved the damn thing?

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 am

Great essay, I read it through and really enjoyed it. It's nice to be able to go to a DB website and find intelligent editorials that go beyond "Why Goku Sucks." It's times like this when I really miss Kienzan's Edge...

I noticed you didn't include GT when you referred to the DB series. I was curious about how you were going to analyze Pan's role, and a little disappointed when you didn't. She's one of the few that, though not as powerful as the guys, was still much more than a background character (Bra) or an sometimes-important-to-the-plot-but-always-on-the-sidelines character (Bulma). GT was mostly lousy, but it did have a shift in roles.

Zackarotto wrote:I don't want to sound biased when I say this: Anime is on a whole new level of depth and detail from American cartoons.

Not completely. There is one American animated series that was better than the vast majority of anime I've seen. Gargoyles. It came out in 1994 and lasted until 1997. The plot was almost flawless, the characters deep, and the animation beautiful (particularly the episodes animated by Walt Disney Japan...) It was made by Disney, but was unlike anything Disney had ever made or ever would. The fandom is practically dead online, but there is one site that started in '95 or '96 that was the Planet Namek of their online community until '99. http://www.gargoyles-fans.org

Anyone else here ever watch that show?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon May 17, 2004 4:39 am

Alias wrote:I noticed you didn't include GT when you referred to the DB series. I was curious about how you were going to analyze Pan's role, and a little disappointed when you didn't. She's one of the few that, though not as powerful as the guys, was still much more than a background character (Bra) or an sometimes-important-to-the-plot-but-always-on-the-sidelines character (Bulma). GT was mostly lousy, but it did have a shift in roles.

Not to go off-topic, but I think Pan is more of an example of the stereotype. Yes she's more independant than most of the women in the series, but her "role" is usually rushing into a problem without thinking, and then having Goku rescue her as a result. This only happens about a billion times.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:28 am

In DB, doing something like that and being rescued isn't really feminine, it's masculine. Look at Vegeta, he spends much of his time being rescued by Goku, Gohan and Mirai Trunks and yet he's not criticized (much) for it. The DB guys are constantly rushing into battles out of anger, arrogance, or just plain stupidity and ending up rescued by someone else. Pan may get rescued often, but it is Goku (who's her Grampa, and spends much of his time rescuing people anyway) and it isn't her only role. She fights, is involved in the story, and has her own personality.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:14 am

Alias: Not to go to far off topic, but Gargoyles is hardly the norm. I loved the show. The animation style, the in-depth characters and plots, the lack of suckage and stupidity that most American shows have. The show was the practically the definition of perfection. Sadly though, as I said, it's not the norm. Most American shows are like Loney Toons, Tiny Toons, Selvester and Tweety, etc...

That's not to say that some aren't still good. Teen Titans and Justice League come to mind. But most of them aren't that intelligent. I think mainly it's America's mindset that 'Cartoons are for kids' that does it though.

VegEX: Ineed, awesome essay. I must agree with Zacko's sentiment.

Zacko wrote:Anime is on a whole new level of depth and detail from American cartoons. Maybe you should compare it to live-action television, next time

You should do something comparing Anime to General American animated, and for that matter, live action shows as well. Too many people put the high quality Anime shows on the same level as Looney Toons and the other American originating dribble that's out there I need something to point to so I can set them straight.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:06 am

Alias! I love Gargoyles! That show was indeed fantastic! I always felt it was more like an anime series than an American cartoon. More ironic is the fact that it was from Disney! Justice League and Teen Titans are great too. But you can't forget other shows like Reboot, and Beast Wars,yes Tranformers is originally Japanese, but BW was North American-made, and still is the most adult, complex, and interesting of any Transformers series ever done.

tablet the eunuch · Post by **tablet the eunuch** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:32 pm

Transformers technically isn;'t anime, as it was only FUNDED and animated by a Japanese company (and for all we know, Japanese people never even drew anything up until headmasters. Toei do outsource to Korean/Chinese studios, or atleast did). It was aired in America first with American voices, was directed by an American, written by americans and every other major point of production was helmed by Americans.

In any case, I did like Gargoyles. And it's true that there's not as many good US Cartoons as there are Japanese ones, but you have to realise that not all of the Japanese like Anime. Many of them do view it in the same light as US adults would view cartoons. Yes, sure, Spirited Away and Ghibli stuff do well in the box office and such, but it's because they're somewhat wholesome and can be enjoyed by Everyone. They're also not subject to the Child/Nerd marketting pandering a lot of normal anime are subject to.

While various companies still spurn the same stuff even after sixty odd years, it's because it still has the potential to sell and what not. It's not that they don't care (or they could, who knows), it's just that is what makes them their money. It can also be what they enjoy.

Also take into account a lot of what we have today, anime-wise, pretty much derrives from American style or American influenced Animation anyhow.

Also, along the vein of JLA, the 1990's Batman series was really well done. I also like Batman Beyond too.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:25 pm

I agree with tablet here its not so much american cartoons versus Anime

I will grant more anime is intelligent than the US toons but theres more anime period, I'd venture to guess the percentage is about the same - theres some pretty mindless anime out there too - not to say mindless is bad - stuff like Risky Safety while mindless is absolutely hilarious.

some very good US toons:

Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors (see my avatar)
Transformers
Thundercats (had its better and worse moments)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the new one, not the old one)
90s Batman series
Batman Beyond
90s Spiderman toon
90s X Men toon
Gargoyles
JLA
Teen Titans
He Man (new not old)
Transformers Armada and Energon

and thats about all I got from the top of my head, but still thers some VERY good American Animation out there too.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:37 pm

Armada and Energon are not American cartoons. Thundercats...I'm not sure, but isn't that some kinda American/Japanese hybrid? And wasn't Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors an anime, too?

And saying that Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, and Loony Toons are childish cartoons with no mature aspects makes you as foolish as those who say that everything animated is for kids.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 17, 2004 3:28 pm

That's not quite what I'd ment Liam. What I was trying to say is that about 90% of American cartoons are are in that vien of works. I've not much cared for Loony/Tiny toons and the rest for sometime, their just extreamly dull and pointless. Now, I'll admit to watching Scooby Doo from time to time (when I've got cable, which I don't right now

) but it's several steps above the other stuff.

And I haven't seen much, if any, American cartoons that weren't targeted toward the younger audiences. Even Teen Titans was alted to go for younger audiences, and the comic's American and for older audiences. It just dosen't make sense to me.

And I'm pretty sure Thundercats is Anime, and I know the new Justice League, Batman Beyond, Teen Titans, and the new TMNT are all Anime Inspirationals barrowing styles (not just the Animation either) from Anime. Not that it's a bad thing, it's a nice direction to go in, away from the endless senselessness of Loony Toons.

As for what laserkid said about mindless anime, yeah, there is. FLCL is a good example, but it's GOOD mindlessness unlike most American animated dribble. I've yet to figure out how we can put out such damn good live action shows and such utter suckage with our animated stuff. Granted, we do hit bad spots with our live action shows too, (WB's Tarzan for example. Ick.) and works of brilliance with our animated ones (Teen Titans, Static Shock, Justice League), but it's not exactly ballanced.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:44 pm

Oh, come on. Scooby-Doo is far more pointless and childish than any episode of Animaniacs. At least they have variety in plot, humour, and animation. Plus some extremely good music, too.

I can see why you might not like Loony Tunes stuff. But it's still clearly extremely well-made and intelligent writing, in amoungst the "wackyness". Chicken Boo alone was one of the funiest things I've ever seen, ever.

Xyex wrote:And I'm pretty sure Thundercats is Anime, and I know the new Justice League, Batman Beyond, Teen Titans, and the new TMNT are all Anime Inspirationals barrowing styles (not just the Animation either) from Anime.

I'm not sure what shows you are watching, but I really don't get "anime-style" when I watch Batman Beyond or Justice League. I get "Bruce Timm". If anything, the massively simplified and stylised art style is the direct opposite of the often-hugely detailed typical anime style.

Still, at least you didn't claim that The Powerpuff Girls are drawn in an anime style...

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon May 17, 2004 7:34 pm

I remember Gargoyles. I remember it being better than most cartoons, but I don't remember it breaking levels of depth. If it did, which is cool, it certainly doesn't bring up the standards.

Of course, there was more to Beauty and the Beast than saving a princess. Does anybody care? No.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:50 pm

PsyLiam wrote:Oh, come on. Scooby-Doo is far more pointless and childish than any episode of Animaniacs. At least they have variety in plot, humour, and animation. Plus some extremely good music, too.

I can see why you might not like Loony Tunes stuff. But it's still clearly extremely well-made and intelligent writing, in amoungst the "wackyness". Chicken Boo alone was one of the funiest things I've ever seen, ever.

Xyex wrote:And I'm pretty sure Thundercats is Anime, and I know the new Justice League, Batman Beyond, Teen Titans, and the new TMNT are all Anime Inspirationals barrowing styles (not just the Animation either) from Anime.
I'm not sure what shows you are watching, but I really don't get "anime-style" when I watch Batman Beyond or Justice League. I get "Bruce Timm". If anything, the massively simplified and stylised art style is the direct opposite of the often-hugely detailed typical anime style.

Still, at least you didn't claim that The Powerpuff Girls are drawn in an anime style...

........

........

Did you just call Scooby Doo pointless!

You... you... you... Arg! And more so than Animaniacs?

Animaniacs, thought it was fun for the first season, is the epitome of pointlessness. It was fun, it was orginal, then it sunk. They used the same jokes, granted they changed the set-up, but it was the same gag.

As for Batman Beyond and Justice League, only BB had any artistic hints of Anime in the least, but it wasn't the art work, more the general nature of it. And Justice League screams Anime influences nearly every episode, with nearly every plot.

Errg, my head's swimming from being sick so I'll stop here.

number18 · Post by **number18** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:59 pm

The essay is superb, VegEX. I was very happy reading it, and found it extremely interesting. I don't think I would've ever written such a concise, focused paper myself (then again I still haven't been to college

).

Cheers to the A.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon May 17, 2004 11:46 pm

Xyex wrote:
That's not to say that some aren't still good. Teen Titans and Justice League come to mind. But most of them aren't that intelligent. I think mainly it's America's mindset that 'Cartoons are for kids' that does it though.

Isn't Teen Titans a Korean cartoon?

Kanzenshuu

Nice essay

Nice essay

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