Was Goku supposed to die at the END of the Frieza saga?

[NEG]

Hi there.

Long time DBZ fan, been listening to the podcast after I searched for DBZ for a joke on itunes ("surely they wouldn't exist" I thought "what would they talk about, its not as if it's still on-going"). Not to mention the recent "Remastered Set" was lovely in concept (whole saga, good price, remastered, japanese) so reviews of that had me poking about the net as well.

Anyhow, my question is one that I've been thinking about for years. I've always felt everything that came after the Frieza saga felt tacked on, Toriyama milking it for all its worth while its still hot (although after the recent DB manga review on the podcast, it seems he could have ended it in a happy daisy way even back then).

Cell Saga worked well with only minor things that bugged me, what with everyone gaining SSJ powers, or how Dr Gero could make androids that are stronger then Frieza, let alone SSJ. Not to mention, even though Gohan was always the charecter that showed potential in the series, and the final standoff with Cell being excellent, it was still pretty meh in my mind to the whole Frieza fight.

I'd rant about Buu as well but I won't. I saw that pretty much as a humor saga. Indestructible chewing gum, oh no!

I heard from my friend (big Frieza fan also) that the series was meant to end at the Frieza saga. Perhaps with Goku AND Frieza dying on the planet namek. Frieza would still be defeated the same way, but perhaps right afterwards Namek just goes boom.

It would have been a very touching ending imo. It would have tied up most loose ends pretty well. Goku/Vegeta's fathers have been avenged (along with the saiyen race), Goku as a main charecter learns everything about himself fully, and everyone is safe on earth and the dragon balls have been used.

The most evil tyrant defeated. Goku becomes SSJ in order to defeat him. Goku dies with the planet.

The End

[JAPPO]

I think most people here would agree that Toriyama spent more time on the first 3 seasons (saiyan-freeza), because it was his original intentions to end it with Goku dying with Namek's explosion.

The only proof I have is the "tacked-on" feeling you get when watching the Android and Buu sagas.

[Olivier Hague]

I think most people here would agree that Toriyama spent more time on the first 3 seasons (saiyan-freeza), because it was his original intentions to end it with Goku dying with Namek's explosion.

I don't see why you'd think he intended to end it with Gokû dying specifically...

[Pieter]

Here we go again...

Quotes from Toriyama:

Q: What does the Z in Dragonball Z stand for? (Most of us know that the Z was only used in the anime and it was just an index to separate Goku as a kid and Goku as an adult. But check out the response from Toriyama-san).
A: I was starting to run out of things for Dragonball and I really wanted to finish the series. So I thought that if I put a Z at the end of Dragonball, people would think that it was going to end soon!

Q: I was wondering if you really wanted to end the series where it ended? Do you want to continue to write for the series?
A: I worked on the series for nearly 10 years and I really wanted to end the series at year 3. But... well... Shonen Jump (the original publishers) made me continue the series. But I'm glad the they pushed me to continue it, because I would not have appreciated it as much as I do now. But 10 years is really where my limit is (and he does not want to do it anymore)!

So what's year 3? I believe that's when Z started. He's said in other interviews that originally it was supposed to end after Dragonball too. He also wanted it to end quickly, which is of course after the Namek saga. But we have no idea at what point he decided not to. And I'm not too sure about this but I thought sometime he also said he tried to make Gohan the hero of the show which indicates that he wanted to end it after the Cell Saga.

In other words, pretty much every saga after the 22nd tenkaichi was at some point supposed to be the last and if I'm not mistaken his original intention when starting Dragon Ball was that it was supposed to be a short martial arts promotion.

Guessing what his original ending was is pretty much impossible, because first you'd have to wonder which part of the series you are talking about, and then we don't even know if he had thought up an ending yet or saved it for later as he often does.

It would have been a very touching ending imo. It would have tied up most loose ends pretty well. Goku/Vegeta's fathers have been avenged (along with the saiyen race), Goku as a main charecter learns everything about himself fully, and everyone is safe on earth and the dragon balls have been used.

And Gohan didn't serve any purpose and ended with a bowl cut

[Mystic Jack]

Pretty much what Pieter said, Toriyama effectively was told to keep going by his editors. So that's what he did. Whether or not it was actually meant to end with the Freeza saga I feel is a matter of personal opinion more then anything else. I personally would think it's rushed without the Cell saga and the Buu saga really wasn't neccesary. Though people might not agree with me, that's why it's based on this more then solid fact.

[gohanku]

I think that is correct about Toriyama wanting to end it at Freeza saga, seeing how Goku was going to explode with the planet, you think it was impossible to escape that but Toriyama can even go about his own plotholes.

[Xyex]

According to an inverview I saw the original DB ending was to be after Pilaf. XD The stuff that made the first 13 episodes was all he meant to do. He continued it from there on a dare.

Next ending was Freeza. And yeah, I think Goku was going to end up dead in that ending. And not just him, either. Think about it. The whole wish with Shenron to revive Guru has more of a tacked on feel than the Android or Buu sagas. IMO, only Gohan and Bulma would have escaped Namek and no one would have been revived.

[TheJoo87]

According to an inverview I saw the original DB ending was to be after Pilaf. XD The stuff that made the first 13 episodes was all he meant to do. He continued it from there on a dare.

Yes that's excatly when he originally intended to end it. I believe he mentioned that they were supposed to summon the dragon after getting all the balls and make one single wish, which would conclude the series since the whole plot of the series was still about collecting the balls and finding Shenron.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I think most people here would agree that Toriyama spent more time on the first 3 seasons (saiyan-freeza), because it was his original intentions to end it with Goku dying with Namek's explosion. The only proof I have is the "tacked-on" feeling you get when watching the Android and Buu sagas.

Yeah man. Looking back, personally I think the saiyan-Freeza stuff is the best in the whole trilogy. Even though the Cell Arc had a lot of content as well, it just feels like Toriyama put more effort pre-Trunks but that's just my opinion.

To answer the question, we don't really know for sure. I've heard it was suppose to end with Cell, Freeza, Pilaf, even Jackie Chun. Even if you come up with an interview, there's always going to be people going out of their way to question it, so whatever. IMO, a great ending would be like the end of the second Gokuden which would be basically ending it with Goku returning on his own will.
-Rick

[NEG]

Cheers for the topic move and replies!

So to change the question somewhat, if Goku was meant to die at Namek, how would you go about the ending?
The wish on Namek was never tacked on I feel, it was the whole point of going to Namek in the first place (to revive yamcha tien etc) and I can't remember if Frieza knew about the balls or was told about them, but it pretty soon became his goal as well (the dragon balls).

Perhaps the slight change would have been 1 wish instead of three (or was it two?, haven't seen the saga for a while). With only 1 wish to use, it would have been much more tricky to use. Wish everyone Frieza killed back to earth? Revive friends? Hrm.

Although, heh, you could say it was even more future planning if Toriyama knew he had to bring back the main sub charecters, thus made them go to King Kai for training. If they were not to come back, I doubt he'd have them training.

EDIT: What I do know is, the end of the Frieza Saga just felt perfect-oh.

[Pieter]

The wish on Namek was never tacked on I feel, it was the whole point of going to Namek in the first place (to revive yamcha Tenshinhan etc) and I can't remember if Freeza knew about the balls or was told about them, but it pretty soon became his goal as well (the dragon balls).

He heard over Vegeta/Nappa's scouter, as Vegeta suspects.

Namek was mentioned the same morning Vegeta and Nappa arrived so I don't feel it was tagged on at all, especially since Vegeta and Nappa were mentioned in the second episode of Dbz.

EDIT: What I do know is, the end of the Freeza Saga just felt perfect-oh.

Many people feel this way about the Freeza saga because it's the first saga they were introduced with. In Dragon Ball, the introduction of Piccolo Daimao was also out of nowhere.

I think the tagged-on feeling is also because the Freeza saga was directly linked to the next saga, with Freeza's return, unlike all the other saga's which started out of nowhere.

[Rocketman]

I think the tagged-on feeling is also because the Freeza saga was directly linked to the next saga, with Freeza's return, unlike all the other saga's which started out of nowhere.

Also the loophole from nowhere about reviving the Elder Namek.

[Pieter]

Also the loophole from nowhere about reviving the Elder Namek.

Oh really? As far as I remember that's the only time it's mentioned you can't revive those that died of natural cause.

[NEG]

The wish on Namek was never tacked on I feel, it was the whole point of going to Namek in the first place (to revive yamcha Tenshinhan etc) and I can't remember if Freeza knew about the balls or was told about them, but it pretty soon became his goal as well (the dragon balls).

He heard over Vegeta/Nappa's scouter, as Vegeta suspects.

Namek was mentioned the same morning Vegeta and Nappa arrived so I don't feel it was tagged on at all, especially since Vegeta and Nappa were mentioned in the second episode of Dbz.

EDIT: What I do know is, the end of the Freeza Saga just felt perfect-oh.

Many people feel this way about the Freeza saga because it's the first saga they were introduced with. In Dragon Ball, the introduction of Piccolo Daimao was also out of nowhere.

I think the tagged-on feeling is also because the Freeza saga was directly linked to the next saga, with Freeza's return, unlike all the other saga's which started out of nowhere.

Thought someone else might note this, but the poster who originally said it said the use of the dragon balls on Namek was tagged-on. Not Namek itself, God no.

And for me at least, Frieza to Android/Cell wasn't exactly smooth. Granted Garlic Jr didn't help things, but even if we just use canon it goes from "everything has continued in excellent fashion from the start of DBZ, progressing in more and more knowledge, be it about Goku's race, Vegeta, power levels, unstoppable henchmen on Namek, even more backstory to the main charecter, power levels, evil ruler of galaxy, climax of a battle, Goku fullfilling the myth of SSJ....TO....oh, Frieza lives, but gets sliced up, and Goku lives, now heres these androids that somehow, are more powerful then anything to that point..."

[BrollysKin]

For some reason Mr high and mighty deleted my last comment (dick). I was saying that there is a lot of information about this in other threads. I understand that he wanted to end it at freeza but instead was pushed by the network to do more.

[Olivier Hague]

I understand that he wanted to end it at freeza

Any actual source?

[Xyex]

The wish on Namek was never tacked on I feel, it was the whole point of going to Namek in the first place (to revive yamcha Tenshinhan etc) and I can't remember if Freeza knew about the balls or was told about them, but it pretty soon became his goal as well (the dragon balls).

I'm refering directly to how they revived Guru. And also to Piccolo surviving that blast from Freeza's finger beam. Personally, I think Piccolo was supposed to die there putting an end to the Dragonballs for good. Either that, or the wish would have revived just the Nameks. Either way though, the Z Fighters would have stayed dead.

[Pieter]

I'm refering directly to how they revived Guru. And also to Piccolo surviving that blast from Freeza's finger beam. Personally, I think Piccolo was supposed to die there putting an end to the Dragonballs for good. Either that, or the wish would have revived just the Nameks. Either way though, the Z Fighters would have stayed dead.

That's quite a dark ending for a show that started with bulma hitting Goku with her car.

[Xyex]

That's quite a dark ending for a show that started with bulma hitting Goku with her car.

The show was, and had been, getting darker. From the point of the Red Ribbon army onward. I mean hell, for a while there Guru, and then Piccolo, were the only Nameks left, Freeza (and Vegeta) had killed the rest. Goku was the last (full blooded) Saiya-jin for while. It's not a far stretch for everyone to stay dead.

And, looking beyond that, who says it would have been a purely dark/sad ending? Even wtih Goku's death at the Cell Games it wasn't purely a sad ending. It have been a simple matter to lighten the mood at little. Also, it's fairly common for authors of various things to kill the main character(s) at the end of the story because it puts a definitive end to the story.

Lastly, let's not forget the Android Saga. Trunks Future is even darker than anything before it. Don't forget not only did all the Z fighters die in one future, there's a future out there were even Trunks died.

[Prince Vegeta]

That's quite a dark ending for a show that started with bulma hitting Goku with her car.

Yes,it is.
I think ending it with the Cell saga would have been better.