Inclusion of Logos (such as CN)

Master Chief · Post by **Master Chief** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:32 am

hm, i actually disagreed with somethings said in the first video but it was funny nevertheless.

In the trailer there's a bit right after the voice says we're prepared to go live to LA. Then you showed the news guy talking; i figured you were trying to time it to the womans voice, but there is a man talking just before the woman, so it seems like the news guy talks both in a male and a female voice

On the whole it was badass, reminds me of my t3-dbz trailer....but wayy better. I especially liked the trunks bit 'save as many as you can'...chilling.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:34 am

Master Chief wrote:hm, i actually disagreed with somethings said in the first video but it was funny nevertheless.

Out of curiosity, what did you disagree with? Everything I noted is common AMV "unspoken golden rule" kinda stuff.

Master Chief · Post by **Master Chief** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:40 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Master Chief wrote:hm, i actually disagreed with somethings said in the first video but it was funny nevertheless.
Out of curiosity, what did you disagree with? Everything I noted is common AMV "unspoken golden rule" kinda stuff.

'What?! Don't be cheap! Buy your DVDs! Plus, it just looks tacky and uprofessional.'

....Does not. I am starting to buy my own dvds but i don't think there's anything wrong with having good footage with a cartoonnetwork logo on it. I'm poor.

'English Dubbed Audio'

I didn't know that about conventions...but if done right i don't think it sounds tacky at all; also you CAN "tell your own story in your video" while still using English dubbed audio, just have to use it carefully is all.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:06 am

Of course, it's always your own decision (as the editor) to include or disclude certain things. Let me explain the reasoning (not just my own; more of a mutual agreement among editors over the years) as to why the things mentioned were mentioned.

Master Chief wrote:'What?! Don't be cheap! Buy your DVDs! Plus, it just looks tacky and uprofessional.'

....Does not. I am starting to buy my own dvds but i don't think there's anything wrong with having good footage with a cartoonnetwork logo on it. I'm poor.

Do you honestly believe it doesn't matter? Really? Put two videos next to each other. The exact same video. Same visual/audio quality, same cuts, same everything. One has a Cartoon Network logo on it, the other doesn't. Which are you going to take more seriously?

When I first played the video at the panel, I played a version without any of the textual explanations. The instant the CN logo was on the screen, people started laughing. Now, you could argue they were laughing because the video, as a whole, was presented in a humorous fashion.

But they laughed. Which means they noticed it, and noticed it was out of place.

When we edit AMVs, we're taking two things that were absolutely never meant to go with each other, and smashing them together. This audio was NEVER intended to go with this video footage. What we need to overcome, as editors, is that situation. We need to make it look like this audio and this video are destined to be together in such a fit that it's 100% natural.

Anything you include (or disclude) that makes your viewers realize/remember that "Oh, wait... this is just some person's video... these weren't meant to go together," is hurting you. It may be on an extremely subconscious level, but they're going to notice. They're going to see that logo on the screen, wonder what's up, and perhaps move on and go back to the video. But you've lost them. You lost that hold you were trying to keep on them, and most importantly, you may have caused them to miss something extremely essential to your narrative flow.

The last thing you want to do is lose your viewer. Anything that you can do to OVERCOME this loss is almost essential. Besides, if you're not going to put that extra UMFPH of effort into to the editing of the video, why should the viewer put in the same amount into watching the video?

Master Chief wrote:'English Dubbed Audio'

I didn't know that about conventions...but if done right i don't think it sounds tacky at all; also you CAN "tell your own story in your video" while still using English dubbed audio, just have to use it carefully is all.

Again, it's up to the editor, in the end... but honestly, what does it accomplish? To tell the same story as the anime through the actual, original dialogue isn't accomplishing anything new; the anime has already told that story. The greatest achievement we can make with AMVs is to tell some kind of new story or analyization that has not already been made. I have yet to see any video whose inclusion of dubbed audio has added to their own story, be it original or even just a re-telling of the show.

It just sounds tacky.

Not to mention the fact that most conventions won't even accept the video into their contest. Conventions run a very fine line in the playing of AMVs; here are these two copyrighted items playing at the same time, on a large screen, in front of hundreds/thousands of people. The last thing they need is to have some kind of legal issues. Many conventions pay the RIAA a fee ahead of time to cover the public broadcast of the music. But voice performances are another issue. Many anime cons have English voice guests. What would these people think if they were to hear their licensed performances being used in such a way? Flattery? Would they be upset? It's a tough call. In order to not have to deal with such a potential situation, most cons simply disqualify videos with dubbed audio; I had to do so with a video for AnimeNext, actually. In fact, it was an Inu-Yasha video... Richard Cox was one of the big guests at the con. Potential situation, there. We just can't play those things.

At least with the anime footage it's originally created out of the country, and for the time being, domestic licensing companies have turned a blind eye. Really don't want to get into situations with voice actor unions.

Hopefully that all makes a little more sense, now ^^.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:02 am

I never notice the existance of logos. Logos don't mean jack. If a logo is enough to distract you from a video than removing the logo wont make it any better. There's no difference. I mean, if logos distract you from AMV's then you should quit watching AMV's in general, and TV for that mater. It's just pointless to go out of your way to not have logos. Logo, no logo, who the hell cares?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:05 am

Xyex wrote:I never notice the existance of logos. Logos don't mean jack. If a logo is enough to distract you from a video than removing the logo wont make it any better. There's no difference. I mean, if logos distract you from AMV's then you should quit watching AMV's in general, and TV for that mater. It's just pointless to go out of your way to not have logos. Logo, no logo, who the hell cares?

It really is your decision. Go for it, and include them. If you as the editor feel that it does not detract from your video, so be it. I have no recourse to tell you differently.

But I wouldn't want to be the person who has logos in their video, submits to a con, and has the entire audience start scoffing and laughing when the logo appears on the screen ^^;;. My heart sinks for the editors every time it happens.

And it happens. A lot.

Meri · Post by **Meri** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:11 am

Logos really do make a difference. Seriously. Everyone laughs at them, be it in cons, or a group of friends watching AMVs at home. It's just... eww. I'm not gonna get into as much detail as VegettoEX, but we don't make this stuff up for the hell of it. It happens, and it happens A LOT, and when it does, the audience reaction is never positive.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:12 am

If I was there, even if it wasn't my video, and start laughing at everyone else for being idiots.

I don't know, something like that just strikes me as having a "Superior than thou" attitude and I HATE those.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:18 am

Xyex wrote:If I was there, even if it wasn't my video, and start laughing at everyone else for being idiots. I don't know, something like that just strikes me as having a "Superior than thou" attitude and I HATE those.

I'm not saying one video is inherently "better" than another simply due to the inclusion of a logo. I'll use the same analogy as before, though...

Take two videos. The exact same two videos. Same visual quality. Same audio quality. Exact same cuts, edits, transitions, effects. Same darn thing.

One has a Cartoon Network logo.

Which one would you rather watch?

If you're not really serious into the hobby, sure... do whatever the bloody Hell floats your boat! I have absolutely no problem telling people to make a DBZ video to a Linkin Park song with Windows Movie Maker. Do it. Have a blast. I say this exact same thing at every panel I've ever been on, and will continue to do so.

The instant you send it somewhere or show it to other people, though, you need to start considering an audience. Sure, you're making it for yourself first and foremost (hopefully)... but what about them? They're the ones you're forcing (literally or figuratively) to watch the darn thing. Wouldn't you want to go that extra mile to make sure it's as enjoyable as it could be?

Logos are distracting. You don't want to distract your viewers. You want to totally, completely, 100% engulf them with your storytelling. Anything you do that detracts from that... you've got working against you.

Meri · Post by **Meri** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:25 am

Xyex wrote:If I was there, even if it wasn't my video, and start laughing at everyone else for being idiots. I don't know, something like that just strikes me as having a "Superior than thou" attitude and I HATE those.

It's not about being "holier than thou"; it's about presenting your own work in the best possible quality you can. Your video's quality is a reflection of how far you're willing to go to put effort into your work. However, if a video is GOOD *regardless* of the source footage, then more power to it! As long as a video tells a good story or is entertaining, that's all that matters. However, logo-less videos allow editors to display a tiny bit more quality, which in turn translates into effort.

People notice when you (a general "you," not YOU "you") put the effort into getting the cleanest footage possible, and it makes you look more professional. TV logos gives audience the subconscious reminder of "oh, he got this from TV (or downloaded an episode that was captured from a TV broadcast).

Don't get me wrong, if it's the ONLY footage you have to work with, then you deal with it, and know what you're getting in to. People are MORE than welcome to do whatever the hell they want. Just keep in mind the audience (be it online or at a con) WILL notice something "wrong" on some level or another, and as a result, will think less of your video's visual (and narrative?) quality.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:27 am

Hell, knowing me I'd make a video with a logo just so I could get that reaction out of them. I like ignoring 'rules of thumb' like that, just to because I can.

Eh, maybe it's just me, but like I said, I've never noticed logos before. Unless, of course, it shifts between having one and not. That, I will agree, looks bad.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:30 am

Xyex wrote:Hell, knowing me I'd make a video with a logo just so I could get that reaction out of them. I like ignoring 'rules of thumb' like that, just to because I can. Eh, maybe it's just me, but like I said, I've never noticed logos before. Unless, of course, it shifts between having one and not. That, I will agree, looks bad.

Such is true. When a video shifts back and forth, that's a bigger problem than simply having it all the way through.

But like Meri said, yeah... the audience sees the logo and starts thinking about WHERE you got the footage, and that in turns leads to thoughts about "quality" and "level of effort." You really don't want your audience thinking you didn't put any effort into it just because of a silly logo, especially when it's so easy these days to not have it (anything that's on CN is generally out on disc already).

Master Chief · Post by **Master Chief** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:54 pm

Do you honestly believe it doesn't matter? Really?

Through and through. I think Danny's 'my resolution' video is a perfect example. Watching the video I wouldn't even notice the CN logo unless someone was constantly reminding me of it you simply don't if the video is good enough for the viewer to immerse them self in.

I think that stance definitely has a slight air of elitism to it but I can accept it; by that I mean I can understand where it's coming from I imagine a logo will be more noticeable in a video being played on a big screen at a con, although from what you’ve said I’m getting that con mentality is against the video, big screen or not. To laugh at the video because of it is beyond me (0.0) I was pretty blown away when I read that people do that at cons. Lame, and unreasonably judgmental I think.

I feel stronger about the ‘English dubbed audio bad’ point of view though. I’m going to use Danny’s ‘my resolution’ video as an example for this as well. I personally thought the audio added more feeling to the video. The points he used audio at wouldn’t have had the same effect without them but it’s fine to say it adds nothing to a new story, hell I’d probably agree with you there but I don’t think most people who use it, use it to help create a new story, I believe it is used to reinforce a theme, which the creator is trying to get across and there is nothing that will do this better.

The greatest achievement we can make with AMVs is to tell some kind of new story or analyization that has not already been made.

Alright. I actually believe the greatest achievement we can make with AMVs is to strike an emotion, what ever that may be, in the viewer, I think it’s far more important than, at the end of a video someone thinking “ohh wow, he made it seem like cell beat Gohan, neat” or “hmm the root of goku’s power is indeed his desire to protect his loved ones. Swell”. There's no feeling in that, it should be "wow, the root of goku's power is indeed his desire to protect his love ones. I feel so much respect for Goku right now".

Danny’s video makes me feel googly inside, makes me appreciate how much Goku loves Gohan and vice versa, it's nothing new, i'm aware of that, i realised that while i watching the show, and i still know this throughout my viewing of the video but i like the fact that at the end of the video, i do feel googly even though it's a story i already knew. That's something that the video itself made me feel, and i think that is what's most improtant.

I have yet to see any video whose inclusion of dubbed audio has added to their own story, be it original or even just a re-telling of the show.

I'm taking that as a challenge.

The legal part of the argument, is more than valid but that wasn’t really the part I disagreed with.

But I wouldn't want to be the person who has logos in their video, submits to a con, and has the entire audience start scoffing and laughing when the logo appears on the screen ^^;;.

Pft..I personally think such an audience are to close minded for me to care what they think about a video I created or anything else for that matter…

EDIT - Mini essay -_-;;

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:03 pm

Xyex wrote:Hell, knowing me I'd make a video with a logo just so I could get that reaction out of them. I like ignoring 'rules of thumb' like that, just to because I can.

Not being nasty, but isn't that a bit of a "teenager" sort of attitude? Ignoring rules just "because you can"? What does that accomplish?

It's true that truelly great artists break rules left right and centre. But they know those guildlines forwards, backwards and sideways. You should only break rules after you've learnt how to use them. People thinking "oh, those guildines are good for others, but MY project is different, and doesn't need them" is what causes 50 billion fanfics out there involving self-insertion characters who turn to Super Saiyan 52 and who end up being stronger than everyone until they fuse with everyone and become even stronger and then a decendent/clone/parallel universe version of Freeza/Cell come back and things blow up. Or Rowdyruff Boy fanfics. Or DBZ action videos involving Linkin Park.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:13 pm

Master Chief wrote:I think that stance definitely has a slight air of elitism to it but I can accept it; by that I mean I can understand where it's coming from I imagine a logo will be more noticeable in a video being played on a big screen at a con, although from what you’ve said I’m getting that con mentality is against the video, big screen or not. To laugh at the video because of it is beyond me (0.0) I was pretty blown away when I read that people do that at cons. Lame, and unreasonably judgmental I think.

Yeah, it certainly does have an air of elitism to it... but I think it has some substance to it, especially if you can understand where it's coming from.

I'm flabbergasted that people think it's strange that people would laugh at a logo appearing on-screen. It doesn't belong there... by that, I mean... you're watching an AMV at a convention (or on your computer, for that matter). You're not watching Cartoon Network... why should you, the viewer, be reminded that the footage originally came from there?

Keep in mind it's not always solely about the logo. Those who use CN footage are generally those downloading the footage from the 'net. Which means they're eventually re-compressing a file that's already massively resized and compressed for online distro. And it's going to look like crap.

But really... the logo just doesn't belong there. There's essentially no excuse, these days, for having some kind of TV logo in your AMVs. There's very little on television that doesn't already have some sort of VHS or DVD release. That also brings into play another related topic... you're not going to die if you don't make the video right away. Wait it out for the DVD release, if it isn't out yet. This thread over on AMVorg recently debated the very topic (mostly concerning material not yet available). I think Sarah nails it pretty damn perfectly.

SarahtheBoring wrote:Or you could make a video without it.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, nothing personal. I just have to laugh at people who think getting the footage they want is an ESSENTIAL NEED, like water and oxygen.

It's... far too true. I mean, sure it's a little harsh... but it's absolutely true, especially if you want to do something like submit the video to a convention.

Master Chief wrote:I feel stronger about the ‘English dubbed audio bad’ point of view though. I’m going to use Danny’s ‘my resolution’ video as an example for this as well. I personally thought the audio added more feeling to the video. The points he used audio at wouldn’t have had the same effect without them but it’s fine to say it adds nothing to a new story, hell I’d probably agree with you there but I don’t think most people who use it, use it to help create a new story, I believe it is used to reinforce a theme, which the creator is trying to get across and there is nothing that will do this better.

Some parts of the video it adds to, and some it does not. I'm at work and thus don't have the video right in front of me, but there were quite a few cases where I was just like, "Umm... what?" in regards to some of the dialogue (especially when I couldn't perfectly make out what was being said, due to poor dialogue/song audio mixing).

There was the one scene where it's really close up on Goku's face as he's about to use Shunkan Ido and go off to Kaio's... but that was lip-synched, and not dialogue from the original. THAT I felt added to the scene. So I guess I'm talking about something entirely different. Where am I?

I'm not saying I'm like this, but you also bring in the dubbie elitism kinda thing when you use dubbed audio. "That loser watches the dub?! HAH!"-kinda shiznit. Again, if you're going to go to the effort of submitting to a con, remember your audience.

Master Chief wrote:I'm taking that as a challenge.

The legal part of the argument, is more than valid but that wasn’t really the part I disagreed with.

Hehehe... OK, go for it! Make a video where the dubbed audio adds to the atmosphere, and I'll give you a cookie!

Master Chief wrote:Pft..I personally think such an audience are to close minded for me to care what they think about a video I created or anything else for that matter…

I don't really believe it's closed-minded... in fact, I feel it's extremely honest of them in a reality kinda way. Like I've said before time and time again... anything you have that possibly distracts the viewers from your narrative flow is working against you.

Of course, this entire discussion is assuming you're getting serious about the hobby, especially to the point of submitting to a convention's contest. You're more than welcome to do whatever you want to get your kicks, but it's a whole different wake-up-call at a convention...

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:48 pm

These logos that we're talking about, do you mean logos that were on the TV screen if you took the footage from there? Or do you mean people intentionally placing logos to point out where they got their visuals?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:49 pm

Dayspring wrote:These logos that we're talking about, do you mean logos that were on the TV screen if you took the footage from there? Or do you mean people intentionally placing logos to point out where they got their visuals?

The actual Cartoon Network logo. From television. Not something you place on there, yourself.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:06 pm

Oh...then who cares as long as it's consistant? By which I mean either always there or always not there. Would you rather the person replace the scene with footage that doesn't belong in the least simply because his alternative has a logo?

And yes I prefer no logo. I just don't see where this sudden anti-christ passion is coming from concerning people who use logos. It's annoying if it's there, but annoying at most.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:09 pm

Dayspring wrote:I just don't see where this sudden anti-christ passion is coming from concerning people who use logos. It's annoying if it's there, but annoying at most.

There's no sudden anti-christ movement

. It's just a discussion that occurred in response to my including a mention of it in my AnimeNext 2004 AMV Panel video. Split these posts from that other thread, since it became its own discussion.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:30 pm

VegettoEX wrote:There was the one scene where it's really close up on Goku's face as he's about to use Shunkan Ido and go off to Kaio's... but that was lip-synched, and not dialogue from the original. THAT I felt added to the scene. So I guess I'm talking about something entirely different. Where am I?

Just in case you care, here's the spoken stuff:

Gohan screaming "Daddy", lip-synched and from the original. I don't mind it, but I there's a similar bit at the end with Gohan screaming and no dialogue, and I think that comes off much more effectively.

Gohan saying "It's alright, I can feel him Mom...he's there". I see what he's trying to do, since it occurs just before the song says "I'm already there". But it's not mixed too well, and thus isn't really clear. Plus, it's a bit too many words over the lyrics, and which causes both of them to get muddled.

Gohan saying "Dad? Where are you?" while looking around for him. Strangely, I think this doesn't really work for the opposite reason to the one above...there's too little dialogue. It comes out of nowhere, and then is gone again, leaving you thinking "huh?" Plus, there's a big gap in it, and it happens as the song is going into the bridge-variation bit, and I think the dialogue slightly takes away from that.

I have to note the part where Gohan and Goku's ghost are firing the Super Kamehameha while just the piano is accompanying the singer. I love that bit.

And the bit I think Mike is talking about...Goku saying "Gohan...I'm so proud of you" just before he teleports away with Cell. It's not lip-synched, unlike all the other spoken stuff. And I really, really love that bit. Love it. Gives me the shivers, and even makes me want to cry, just a little bit. I have no idea where that piece of dialogue is actually from, but it works great there. The singer is just singing an extended "there", so the spoken words don't clash with it. And Schemmel delivers it really well, too. Followed up by Gohan's silent scream, it's just...great.

And after reading this thread, I've suddenly become very, very aware of the appearing and disappearing CN logo in this video. Damn you all. Still, at least it's fairly transparent and doesn't jump about the place.

Kanzenshuu

Inclusion of Logos (such as CN)

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