17 and 18 question

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:16 am

I know 18 said she and 17 are brother and sister, but I started wondering after seeing a fanart of Marron and 17 together... is it just because they're both Androids that were created at the same time?

I mean, I thought they didn't remember their past, so how would she know? Is there anything offical out there on the matter?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:20 am

I'm wondering if the notion that they are actual siblings is similar to the case of people thinking GT took place 10 years after DBZ. It's an "assumption" that fans have accepted as "fact" because perhaps it was first stated by a reputable source. If it is indeed fact, that would make that fanart pretty twisted since that would mean that Marron has gotten with her "uncle" technically.

And if they aren't actual flesh and blood siblings, one thing would make sense. The fact that #17 and #18 don't seem to make an effort to have any kind of sibling relationship with each other after the whole business with Cell. #17 goes and lives in the wilderness alone and #18 lives quietly with her husband and daughter at Kamesennin's place. As near as I can figure, they don't ever see one another until the Super #17 saga in GT. If you were #18, and#17 was really your brother, wouldn't you want to continue having ties with the only bit of family you had, not including Kuririn and Marron? And Marron's missing out on having an uncle in her life. Yes, I know that Goku says that whole thing about #17 not being able to really kill her because deep down, he remembered they were brother and sister, but we already know that using GT as evidence doesn't count.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue May 25, 2004 12:14 pm

Yeah, but 7 years went by (after Cell). For all we know #17 JUST moved out of Kame-house an hour before Gohan shows up (to tell about budoukai) because he had a great job offer. Since the Boo saga took place in 2 days, and the training sessions were done in one-panel shots, maybe he had every weekend off and kept returning for all we know.

Besides, doesn't Trunks say that they're twins?
And if you like daizenshuu 7 Toriyama himself confirms that they are twins.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue May 25, 2004 1:13 pm

Yes, 17 & 18 were twins even before they were made into cyborgs. I believe Toriyama himself stated that, as Dayspring said.

And I'm not really suprised if 17 & 18 broke their ties after the Cell saga. 17 hated humans, and 18 married one. Kinda hard on their relationship.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Tue May 25, 2004 1:45 pm

I agree with Deus on the whole human hating thing. No. 17 may have decided not to go around killing people for No. 18's sake, but that doesn't mean he liked them. "Fine... just because we're family... but I don't have to live with it." Or something.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:23 pm

Ben Plante wrote:I agree with Deus on the whole human hating thing. No. 17 may have decided not to go around killing people for No. 18's sake, but that doesn't mean he liked them. "Fine... just because we're family... but I don't have to live with it." Or something.

Or even more likely, 17 didn't try causing chaos because he knew that Vegeta and Gohan were strong enough to stomp his ass flat now if he tried.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:34 pm

Both make sense to me.

Anyway, yes, 17 and 18 are both twins, with 18 being the older one. When Kuririn commented on how 17 and 18 were lovers while on Kami's Lookout, she popped up and said that 17 was her younger brother, using a specific term. I can't remember which one... Check out number18's site for info.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue May 25, 2004 3:48 pm

Oh well that clears it up. Which means those fanfics and art putting Marron and #17 together are as twisted an idea as I thought.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Tue May 25, 2004 5:30 pm

Fanfics and art? Perhaps it's better now to say Lemons and Hentai.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue May 25, 2004 6:30 pm

No, not like that Ben! Sheesh. It was a fanart of a photo album showing Marron and 17 and a baby.

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Tue May 25, 2004 7:22 pm

I know, I'm playing. That's why the smiles.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Tue May 25, 2004 10:40 pm

In the scene on Kami's lookout, 18 doesn't specifically say that 17 is younger than her. Her line in Japanese is, "17-gou to watashi wa futago no kyoudai da!" "futago no kyoudai" indicates that they're twin siblings, but it doesn't give evidence as to which one is older. The reason I'm replying with this is that I'd never heard before that there was evidence of which one was the older twin. If it's true that 18 is older, it must have come from a Daizenshuu or something, because I don't think it's mentioned in the series (it could have come from GT, but that's not exactly canon).

The S · Post by **The S** » Tue May 25, 2004 11:10 pm

Oddly enough, I was contemplating writing an online doujin about 17 & 18 before they became Androids... their names would have been Shinichiro and Meri, respectively.

On another note, I remember reading a doujinshii about Marron's birth (heh, Roshi came in and was all like "Can I touch it?" and 18 calls him a dirty old pervert.

). Anyway, after it's finally revealed that it is possible for the Androids to have children, it shows 17 in an alley hiding from a bunch of angry women, screaming "I thought you said you couldn't have kids!" And 17's like "Oh shit!"

Funny stuff, man.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Tue May 25, 2004 11:17 pm

Found it! http://www.aino.com/akatombo/kand18/details.htm

An editorial talking about the exact phrasing of 18's sentence and the kanji used (kanji is a tricky bastard).

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed May 26, 2004 12:20 am

The S wrote:Oddly enough, I was contemplating writing an online doujin about 17 & 18 before they became Androids... their names would have been Shinichiro and Meri, respectively.

On another note, I remember reading a doujinshii about Marron's birth (heh, Roshi came in and was all like "Can I touch it?" and 18 calls him a dirty old pervert. ). Anyway, after it's finally revealed that it is possible for the Androids to have children, it shows 17 in an alley hiding from a bunch of angry women, screaming "I thought you said you couldn't have kids!" And 17's like "Oh shit!"

Funny stuff, man.

Yeah, I remember seeing that one awhile ago. That was pretty cute, seeing Kuririn freak out and try to be manly for her, and she just thinks he's flipped.

number18 · Post by **number18** » Wed May 26, 2004 1:08 am

Ugggh Marron and 17? What's up with these thirteen year old girls??? I have a hard time with Trunks and Marron, let alone her own UNCLE. =blararrrrgh=

What also bothers me are the Pan and #17 pairings. So gross. That girl is like 11 and 17 is god knows how old. Yeah, he was made a cyborg when he was a teen, but how long ago was that?

We need a barfing emoticon.

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 am

Hmm, I kinda noticed that the kanji were different from the normal ones when I was checking up on that line earlier today, but I guess I didn't put much thought into it. It just goes to show that, even after being a fan of a series for over five years, you can always learn something new ^_^ Bow before my ever increasing amount of useless-except-in-a-trivia-challenge knowledge!

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Wed May 26, 2004 2:03 am

*bows* We're not worthy~!

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed May 26, 2004 5:43 pm

number18 wrote:Ugggh Marron and 17? What's up with these thirteen year old girls??? I have a hard time with Trunks and Marron, let alone her own UNCLE. =blararrrrgh=

What also bothers me are the Pan and #17 pairings. So gross. That girl is like 11 and 17 is god knows how old. Yeah, he was made a cyborg when he was a teen, but how long ago was that?

We need a barfing emoticon.

Agreed. I've followed DB fanfics since 2000 and have steadily seen the age gaps increase. Yamucha/Marron... Vegeta/Pan... Ugh.

I've complained about these before, asking why these very 'mature' men can't get women their own ages and have always gotten that typical response about how I'm closed-minded and "True love knows no age! They're May and December!" I've even seen pairings with Pan being 14 and having Trunks' interest... Yeach! It's even worse in the HP fandom where every kid is paired with their middle-aged professors the instant they hit 15/16/17... or whatever age the author thinks is legal.

Barfing emotican indeed.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 26, 2004 8:42 pm

I can top that: Satan making out w/Pan for making it to the Boo fight in a fanfic that continued the 28th budoukai. **Curls into a fetal position**

Kanzenshuu

17 and 18 question

17 and 18 question

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