Losing your calm to become a SSj

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:09 am

It's stated that Goku became a Super Saiyan by losing his calm. I'm trying to determine what it actually means. First, a few things are stated about the subject in Dragonball:

- When Goku finishes his 100.G training on his spaceship, he notes that he is not scared or excited about the strong forces on Namek; he is calm. The narrator then says that "Goku now has the ability to become a Super Saiyan".
- Goku himself says that when he loses his calm and becomes extremely angry, he transforms into a legendary fighter (the SSj). Freeza then says that he understands why Vegeta hasn't been able to turn SSj.
- Later on in the series it is stated that the requirements are a pure heart and a base energy level.

Now, what exactly can be derived from these statements?

From the first statement, we can assume that Goku 'becomes calm' after his 100.G training, whereas before he would be scared and excited. This dual feeling is what all Saiyans feel before a fight. So, must a Saiyan lose this dual feeling before he can turn SSj? Is that the definition of 'calm', and is it linked to the level of power required to turn SSj?

From the second statement, I think that without the calm, you cannot become extremely angry. It's this anger that triggers the transformation. Because Vegeta was always a little on edge, he couldn't experience the contrast between calmness and anger.
Then again, he was never really calm, even before he became a SSj. Perhaps it was the contrast of being utterly confident and hating himself for being weaker than Goku that triggered it, but I'm not sure.

About the pure heart statement, I really don't believe that since Vegeta wasn't pure evil at all IMO. I do know that it's stated several times that being a SSj makes you more selfish and sadistic (Gohan's badassness while SSj 2 is the best example of this). You could say that the SSj corrupts and makes you 'less pure'.
I particularly like this concept because it makes the Super Saiyan something more than just a powerup. It may help you defeat the enemy, but at the same time you have to prevent yourself from becoming evil.

What are your thoughts on these subjects?

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:28 am

I really don't know where the "pure of heart" requirement theory came from, I always just thought Kuririn pulled it out of his ass for a throwaway mention when Vegeta went SSJ in front of everyone for the first time. Vegeta casually mentions it's because he was "pure evil", which I find hard to argue with. I mean the guy was still killing innocent car and truck drivers while battling #18, his time with Bulma during the 3 years of training was more than likely just a combo of sexual tension and training stress than any feeling of love, and he was quite frankly still motivated to find a challenge in the Artificial Humans and defeat Kakarrot at any cost. Hell, did he care if his infant son was about to be killed by Dr. Gero? It was only after spending a year in the Room of Spirit and Time that he even started to let that barrier of evil down, which of course began when Trunks was killed by Cell IMO.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:36 am

Yeah, I'm not saying Vegeta wasn't evil, just not pure evil like the main villains. To me, pure evil means actively seeking to hurt, kill and terrorize people (not necessarily in that order

).

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:39 am

I think Kuririn said pure of heart because Goku did it and his pure of heart, so using his brilliant deduction skills, Kuririn thought that you need to be more like Goku to go Super Saiyan. Vegeta was still an anti-hero then, so he just retorted Kuririn, pure heart theory with the pure evil thing.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:24 am

"I'm the warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage!"

Part of Goku's speech to Freeza after transforming included that line in some form or another. So, that bit first came from Goku.

Post by **TripleRach** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:34 am

I'm tired, so I'm just going to quote some things from my old posts.

Three years ago, I wrote:When Gokuu gives his speech after first becoming SSJ, he uses the phrase odayaka na kokoro (calm/quiet heart).

When Vegeta first becomes SSJ, Kuririn brings up the fact that one needs an odayaka na kokoro to become a SSJ. But Vegeta replies that his heart is odayaka (calm/quiet) and junsui (pure). Then, of course, he adds the famous junsui na aku (pure evil) part.

A year ago, I wrote:Chapter 319:
Freeza: "W-who are you..."
Gokuu: "Don't you already know me!? I'm the Saiya-jin that came here from Earth to defeat you... A legendary warrior awakened by a violent anger, while possessing a calm heart... I'm the Super Saiya-jin, SON Gokuu!!!!!"

Chapter 343:
Kuririn: "T-this can't be...!! How is he a Super Saiya-jin...!! I thought you couldn't become one without a calm heart...!?"
Vegeta: "It was calm. Calm and pure... It was pure evil, though... I wished for nothing but to get strong... And so I fiercely trained over and over... At one point, I realized my own limits... With my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened... As a Super Saiya-jin!!!"

Short version: Vegeta's the one who first claimed the "pure heart" thing. And personally, I think he was probably just trying to sound tough. (Like the time Piccolo yelled at Kuririn and claimed he still wanted to take over the world.)

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:54 am

thought: could "losing your calm" basically equate to "losing your pacifism" -- that is, the desire to end things non-violently? In that all Super Saiya-jins (minus Goten and Chibi Trunks) have something in common.

Maybe SSJ Vegeta's "heart of pure evil" was simply a heart full of rage.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:36 pm

I think that the calm heart is needed to provide a strong contrast with anger. Without the calm heart, the shock from the anger is not great enough to trigger the transformation.

In Goku's case; he had gotten angry before, but never enough to completely overwhelm him (Krillin's first death, Vegeta's victims). Back then, he still had the tumultuous heart of a Saiyan, stirring with excitement for battle. While he was like this, the added anger of said instances did not shock Goku into becoming a Super Saiyan (plus he didn't have the power needed). At some point in his space training, he lost that Saiyan passion and became calm and quiet.
On the other hand, you might argue that Toriyama meant Goku's clean soul with the 'calm and quiet'-line. However, that would leave the first statement about the SSj (see my first post) just floating around.

To Vegeta; he said that his heart was calm when he turned SSj. I, for one, don't really feel this way because it's not like Vegeta to ever be calm - so I would say he experienced the shock of hating himself. To him, it was not the contrast between calmness and anger, but the shock of being utterly selfabsorbed / proud versus hating himself for being weak. This explains why Vegeta couldn't become a Super Saiyan from anger towards an other, like Freeza said.
I agree with TripleRach's explanation of Vegeta's 'pure heart'-line. I'll bet Vegeta felt pretty calm after he achieved his life goals of going SSj and surpassing Goku.

In closing: it is the shock of a conflicting feeling that triggers the SSj, not particularly of calmness versus anger. This way, the transformation is much more dramatic and varied between each character, IMO at least.

I'll come up with explanations for the other Super Saiyans later.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:44 am

Terra-jin, I like this idea; I like it a lot. After all, the rarity of Super Saiya-jins throughout known history (We only know of one before Son Goku) sort of necessitates behavior/make-up uncommon amongst normal Saiya-jins.

Think of all of these spiritual elements -- calm, rage, passion, pride, humility -- as part of a "Saiya-jin Spectrum". Most Saiya-jins are sort of in the middle spectrum, and don't witness its full scope. But you would have to begin in one extreme and then experience its exact opposite to awaken the *full* spectrum of a Saiya-jin ... a Super Saiya-jin.

Son Goku = purity/violent rage
Vegeta = hubris/self-loathing humiliation
Son Gohan=pacifism;dependency/responsible passion

Et cetera, et cetera. Something like that?

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:02 pm

Pretty much. The contrast between two opposite ends of a state-of-mind spectrum is more or less what I meant. It depends on the person which spectrum that is (love-hate, pride-humiliation, etc.).

Gohan actually had two of these experiences; one for turning SSj 1 and one for SSj 2.
The first time, it was something like Gohan's spoiled / weakwilled nature versus the desire to help his friends. I'm not really feeling this one too well. I'll give it some more thought later.
The second time, it was his utter helplessness against Cell hurting his friends, while not finding the way to reach his hidden powers. I'm not really seeing the contrast here either... perhaps it was some kind of extreme despair?

Then we have future Trunks. I'd say sadness about losing Gohan and anger towards the artificial humans, though those aren't really opposites.

And Broly? What did he experience when he first turned SSj? It happened before the movie itself, so it can't be seeing Goku that set him off.

Chibi Trunks and Goten were natural SSj's so they don't count

Do these instances comply with my theory? I don't know yet. They all seem to transform from anger of some kind, but I guess Vegeta's hating himself was a kind of anger, too.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:48 pm

Let's take it down to basics: Vegeta, Goku, and Krillin have no farkin' clue what turns someone into an SSJ. Therefore the pure heart crap was a guess that turned out to be inaccurate.

The anger part makes sense: if you're like Nappa and have a daily anger-level of 8 (arbitrary number for sake of discussion) and reach a level of 10, it's not a big deal and doesn't trigger the change. For Vegeta's daily rage of 3, 10 is a big deal, but just still not enough. Now take Goku who has NO anger, and give him an anger boost of 25. BIG change.

Personally I think it's simply a matter of having surpassed regular Saiyan limits (something Goku does while training en route to Namek. So a PL somewhere between 24,000 and 90,000) and then undergoing what constitutes a personal unnatural amount of rage.

raz1337 · Post by **raz1337** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:06 am

Wow, the dub is so different from the manga. What Vegeta said to Krillin in the dub was completely different.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:49 pm

raz1337 wrote:Wow, the dub is so different from the manga. What Vegeta said to Krillin in the dub was completely different.

Welcome to the real world of Dragonball.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:20 am

Dayspring wrote:Personally I think it's simply a matter of having surpassed regular Saiyan limits (something Goku does while training en route to Namek. So a PL somewhere between 24,000 and 90,000) and then undergoing what constitutes a personal unnatural amount of rage.

It does seem to be like that. I couldn't really account for Gohan and Trunks' going SSj with my emotional contrast theory. However, the nature and 'target' of this anger is different for each character.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:18 pm

Terra-jin wrote:I'm not really seeing the contrast here either... perhaps it was some kind of extreme despair?

Magical power boost of magicalness.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:34 pm

Terra-jin wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Personally I think it's simply a matter of having surpassed regular Saiyan limits (something Goku does while training en route to Namek. So a PL somewhere between 24,000 and 90,000) and then undergoing what constitutes a personal unnatural amount of rage.
It does seem to be like that. I couldn't really account for Gohan and Trunks' going SSj with my emotional contrast theory. However, the nature and 'target' of this anger is different for each character.

Exactly. Note the difficulty it took for Gohan to reach SSJ. He had the strength, but because he frequently loses his cool, most of the time he just gets a PL boost instead of a full change.

With Goten and Trunks, they're so juvenile and pampered that they probably obtained the anger over something stupid. Example:
Goten: "Trunks can fly?! How come everybody can fly but me?! WAAAH!!" **SSJ**
Trunks: "Goten! You turned SSJ! How come everybody but me can do that?! WAAAAAH!!" **SSJ**

Or, they simply asked Gohan + Vegeta how they did it, and in their many sparring or playdates spent a while trying to get angry. Meanwhile they've both been passed the strength minimum for a few years.