Would you swap it all for your perfect ending?

Jodaku · Post by **Jodaku** » Fri May 28, 2004 5:11 am

Toriyama has said that in the end, he wasn’t satisfied with the DB manga. What exactly he was unsatisfied with is unknown. It could be one or a number of things such as the direction the manga ended up going, the way he finished it, not being able to do things the way he wanted to do them (i.e. having Gohan kill Buu) or maybe being persuaded to carry on with the manga when he had thought he had a perfect finish for it (*cough* end of the Freeza Saga *cough*).

Now, I could be wrong, but I get the general feeling that most of us fans kinda feel the same way, especially in the way how the manga ended.

I mean honestly, in terms of the perfect ending, to wrap up the whole story, would you have ended it in the Buu saga?

I know I for one wouldn’t. I mean if Gohan had killed Buu, and Goku stayed dead, I probably wouldn’t mind the ending, infact I would have accepted it quite happily. A least it would have carried on the theme of the Cell Saga of passing on the touch and leave Goku to being a sort of guardian, rather than having him being the active hero.

But it didn’t turn out like that.

As for my personal perfect ending, it’s got to be the Freeza saga. I use say the end of the Cell saga, where the father and son subject matter dominates throughout, and ending with the theme of passing on the touch from father to son, with Goku dying a noble death, and having his spirit drive Gohan on to defeat the enemy would have been a nice way to end the series (not to mention my personal bias of having my favourite character ending the series as the top man). But I just think that ending it at the Freeza saga would have wrapped up the WHOLE story SO perfectly, chronicling a story of a warrior who slowly rises to not only to become the best on Earth, but the best in the Universe, who eventually fulfils the greatest of legends.

I mean just look at the big picture, in DB we see Goku’s progress in becoming the best warrior on the planet, making friends, enemies, enemies-turned-friends along the way. He’s always had something special about him, a special strength, something that goes beyond his purity and hardworking nature. This is then brilliantly explained in the beginning of the “Z” era, where it’s revealed that he’s actually part of a warrior alien race, and in cruel twist of irony, they’re a murderous, savage evil race, and Goku was sent to Earth to originally destroy it, something Goku has tried so hard to do the very opposite of. This then leads to THE ultimate battle for Earth (and I still regard this as THE battle for Earth, never mind anything in the Cell and Buu Sagas, as much as I love em) where even Earth’s previous greatest threat (Piccolo) join hands with others to fight for their lives in a brutal, heavy heated battle where warriors are lost, and few survive. This leads us on to Namek, where we come across the undoubted ruler of the universe, Freeza, who is eventually defeated by Goku who fulfils the legend, but as prophesised, the Legendary Super Saiyan dies, in an exploding planet, while with Piccolo dead, no one would have been revived, and Gohan would have been the only warrior left alive on Earth, the only Saiyan warrior left (or at least that is what is generally believed what would have happened had Toriyama finished the manga here) and the irony is that Gohan isn’t a warrior at heart. It would have been a dark and bittersweet ending, but what a fucking amazing ending it would have been. Also it would have seen Toriyama’s evolution of the manga go full circle, going from a slapstick action comedy, to a serious action drama series (with still that hint of comedy mind).

Wow, that was quite a rant, anyway if you’re still with me, would sacrifice what we end up getting for your perfect ending, and, what is your perfect ending, if it isn’t the existing one?

To answer my own question, I don’t know. DB’s strongest point are it’s characters with its development and growth, and if it had ended like what I described above, then characters like Gohan and Vegeta wouldn’t have nearly been as fleshed out as they were, and we wouldn’t have been introduced to an awesome and deep character in Mirai Trunks. While ending at Freeza saga would have made the perfect ending to the story and made DB an overall more satisfying story, it probably wouldn’t have its reputation as series of great character development, without the sufficient development and growth of the two strongest and dynamic characters in the series (Gohan and Vegeta), and the introduction of an incredibly deep one in Mirai Trunks.

And let’s not forget there are dozens and dozens of awesome moments from post-Freeza saga that I couldn’t do without, with my all time moment coming from the Cell Games with SSJ2 Gohan (and just generally everything else from the Cell Games, Goku Vs Cell kicked so much ass! And that final Kamehameha clash!), with other huge favourites such as Mystic Gohan, Mirai Trunks Vs Freeza and King Cold, the whole Majin Vegeta arc, the Terminator-esque storyline of the Cell saga, Goku’s SSJ3 transformation, etc.

What DB loses as an overall story after the Freeza saga (not so much so in the Cell Saga, but more so in the Buu saga), it more than makes up for it in the continued character development and growth of it’s character and awesome moments and excitement it provides.

So I guess it’s a question of if you want completely fleshed out characters, or the perfect story, something which I feel DB in the end, despite some minor niggles, does the former, while finishing at the Freeza saga would have done the latter.

Now over to you, and feel free to disagree with anything else I’ve written, as well as answering the question.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Fri May 28, 2004 9:50 am

I, myself, kinda have mixed feelings about the ending of Dragonball as a whole. Granted I would TOTALLY exclude DBGT due to the lack of Toriyama actually doing it since he ended it after the Buu Saga.

Freeza Saga Ending: Hmm, I'd have to say the end of the "Ruler of the Universe", Goku fulfilling the Legend and Namek blowing up with no real survivors except Gohan, Piccolo, Krilling, and Vegeta (possibly) wouldn't be acceptable. I think that'd leave too many unanswered questions (kinda like 3X3 Eyes did) and the fans prolly wouldn't liked that a whole lot.

Cell Saga Ending: I'd have to lean towards this one, Gohan attaining SSJ and his overwhelming desire not to hurt people and for peace which I think he tried to emphasize more than Goku during the fight at the Cell Games. Goku dying to save his son who has more or less followed in his footsteps and then aiding him in the defeat of a Bio-Android composed of the greatest combatants in the universe would've been a better ending I think. Plus, I like the whole "alternate time-line" deal with Mirai Trunks it kinda made what the Z Warriors do count more than just "training for a big threat" which I think Frieza didn't really pose as much of one compared to Cell. Gohan beating Cell and then going on to be the scholar that his mother wanted him to while his father watched over him would've been kinda nice.

Buu Saga Ending: (Sheesh, talk about ranting) I wasn't a big fan of it. I did like that Goku asked for Buu to be reincarnated so he got a real chance to fight him without such high stakes. A food-crazed giant pink gumball with layers (Super Buu, Kid Buu) which was made solely for destroying the universe is kinda sad.

The true ending of DB is not all that I would've liked, the Cell Saga ending the series prolly would've got my approval.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri May 28, 2004 10:39 am

I personally would have ended it after the Cell saga, or have found another person/method to fight Kid Boo other than SSJ3 Goku. (ex: Rou Kaioshin has ANOTHER mysterious ability to make non-SSJ Goku+Vegeta as strong their SSJ1 stages, or the Nameks had some special ability that Dende didn't know about)

If it were to have ended after the Freeza saga, Vegeta would have been the strongest in the universe and felt unsatisfied since he couldn't fight Goku. That would either lead to him blowing up the Earth and conquering the universe like he originally intended, or leave HIM as Earth's defender because he'd probably stick around to see how Earth changed the weakest Saiyan ever into the strongest fighter of all time.

An alternate ending I'd like to have seen in a fanmanga would be to have Goku return in time for the 24th Budoukai. One of the contendors could have been King Cold who wanted to avenge Freeza's death by humiliating Goku in front of the whole world before killing him. In the quarter-finals he could have pissed everybody off by nearly killing Gohan or Krillin, but to everybody's surprise he gets his ass handed to him by Vegeta in the semi-finals. Goku+Piccolo could fight in the other semi-finals, and Vegeta would finally admit he's the #2 in the universe when he loses to SSJ Goku in the final match.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri May 28, 2004 10:58 am

I love the possiblites ending it with the Frieza saga would have had. The nice and neat 'full cirlce' feel of an ending. Going from a child who just barely escaped death when he his home world and people were destroyed, to attaining the ultimate power and avenging them all by defeating Frieza once and for all.

But still, the Cell Saga ending would have been the perfect finish. I just loved the ending of it. (Which is no doubt one of th reasons I still play the story mode of B1 so damn much.) It would have been a great ending though we would have missed out on the good parts of the Buu Saga I still think that would have been best.

Dayspring wrote:I personally would have ended it after the Cell saga, or have found another person/method to fight Kid Boo other than SSJ3 Goku. (ex: Rou Kaioshin has ANOTHER mysterious ability to make non-SSJ Goku+Vegeta as strong their SSJ1 stages, or the Nameks had some special ability that Dende didn't know about).

Or, how about the 'Evil Containment Wave'? It would have been difficult to have someone new learn it since only Roshi and Tien knew it but that would have been a good way to end. Especially if Gohan, Goku, or Vegeta had used it. You can't get much more of a dramtic ending than that, so long as you left the person dead anyway.

[Shameless plug] Which is why, in my 'Altered History' story arc even Parunga can only revive someone once. Gets rid of that blasted 'Oh, they'll just wish him back, again, in a few days.' thing. DBZ could have been a lot more emotional/dramatic if there wasn't always the possiblity of reviving the dead.[/Shamless plug]

Kodoshin · Post by **Kodoshin** » Fri May 28, 2004 11:13 am

I'm one of the few people I guess that really liked the Boo saga ending, I really do not believe Dragon Ball should have to be tainted with a "semi-happy" ending.

Ryu · Post by **Ryu** » Fri May 28, 2004 11:47 am

Well I would have prefered it if it had ended at the Cell saga, I'm a sucker for the passing the torch thing. Plus it got my favourite transformation in that, the japanese version of ssj 2 Gohan rocks.

Just for fun, if I could change a ending, I would have made the Buu saga follow Movie 9. Have Gohan battle Super Buu 2 but doing a lot better but was losing because his skill couldn't compare. Goku teleports in saving Gohan, gives words of encouragement to Gohan and before Buu knows what's what. Gohan does the biggest Kamehameha wave and kills Buu.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Fri May 28, 2004 1:43 pm

Dayspring wrote: If it were to have ended after the Freeza saga, Vegeta would have been the strongest in the universe and felt unsatisfied since he couldn't fight Goku. That would either lead to him blowing up the Earth and conquering the universe like he originally intended, or leave HIM as Earth's defender because he'd probably stick around to see how Earth changed the weakest Saiyan ever into the strongest fighter of all time.

I've said this before, but if things had ended at the end of the Freezer saga, I'd bet money that Vegeta would have stayed dead. Either that, or he'd have roamed the universe, forever searching for Goku and never finding him (due to him being dead and all).

And I know that Phosphorus Chesnuts' name hasbeen subject to some terrible, terrible abuse, but "Krilling"?

Meri · Post by **Meri** » Fri May 28, 2004 1:51 pm

Wow, Mike and I were (geeking-ly enough) talking about this the other day. Like others have mentioned, we thought the end of the Cell saga with Gohan killing Cell, and Goku being dead would have been the best and most natural ending.

I don't think I would have liked to have series end with the Freeza saga, as that's a bit depressing: Goku getting killed by the planet exploding? Hells no! Him sacrificing himself in the Cell fight and ending after that would have been the most dramatic, I think.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Fri May 28, 2004 3:03 pm

PsyLiam wrote: And I know that Phosphorus Chesnuts' name hasbeen subject to some terrible, terrible abuse, but "Krilling"?

It sounds delicious to me.

Post by **TripleRach** » Fri May 28, 2004 5:28 pm

I really think the Freeza ending would've been the best, storywise, but it wouldn't be a very happy or nice way to go out, and probably wouldn't sit well with most people. Almost like when a certain someone dies in another popular shounen manga, the author had to bring them back, because it just would've been too sad and painful for a series marketed towards young boys. It certainly hit me very hard. (Series not named, for spoilery reasons.)

That said, I have a few things I'm not too high on in the Cell Saga, but ending it there would've felt all warm and fuzzy. Gokuu's death always makes me cry, but his encouragement in the big Kamehameha showdown, and silly speech during the Shenlong summoning, make it feel a lot better. You can see that it makes Gohan feel a lot better, too, so you know Gohan will be able to take care of things in his father's absence.

Still, ideally, I'd pick the Freeza ending, but I'd also settle for Cell.

Muten Turtel · Post by **Muten Turtel** » Fri May 28, 2004 6:39 pm

Obviously they couldn't really resolve everything at the end of either the cell or frieza saga's. The only part of the Majin Buu saga most fans couldn't live without is the Majin Vegeta vs. Gokou fight.

If it was ended at the cell saga we wouldn't need SSJ3 because at the end of the Cell games two was enough. Make Vegeta loose his purpose to become the strongest because Gokou is dead so it ends with a futuristic ending of him still training but not angry anymore. Gokou is happy in other world while Gohan becomes a scholar, if you want to leave it open to possibilities like in the official end of the series then introduceGoten.

Dragon ball GT resolves no important questions and I think Pan is straight annoying plus everyone acts like its a under-twelve show.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Sat May 29, 2004 3:55 am

I think I'm in the minority here. I'd stick with the current ending rather than cut it short. While the Freeza saga ending would have been brilliant, it would have been ultimately unsatisfying due to so much being missed. Unlike most people, I didn't like the Cell saga much. It was... bland. Trunks was bland. Cell was bland. Most of the characters were bland (Vegeta, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, Goku...) There just wasn't much that I found funny or dramatic other than the very beginning (Trunks saga and interlude) and the very end. It's my least favorite of the Z sagas.

For all its faults (lousy main villain in particular), the Buu saga had a lot of character development that we would have otherwise missed. Vegeta's sacrifice allowed him to come to a full circle and his relationship with Goku was resolved. New characters like Kaioshin, Goten, Videl, Trunks (not technically new, but he was now older and able to play a role), etc... came into play. The series was deepened and the possibilities grew (yeah, I'm an avid fanfic writer). Sure, there's a LOT I would change about the series, but ending it sooner wouldn't be one of them.

On an extra note, I'm not counting GT as the ending. As far as I'm concerned, none of that stuff ever happened.

Jodaku · Post by **Jodaku** » Sat May 29, 2004 10:29 am

TripleRach wrote:Still, ideally, I'd pick the Freeza ending, but I'd also settle for Cell.

Same here, Freeza would've been the perfect ending, but I would have accepted the Cell saga too.

Alias wrote:Unlike most people, I didn't like the Cell saga much. It was... bland. Trunks was bland. Cell was bland. Most of the characters were bland (Vegeta, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, Goku...) There just wasn't much that I found funny or dramatic other than the very beginning (Trunks saga and interlude) and the very end. It's my least favorite of the Z sagas.

Trunks bland?

Not dramatic?

As you mentioned, Trunks' introduction kicked ass, and I just thought he was an awesome character who possesed both of his parent's underlying better qualties (While Chibi Trunks gained the brash exterior ones), while showing subtle signs of the way he's been affected by coming from a apocalyptic future, without being a drama queen about. While Cell, perhaps not the best villian (Freeza is in my book), was more of a warrior than most of the "Z" era villians, he depended on himself rather than having lackies do things for him, he used his own cunning, with the help of stealth to get the things he needed to do done, and when he finally reached his perfect form, he had a certain laid back arrogance about him, which I thought was cool. And wasn't the entire Cell Games dramatic enough for ya?

I mean, Goku Vs Cell was THE most exciting fight in all of DB, and do I really need to say anything else about SSJ2 Gohan, among the other stuff such as the final Kamehameha clash, Trunks' death thus Vegata's reaction, Goku's sacarfice....

And I just loved the whole time travelling element of the Cell saga, and that we get an alternative world where everyone is wiped out and Earth is on the brink of being extinct

The only thing I have against the Cell saga was that Vegeta was a total asshole in this one, and his constant whining and bitching got on my nerves (although he did somewhat redeem himself with his reaction to Trunks' death).

And there're certain points in the Cell saga where I found that reading the manga, you'll appreciate it more rather than watching the anime where it drags on (well, you can say this about any point of the series really).

For an example, I use to find the whole thing with Cell strivng for his perfect form to be dull, but then I read it in the manga, where obviously the pace is quicker (which benifits greatly) and you'll just enjoy it a whole lot more. It was also the same thing for me with the Saiyan/Freeza sagas too (which is incidentally why I went from Cell being my prefered ending to Freeza).

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sat May 29, 2004 10:34 am

Aside from Alias, are you guys all insane? I mean, sure, it had a bad ending, but you want to be lazy and chop out the Buu saga? The Buu saga was the best one!

For shame.

Jodaku · Post by **Jodaku** » Sat May 29, 2004 10:52 am

In the end, no, I wouldn't shorten the sereis (for some of it's flaws, the Buu saga was still awesome) and it's not about being lazy. It's just that the endng we got was so dissapointing and anti-climatic and that finishing at an earlier point of the series would have wrapped up the whole stroy a whole lot better.

And for the record, like others have said, GT doesn't exits for me, which is why I haven't acknowledge it 'til now.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat May 29, 2004 12:08 pm

I've already said that Cell is where I'd have prefered the ending, but there's something else as well. Ending with Cell would have made movie 9 the last movie. In other words. No movie 10 or 11.

And of course, the one of the best things about being a Fanfic writer... you get to make your own 'perfect ending' which I am working on. Yes indeed. (of course, my perfect ending requires that I re-write the entire series, but that's okay by me.)

Anyway. I'll agree that the Buu Saga had plenty of good points, I for one loved Kid Buu as villian. He seemed far cooler than any of the previous villians IMO. But you could tell that Toriyama-sama was running low on ideas and wanted it to end. Despite my feelings that the Cell Saga ending would have been best, I'd still love to see what he'd have done if he'd have ended it with the Frieza Saga as he'd first intended.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sat May 29, 2004 12:41 pm

Meh.

To be honest, the Freeza saga just wouldn't have set well to me. I would've known even then they could've done so much with it, and Goku dyed because a freaking planet exploded WHILE HE WAS TRYING TO GET AWAY would've been crappy. The Cell Saga, on the other hand, had a bettter ending, which I would've been happy with.

And since I'm an ass, I'm gonna bring in GT. To me, the ending that was definitely a lot more final than Z. I mean, you know Goku was gone and he couldn't just magically come back for whatever reason, and the 100 years later scene clenched that. Speaking of, if also solved another thing -- even without the original heroes, the future will still have some new Saiyans to continue the legend.

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Sat May 29, 2004 1:51 pm

Hmm, lets see...

possible Freeza saga ending: Goku dies in Namek explosion, Freeza survives and is rebuilt by King Kold, they travel to Earth and have an all out war with the Z fighters . They could have one of those continuum shattering endings, ie. Wolf's Rain or Berserk, where all the characters end up dying and are later shown having different lives.

possible Cell saga ending: ending basically the same, end credits show all characters growing up similar to GT's credits.

So basically Goku gets screwed no matter what. I'd kinda preferr my continuum shattering Freeza saga ending.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sat May 29, 2004 3:06 pm

Did you HAVE to spol Wolf's Rain? I haven't seen beyond what Cartoon Network's aired.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat May 29, 2004 3:11 pm

If it ended with Freeza: Namek explosion takes out Goku. He then gets wished back to Earth with the third wish that brought back Yamcha. We're left forever wanting an SSJ Goku vs Vegeta fight. Bleh. It's as bland an ending as not knowing what happens w/Piccolo after the 23rd budoukai. Thanks to the Saiyan saga (his training of Gohan) we know what happens with him, but after the Freeza saga would leave NO sense of closure with Vegeta.

After Cell: works, which is why I'd chose here to end it unless some major changes were made to the Boo saga.

Boo saga: I'd make it so that "Mystic" Gohan were on equal levels with Boo(+Piccolo+SSJ3 Gotenks). Piccolo's wit would match Gohan's, and all their strength could put them at equal terms or have Boo's increase be negligable. We could have Boo's magical body keep the fusion "permanent". This way, the whole "Gohan is most powerful" bit that they've been aluding to since the Radditz battle could come true.