Are the Saiya-jin stronger than Piccolo in their base forms?

[James R. Cadwell]

I didn't think so until recently, but after browsing through some manga chapters and re-watching episodes, it seems like there's evidence that Piccolo is weaker than Goku, Gohan and Vegeta in their base forms.

When Cell and Gohan are locked in their Kamehameha duel, Vegeta is able to briefly stun Cell with an energy blast, giving Gohan the opportunity to overwhelm him. Vegeta looks like he's in his normal form when this happens. Piccolo couldn't do a thing to help Gohan.

In the Buu Saga, Babidi and Dabura sense the good guys hiding behind some rocks. Babidi says Kaioshin and Kibito's energy can't be used for their purposes, but three of the people have lots of energy. Dabura eliminates Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo, then lures the Saiya-jin and Kaioshin into Babidi's ship. This suggests to me that all three of the Saiya-jin present were stronger than Piccolo in their base forms.

[Neon Z]

I've always believed that to be true after watching Dabura's scene. But only now I think about Base Vegeta VS Perfect Cell... and it makes sense...

So... Piccolo was outdated in Cell Saga? So much for the "Super Namek"...

[Dayspring]

When Cell and Gohan are locked in their Kamehameha duel, Vegeta is able to briefly stun Cell with an energy blast, giving Gohan the opportunity to overwhelm him. Vegeta looks like he's in his normal form when this happens. Piccolo couldn't do a thing to help Gohan.

The Piccolo part here was filler so we can still assume that he's stronger than base Vegeta.

In the Buu Saga, Babidi and Dabura sense the good guys hiding behind some rocks. Babidi says Kaioshin and Kibito's energy can't be used for their purposes, but three of the people have lots of energy. Dabura eliminates Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo, then lures the Saiya-jin and Kaioshin into Babidi's ship. This suggests to me that all three of the Saiya-jin present were stronger than Piccolo in their base forms.

The top 3 in the universe at this point are Gohan, Vegeta and Goku. It's possible that, because Gohan stopped training for 7 years, that Piccolo's PL is now "00ber powerful" whereas Gohan is just "00ber powerful+2". It's also possible that Dabura+Babidi's ability to sense ki is so fine-tuned (like Krillin's) that they could sense their SSJ strengths.

[James R. Cadwell]

The Piccolo part here was filler so we can still assume that he's stronger than base Vegeta.

It isn't filler that Piccolo couldn't do anything to help -- he didn't do anything to help in the manga. He turns to run and is blown away by the energy from the struggle.

The top 3 in the universe at this point are Gohan, Vegeta and Goku. It's possible that, because Gohan stopped training for 7 years, that Piccolo's PL is now "00ber powerful" whereas Gohan is just "00ber powerful+2".

Babidi said that only three of the people present (excluding Kaioshin and Kibito) had great energy. Piccolo must have been nowhere near any of the base form Saiya-jin, otherwise Babidi would have specified that there were four with lots of power.

It's also possible that Dabura+Babidi's ability to sense ki is so fine-tuned (like Krillin's) that they could sense their SSJ strengths.

Yeah, but Babidi and Dabura are impressed by Goku's power when he actually does transform into an SSJ -- so it's not like he appeared to have that level of power all along.

[Xyex]

I'll never believe that a Saiya-jin in base could surpass Piccolo after his merger with Kami. After this Piccolo is able to stand up to Imperfect Cell, something none of the current Super Saiya-jins could do. Seriously, a Saiya-jin in base would never be able to do that.

As for the Babidi/Dabura scene, they were all supressing their KI. I've no doubt Piccolo's more skilled at that than any of the others making him seem weaker. Hell, IMO, Buu Saga Piccolo would have been AT LEAST as powerful as Perfect Cell. Not as strong as Super Perfect I don't think, but at least Perfect.

That would mean that the Saiya-jins in base would have needed to be stronger than Cell while in base and, as I've said before, not even Goku isn't that good. I doubt, while in base, that he'd even have been as strong as Frieza by the end of Z. Close enough to win probably, but not stronger.

And remember, Gohan didn't train for the last seven years. How then would he be stronger than Piccolo while in his base form if he wasn't during the Cell Games? No, the Saiya-jins are only stronger than Piccolo while in SSJ. In Gohan's case I think it may even take the second level for him to pass Piccolo because of his slacking.

[James R. Cadwell]

I'll never believe that a Saiya-jin in base could surpass Piccolo after his merger with Kami. After this Piccolo is able to stand up to Imperfect Cell, something none of the current Super Saiya-jins could do. Seriously, a Saiya-jin in base would never be able to do that.

That's kind of ignoring the evidence, though. Base Vegeta can stun Perfect Cell with an energy blast. Piccolo can't even remain standing.

As for the Babidi/Dabura scene, they were all supressing their KI. I've no doubt Piccolo's more skilled at that than any of the others making him seem weaker.

They were all suppressing their "ki", and they all failed to conceal their energy from Babidi and Dabura. Those two could see right through that "ki" suppression trick.

I doubt, while in base, that he'd even have been as strong as Freeza by the end of Z. Close enough to win probably, but not stronger.

This is insane. Kaioshin could kill Freeza with a single attack and thought it would be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui. Vegeta blew Pui-Pui away effortlessly without using SSJ.

Also, Goku's base power increases by over 700 times between the beginning of the Saiya-jin Saga and the end of the Freeza Saga. A little over a year. You're suggesting that post-Freeza Saga Goku can't even increase his power by 40 times over a decade? Your thinking just isn't consistant with what is shown in the series.

And remember, Gohan didn't train for the last seven years. How then would he be stronger than Piccolo while in his base form if he wasn't during the Cell Games?

His normal form was probably much stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games. I think you might be underestimating just how powerful Goku and Gohan were after emerging from the RoSaT.

No, the Saiya-jins are only stronger than Piccolo while in SSJ. In Gohan's case I think it may even take the second level for him to pass Piccolo because of his slacking.

Vegeta and Gohan both planned to use their normal forms when they fought #18 and Piccolo at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Did Vegeta and Gohan enter the tournament specifically to lose?

No offense, but I don't really see any compelling evidence that Piccolo is stronger than the Saiya-jin in their normal forms -- what I see are assumptions. Piccolo is my favorite character, so I'd be more than happy if someone had something that proved Piccolo could beat the crap out of normal Vegeta and Goku.

[TripleRach]

Babidi and Darbura saw Piccolo as a weakling in comparison to the three Saiya-jin, and yet they were still shocked at how easily Vegeta defeated Puipui. From this, we could gather that they saw Piccolo as even less capable of facing Puipui, while Piccolo was about even with #17. #17 is supposed to be stronger than #18, who wiped the floor with SSJ Vegeta. So, in other words:

Buu Saga Base Vegeta > Puipui > Piccolo = #17 > #18 > Cell Saga SSJ Vegeta

For any of that to make sense, Vegeta would've had to have greatly increased his base power in all that time. This sort of supports my own belief that the forms of SSJ are a multiplicative factor of your base power, and not just a set power level you achieve.

[Xyex]

I'll never believe that a Saiya-jin in base could surpass Piccolo after his merger with Kami. After this Piccolo is able to stand up to Imperfect Cell, something none of the current Super Saiya-jins could do. Seriously, a Saiya-jin in base would never be able to do that.

That's kind of ignoring the evidence, though. Base Vegeta can stun Perfect Cell with an energy blast. Piccolo can't even remain standing.

Are we sure it's base Vegeta? I couldn't really tell in the Anime, and besides, even if it was base Vegeta it was a sneak attack. Cell hadn't expected it, and he wasn't stunned. He was caught off guard, major difference. Hell, even Hercule could have distracted Cell in some fashion. This is no evidence of power.

As for the Babidi/Dabura scene, they were all supressing their KI. I've no doubt Piccolo's more skilled at that than any of the others making him seem weaker.

They were all suppressing their "ki", and they all failed to conceal their energy from Babidi and Dabura. Those two could see right through that "ki" suppression trick.

Well, seeing as Goku and Co. were the ONLY life out there other than maybe a few bugs they'd stick out like sore thumbs. And, as I said, Piccolo seems more skilled than the others and could probably hold his ki lower. Or they could have been sensed before landing and before most of them lowered their ki. Vegeta dosen't strike me as the type to supress his energy unless it's need for strategic advantage while the others seem to do it all the time only using what they need when they need it.

I doubt, while in base, that he'd even have been as strong as Freeza by the end of Z. Close enough to win probably, but not stronger.

This is insane. Kaioshin could kill Freeza with a single attack and thought it would be necessary to gang-up against Pui-Pui. Vegeta blew Pui-Pui away effortlessly without using SSJ.

Also, Goku's base power increases by over 700 times between the beginning of the Saiya-jin Saga and the end of the Freeza Saga. A little over a year. You're suggesting that post-Freeza Saga Goku can't even increase his power by 40 times over a decade? Your thinking just isn't consistant with what is shown in the series.

*Sigh* That all just looks bad. Yeah, Goku went from around 400 to 300,000 quickly. Very quickly. But he seriously abused the Saiya-jin power boost. Dieing, for one. Nearly dieing against Vegeta. Getting his body stolen by Ginyu. What's more, his power was LOWER then too.

Seriously, consider this. You have a power of 1,000. You train for a year and have a new power of 2,000. So what now? The same training will yeild double the results simply becuase you're stronger? Sorry, but no. You gain LESS benefit from the same thing as you gain in power (hence the increases in gravity levels by both Goku and Vegeta).

This would mean that they would gain strength at a slower rate as they became stronger, not a faster rate. Otherwise, why the hell are all the people in the universe so much damn weaker than Goku and the others? Especially the Saiya-jins. Wouldn't they all be in the several hundred millions by the time Frieza first came along under your logic?

By the end of Z Goku would probably somewhere from 7 to 10 million at the most in his base form. (Still beyond powerful as an SSJ let alone the other levels.) Just because he jumped from 400 to 300,000 so quickly once does not set the standard, or have you forgotten DB? Think about the amount of power that is. Don't compare %'s, compare actuall NUMBERS.

And remember, Gohan didn't train for the last seven years. How then would he be stronger than Piccolo while in his base form if he wasn't during the Cell Games?

His normal form was probably much stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games. I think you might be underestimating just how powerful Goku and Gohan were after emerging from the RoSaT.

You're giving Goku and Gohan FAR to much credit. There's NO WAY IN HELL either of them is that strong. You're giving them an increse of not 700 but well over a thousand. They trained, yes, but they always train. Especially Goku. And Piccolo trained as well and he's always been able to keep pretty even with Goku. He didn't start to really fall behind until the Saiya-jin Saga but Goku got abnormal training. If he'd not trained with King Kai he'd not have been much stronger than Piccolo IMO.

You have to consider that Goku trains hard but not hard enough to gain any power boosts from his training. Not when he knows his limits. He over did it a few times on the way to Namek but that was because it was a new experience, training in the increaseing gravities. He wouldn't nearly kill himself, or Gohan, while training. Even in the RoSaT.

No, the Saiya-jins are only stronger than Piccolo while in SSJ. In Gohan's case I think it may even take the second level for him to pass Piccolo because of his slacking.

Vegeta and Gohan both planned to use their normal forms when they fought #18 and Piccolo at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Did Vegeta and Gohan enter the tournament specifically to lose?

Gohan planned to use his normal form, yes, but I seriously doubt Vegeta would have cared. And did they even know 18 was entering ahead of time? Besides that, Krillin entered. Do you think he'd have even given it a shot if Goku's base power was beyond that of Cell?

Babidi and Darbura saw Piccolo as a weakling in comparison to the three Saiya-jin, and yet they were still shocked at how easily Vegeta defeated Puipui. From this, we could gather that they saw Piccolo as even less capable of facing Puipui, while Piccolo was about even with #17. #17 is supposed to be stronger than #18, who wiped the floor with SSJ Vegeta. So, in other words:

Buu Saga Base Vegeta > Puipui > Piccolo = #17 > #18 > Cell Saga SSJ Vegeta

For any of that to make sense, Vegeta would've had to have greatly increased his base power in all that time. This sort of supports my own belief that the forms of SSJ are a multiplicative factor of your base power, and not just a set power level you achieve.

Let's look at Rach's little 'chart' there, shall we? Think about that for a moment. Vegeta's base power in the Buu Saga would have to be higher than his SSJ power during the Cell Saga. I'm going to make a chart like Rach's here to show you something about what you're saying.

Dabura > Super Perfect Cell > Buu Saga Base Vegeta > Pui Pui > Supreme Kai > Buu Saga Kamicolo > 17 > 18 > Cell Saga SSJ Vegeta.

Can't you see the problems with all of that? Here, I'll add the others bassed off the 'evidence' from the show (as stated / displayed).

SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu > Vegetto > Super Buu 3 > Super Buu 2 > Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Fat Buu > Dabura > Super Perfect Cell > 'Adult' SSJ2 Gohan > Pui Pui > Supreme Kai > Buu Saga Kamicolo > Cell Saga Kamicolo > Cell Saga SSJ Vegeta > Android Saga Piccolo > Android 20.

[Neon Z]

Are we sure it's base Vegeta? I couldn't really tell in the Anime, and besides, even if it was base Vegeta it was a sneak attack. Cell hadn't expected it, and he wasn't stunned. He was caught off guard, major difference. Hell, even Mr. Satan could have distracted Cell in some fashion. This is no evidence of power.

You're missing his point. Piccolo couldn't even approach Cell, while base Vegeta could even bother him with one of his attacks.

*Sigh* That all just looks bad. Yeah, Goku went from around 400 to 300,000 quickly. Very quickly. But he seriously abused the Saiya-jin power boost. Dieing, for one. Nearly dieing against Vegeta. Getting his body stolen by Ginyu. What's more, his power was LOWER then too.

Dying has never been stated to give power to a Sayan. It's a near death power up.

Seriously, consider this. You have a power of 1,000. You train for a year and have a new power of 2,000. So what now? The same training will yeild double the results simply becuase you're stronger? Sorry, but no. You gain LESS benefit from the same thing as you gain in power (hence the increases in gravity levels by both Goku and Vegeta).

Huh... no. Goku and Vegeta amplified the gravity because they wanted "bigger" boosts. Proof that the same training will have a better effect on stronger people? Goku's training with Karin VS Human's training with Karin. Goku's training with Kami VS Human's training with Kami.

You're giving Goku and Gohan FAR to much credit. There's NO WAY IN HELL either of them is that strong. You're giving them an increse of not 700 but well over a thousand. They trained, yes, but they always train. Especially Goku. And Piccolo trained as well and he's always been able to keep pretty even with Goku. He didn't start to really fall behind until the Saiya-jin Saga but Goku got abnormal training. If he'd not trained with King Kai he'd not have been much stronger than Piccolo IMO.

That's explains Piccolo's strongest blast at the end of DB barely scratching Goku, right? No. Piccolo was aways behind him, and only catch up, barely, during the Sayan Saga, and Android Saga(Kuririn compare's Piccolo's strengh(before fusing) to the Super Sayan's).

Also, you're assuming that Piccolo trained, that was never stated, one way or the other. In my opnion, he'd, at least, keep his power, but I don't know if he would train too hard. Every other time he trained, he had an objective besides getting stronger(protect Earth, or conquer Earth), by the end of Cell Saga, Piccolo had no reason to train.

[James R. Cadwell]

Are we sure it's base Vegeta? I couldn't really tell in the Anime, and besides, even if it was base Vegeta it was a sneak attack. Cell hadn't expected it, and he wasn't stunned. He was caught off guard, major difference. Hell, even Mr. Satan could have distracted Cell in some fashion. This is no evidence of power.

So why didn't anyone else help Gohan? Either:

(A): Nobody cares about Gohan besides Vegeta.

(B): Nobody had enough power to help besides Vegeta.

Remember that Piccolo was in the process of running away when Vegeta interceded on Gohan's behalf. Piccolo couldn't even tolerate the energy radiating from the Kamehameha struggle. Base Vegeta could get fairly close and hit Perfect Cell with enough energy to move his head and briefly distract him.

Well, seeing as Goku and Co. were the ONLY life out there other than maybe a few bugs they'd stick out like sore thumbs. And, as I said, Piccolo seems more skilled than the others and could probably hold his ki lower.

My point is that it doesn't matter how much lower Piccolo's power was -- Babidi and Dabura saw through the "ki" suppression technique. Goku and the others felt that they would be undetectable, but they weren't -- the bad guys knew exactly how many people were present, specifically identified the ones they were familiar with, and even knew that the Saiya-jin had tons of energy.

Seriously, consider this. You have a power of 1,000. You train for a year and have a new power of 2,000. So what now? The same training will yeild double the results simply becuase you're stronger? Sorry, but no. You gain LESS benefit from the same thing as you gain in power (hence the increases in gravity levels by both Goku and Vegeta).

That's not true. When Goku trained with Kami, his power increased by significantly less than 416 over several years. When the humans trained with Kami over a single year, they all increased by around 1000. This training was all in the exact same gravity and under the exact same master.

What you're suggesting is that characters improve at a fixed rate which isn't proportionate to how much power they've already attained -- but that's not what we see in the series. Otherwise Cell Saga Goku would be lucky to reach 300,050.

By the end of Z Goku would probably somewhere from 7 to 10 million at the most in his base form. (Still beyond powerful as an SSJ let alone the other levels.) Just because he jumped from 400 to 300,000 so quickly once does not set the standard, or have you forgotten DB? Think about the amount of power that is. Don't compare %'s, compare actuall NUMBERS.

Okay, let's compare actual numbers. In the years before Radditz's arrival, Goku only manages to acquire a power level of 416. Therefore, Cell Saga Goku is approximately 300,416. Piccolo is maybe 1,000,408.

You're giving Goku and Gohan FAR to much credit. There's NO WAY IN HELL either of them is that strong. You're giving them an increse of not 700 but well over a thousand.

Why weren't they that strong? I've provided the evidence indicating that normal Vegeta and Gohan were both stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games.

Gohan planned to use his normal form, yes, but I seriously doubt Vegeta would have cared. And did they even know 18 was entering ahead of time? Besides that, Krillin entered. Do you think he'd have even given it a shot if Goku's base power was beyond that of Cell?

Vegeta agreed to only use his normal form. He never said "OMG there's #18 and Piccolo, SSJ time!" Kuririn entered specifically to place below the stronger contestants. He couldn't touch the Saiya-jin regardless of whether they were stronger than Form 1 Cell, Form 2 Cell or even Perfect Cell -- so why would it matter to him?

Let's look at Rach's little 'chart' there, shall we? Can't you see the problems with all of that? Here, I'll add the others bassed off the 'evidence' from the show (as stated / displayed).

What's the problem here?

[Xyex]

I'm not going to go point for point this time... but I do have a few things to say that makes, at least IMO, all claims of Base Saiya-jins being stronger than Piccolo sound utterly stupid.

Why weren't they that strong? I've provided the evidence indicating that normal Vegeta and Gohan were both stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Games.

So BASE Vegeta and Gohan were both stronger than Piccolo's full power? Vegeta went from needing to go SSJ to fight against 19 and still getting his ass kicked by 18 to needing USSJ to fight Semi-Perfect Cell and still getting his ass kicked by Perfect Cell to having enough power in BASE to defeat Imperfect Cell? Then why the hell did Gohan go SSJ2? With that much power in his base form all either would have needed is SSJ.

Beyond that, why did Mirai no Trunks go SSJ in his own time to defeat the Androids and Cell? He was AT LEAST as powerful as Vegeta was. If Cell Games base Vegeta is stronger than Cell Games Piccolo then he's much stronger than Imperfect Cell, which means Trunks would be pretty damn close to that too. So why'd he go SSJ? Cause otherwise he'd not have had nearly enough power.

And again, proof that Vegeta was in base when he blasted Cell. Do you have any? If I remember the clip right everything was glowing golden in the area so you can't really tell. And yet again, why does power even matter here? VEGETA DISTRACTED CELL. Cell hadn't expected Vegeta's blast, that's all there is to it.

Think about this for a second. Vegeta's power, by your claims, increased by more than 150 fold AT THE LEAST between his fight with 19 and the Cell Games.

Give me something solid if you want me to believe any Saiya-jin, at base, is ever stronger than Android Saga or later Piccolo. So far everything you've said is beyond feasable. I'll start believing this when I start believing SSJ3 Goku was the strongest character to ever appear in the series.

You know what, I'm gonning to stop debating this now. The powers are never consistent in the series. By the start of the Android Saga Toriyama-sama was no longer thinking about actual numbers for powers anymore, he just did what he thought would be good. If he'd have said that Piccolo was the strongest of the Z fighters (before revealing SSJ3 Goku at least) then he'd have been the strongest. Fact of the mater is though, it's not possible to give a compeletly explainable answer. Base Vegeta killing Pui Pui is proof that Toriyama-sama was just doing what he wanted. Debating stuff like this makes my head hurt.

[James R. Cadwell]

Then why the hell did Gohan go SSJ2? With that much power in his base form all either would have needed is SSJ.

Uh, no. Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ Gohan.

Beyond that, why did Mirai no Trunks go SSJ in his own time to defeat the Androids and Cell? He was AT LEAST as powerful as Vegeta was.

Why did Gohan turn SSJ to confront Spopovitch? A character's personal decision to use Super Saiya-jin doesn't really affect my position.

If Cell Games base Vegeta is stronger than Cell Games Piccolo then he's much stronger than Imperfect Cell, which means Trunks would be pretty damn close to that too. So why'd he go SSJ? Cause otherwise he'd not have had nearly enough power.

How did you reach the conclusion that normal Vegeta has to be stronger than Form 1 Cell? Remember, Form 1 Cell demonstrates two, radically-different levels of power.

-When Form 1 Cell first appears, he has recently left his larval state and isn't really that powerful. Piccolo handles him easily.

-When Form 1 Cell appears for the second time, he's increased his power by absorbing thousands of people. Piccolo can't even scratch him with a huge blast. He could be dozens of times stronger by this point.

Post-RoSaT Piccolo and Post-RoSaT normal Vegeta can fit between those two levels of power without affecting my argument.

And again, proof that Vegeta was in base when he blasted Cell. Do you have any? If I remember the clip right everything was glowing golden in the area so you can't really tell.

Manga chapter 416. Cell is struck in the face by an energy blast, then looks upward to see normal Vegeta with his hand extended.

And yet again, why does power even matter here? VEGETA DISTRACTED CELL. Cell hadn't expected Vegeta's blast, that's all there is to it.

Vegeta's blast pushes Cell's head to the side, so it wasn't like he just tossed a cottonball at him. During the fight with #17, Piccolo couldn't even affect Form 1 Cell with an enormous energy wave.

You also haven't explained why Piccolo didn't attack Perfect Cell if distracting him was so simple.

Think about this for a second. Vegeta's power, by your claims, increased by more than 150 fold AT THE LEAST between his fight with 19 and the Cell Games.

Which is impossible because you say so?

Give me something solid if you want me to believe any Saiya-jin, at base, is ever stronger than Android Saga or later Piccolo. So far everything you've said is beyond feasable.

What's more solid than Dabura and Babidi saying so? They both made a direct observation and determined that Piccolo was nowhere near the base form Saiya-jin in power. The evidence is there, you're just refusing to accept it.

[oponok]

It's definately true that base Vegeta and Goku are at least stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga. I'm not sure about Gohan. It's arguable that when Gohan released his hidden SSJ2 power against Cell that his base form increased in power as it had every other time he got pissed off. As for Goku and Vegeta, recall that they have been training harder than ever since the Cell games. There's no indication that Piccolo really did ANY training, perhaps because the Kami part of him created a desire for peace and to simply watch over Earth.

I'm not sure about the Cell games, though. When I watched the anime, I believe everything was glowing blue-ish, so you couldn't see Vegeta's hair. If we're using the anime as evidence, though, Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, and Krillin combined didn't even bother Cell in the least. I'm not sure if base Goku was stronger than Piccolo, since Goku's training consisted mostly of prefecting the SSJ form by simply living as a SSJ, which is how he probably attained SSJ2 and 3. He didn't have to train that hard, apparently, as just remainging in SSJ while he trained made his SSJ forms stronger, while not necesarily his base form. Vegeta, however, trained mainly in his normal state, which appeared to be his strong suit, as he boasts at the World Tournament years later that if no SSJ forms were used, he'd have the tourney won, hands down, meaning he could beat Goku, Piccolo, and 18. Also, Vegeta lasts a surprisingly long time in his normal form against Kid Buu, proving that his training has given him quite a absurd increase in strength and endurance, considering Fat Buu wiped out SSJ2 Gohan with one blast.

Also, who says Piccolo is more skilled than Goku or Vegeta? Piccolo himself and Goku have called Vegeta a genius, while Goku has always found (mir-frickin'-aculous) ways to stay ahead in power. Piccolo is a smart fighter, true, but not the bestest, smartest in the universe, or else HE'D be ahead all the time instead of the Saiyans.

And who says SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Vegetto? Why would that be? Vegetto only needed to go SSJ level 1 to completely dominate Super Buu, though even in his normal form he was having a rather easy time of it. Though as for people who claim Vegetto goes SSJ2, I think that's BS. Just because one little bolt of electricity appeared when he transformed, I doubt that qualifies him for SSJ2. This would mean Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. were both SSJ2, which wouldn't be probable. We never learn the full extent of Vegetto's power. Since Goku and Vegeta are both SSJ2, Vegetto could have likely gone to SSJ3 and even beyond if Toriyama wanted to create a SSJ4.

[Xyex]

This is seriously my last comments, this just hurts my head to look at it anymore.

Vegeta's blast pushes Cell's head to the side, so it wasn't like he just tossed a cottonball at him. During the fight with #17, Piccolo couldn't even affect Form 1 Cell with an enormous energy wave.

[AND]

-When Form 1 Cell first appears, he has recently left his larval state and isn't really that powerful. Piccolo handles him easily.

-When Form 1 Cell appears for the second time, he's increased his power by absorbing thousands of people. Piccolo can't even scratch him with a huge blast. He could be dozens of times stronger by this point.

You forget Piccolo just finished a big ass fight against 17 so his power is going to be a lot lower. That's why.

And for your claims than Vegeta would have needed to be stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell while in his base form.

Uh, no. Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ Gohan.

So then the SSJ transformation by this point is weaker than the Oozaru transformation? You claim base Gohan and Vegeta stronger than Piccolo's full power, which is at least even to the full power Imperfect Cell, and yet the SSJ form isn't as powerfull as Perfect Cell? Imperfect Cell to Perfect isn't that large of boost. He's only absorbing 17 & 18 which probably adds their power to his own. So most likely he's only trippled his power for his perfect form, that means that the SSJ form is doing less than doubling Gohan and Vegeta's power....

Which is impossible because you say so?

So then, it happened because you say it did? That's basicly what you're saying.

What's more solid than Dabura and Babidi saying so? They both made a direct observation and determined that Piccolo was nowhere near the base form Saiya-jin in power. The evidence is there, you're just refusing to accept it.

What's more solid than Shin saying that Gohan was the strongest of the Z fighters? Of Shin saying that it would take all of them to beat Pui Pui, of Shin saying that none of them could stand up to Dabura? Or of Vegeta, during the Namek Saga, saying he was a Super Saiya-jin, or his constantly saying he was the strongest? Or of Shin saying Kid Buu is Buu's strongest form?

[James R. Cadwell]

You forget Piccolo just finished a big ass fight against 17 so his power is going to be a lot lower. That's why.

1: Piccolo was still fighting evenly with #17 when Cell arrived, so his power couldn't have been much lower than it was when he began the battle.

2: Cell also sensed Piccolo's "ki" as the fight started, and noted that he had surpassed him.

3: Remember that #17 was relatively equal with Piccolo, and he couldn't affect the stronger Form 1 Cell, either.

Piccolo's inability to even scratch Cell wasn't the result of exhaustion -- he just wasn't strong enough.

So then the SSJ transformation by this point is weaker than the Oozaru transformation? You claim base Gohan and Vegeta stronger than Piccolo's full power, which is at least even to the full power Imperfect Cell, and yet the SSJ form isn't as powerfull as Perfect Cell? Imperfect Cell to Perfect isn't that large of boost. He's only absorbing 17 & 18 which probably adds their power to his own. So most likely he's only trippled his power for his perfect form, that means that the SSJ form is doing less than doubling Gohan and Vegeta's power....

When Cell absorbed the Artificial Humans, he wasn't just adding their power to his own -- this should be clear after watching his transformation to Perfect Cell. Form 2 Cell (who couldn't affect a USSJ) + #18 (who couldn't even affect Form 1 Cell) does not equal a fighter strong enough to effortlessly overpower Vegeta.

Your argument is kinda based on the assumption that Cell only adds #17 and #18's power to his own, even though he's clearly several times more powerful than those two to begin with. That's hardly enough to account for "Ha-ha-ha, weakling!" Form 2 Cell and "$!@#! My kicks bounce off your head!" Perfect Cell.

What's more solid than Shin saying that Gohan was the strongest of the Z fighters?

SSJ2 Gohan was the strongest until Vegeta and Goku also transformed.

Of Shin saying that it would take all of them to beat Pui Pui, of Shin saying that none of them could stand up to Dabura?

This is called underestimation. Kaioshin thinks the Saiya-jin might be incapable of some of those feats -- they prove him wrong. Dabura and Babidi note that the three Saiya-jin are stronger than Piccolo -- they later prove to be even more powerful than they originally observed. TripleRach discusses this earlier in the thread.

Or of Vegeta, during the Namek Saga, saying he was a Super Saiya-jin, or his constantly saying he was the strongest? Or of Shin saying Kid Buu is Buu's strongest form?

We didn't know what a Super Saiya-jin looked like when Vegeta claimed to be one -- once we did, we could conclude that he definitely wasn't SSJ during that period of time. Kid Buu is said to be more powerful, Super Buu is directly and indirectly shown to be more powerful. Piccolo is said and shown to be weaker than base form Goku, Vegeta and Gohan -- there's really no conflicting evidence like in Buu's case.

[Xyex]

Ugh! I can't believe I'm still doing this!

When Cell absorbed the Artificial Humans, he wasn't just adding their power to his own -- this should be clear after watching his transformation to Perfect Cell. Form 2 Cell (who couldn't affect a USSJ) + #18 (who couldn't even affect Form 1 Cell) does not equal a fighter strong enough to effortlessly overpower Vegeta.

Your argument is kinda based on the assumption that Cell only adds #17 and #18's power to his own, even though he's clearly several times more powerful than those two to begin with. That's hardly enough to account for "Ha-ha-ha, weakling!" Form 2 Cell and "$!@#! My kicks bounce off your head!" Perfect Cell.

You're assuming that, when it comes to power, a % is a %. In otherwords, you're assuming that if two people fought, one at a PL of 100 and the other at 200, and then fought again, one at 100,000,000 and the other at 200,000,000 there would be no added difficult to the weaker person. It's just as possible that power dosen't work that way and that the second set of powers would lead to the weaker person getting pounded into the ground and never having a chance. That's the way I see power levels.

By this way, yes, adding 18 to his power would make Cell much stronger. A quick example with my estimation of the powers. This is from when Cell shows up during the Piccolo / 17 fight and the Vegeta / Cell fight that followed.

Piccolo - 45,000,000
+ After 17 fight - 40,000,000
Android 18 - 40,000,000
Android 17 - 42,000,000
Cell - 43,000,000
+ Humans - 45,000,000
+ Semi-Perfect - 87,000,000
+ Perfect - 129,000,000
Vegeta - 1,800,000
+ SSJ - 48,750,000
+ USSJ - 103,650,000

Which all makes sense. Perfect Cell would be more than enough to handle Vegeta. Piccolo would have lost enough power to have more than a little trouble with Cell.

This is called underestimation. Kaioshin thinks the Saiya-jin might be incapable of some of those feats -- they prove him wrong. Dabura and Babidi note that the three Saiya-jin are stronger than Piccolo -- they later prove to be even more powerful than they originally observed. TripleRach discusses this earlier in the thread.

So then, Shin can goof on who's strongest but Babidi and Dabura can't? We never witnessed Piccolo's power at this point, and neither did they. They could have just as easily been wrong as Shin was, that's my point. If you take what one person says as absolute fact you have to take EVERYTHING EVERYONE says as absolute fact until something proves obviously otherwise, as their is no proof this entire debate is pointless.

However, I'll make one last point that those powers I posted brought to mind. You say base Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo cause he knocked Cell's head off a bit, with a surpise atack at that, right? Alright then, I guess Tien is stronger too. After all, he did hold Semi-Perfect Cell off for a bit with his Tri-Beam, and this WASN'T a sneak attack.

[James R. Cadwell]

You're assuming that, when it comes to power, a % is a %. In otherwords, you're assuming that if two people fought, one at a PL of 100 and the other at 200, and then fought again, one at 100,000,000 and the other at 200,000,000 there would be no added difficult to the weaker person. It's just as possible that power dosen't work that way and that the second set of powers would lead to the weaker person getting pounded into the ground and never having a chance. That's the way I see power levels.

Ignore scouter readings for a moment.

- Piccolo is relatively equal with #17, who is stronger than #18.

- Form 1 Cell is clearly several times physically stronger than Piccolo when he appears for the second time -- regardless of how this translates into power levels. He breaks Piccolo's neck with a single blow and is invulnerable to his energy attacks.

- Artificial Human #16 appears to be relatively equal with Form 1 Cell.

- Form 2 Cell cracks #16's skull/head casing/whatever without any problems. He's physically much more powerful than the android.

- Form 2 Cell is also invulnerable to attacks from #16 and #18.

- USSJ Vegeta is basically invulnerable to attacks from Form 2 Cell.

- Perfect Cell knocks USSJ Vegeta out without any difficulty.

Those are examples of enormous differences in strength and durability. The power levels are unimportant -- even Form 2 Cell is clearly dozens or even hundreds of times physically stronger than #18. A direct addition of #18's strength to Cell's would be insignificant. If Form 2 Cell is steel, then #18 is styrofoam. There's no comparison.

Piccolo would have lost enough power to have more than a little trouble with Cell.

#17 had infinite stamina and couldn't touch Cell, either. Like I said earlier; regardless of how it translates into scouter readings, Form 1 Cell is many times stronger than Piccolo.

So then, Shin can goof on who's strongest but Babidi and Dabura can't? We never witnessed Piccolo's power at this point, and neither did they. They could have just as easily been wrong as Shin was, that's my point.

Those situations aren't analogous. Kaioshin could only compare Goku and Vegeta's base forms with SSJ2 Gohan until a little after entering Babidi's ship. If he concluded that SSJ2 Gohan was stronger, he would be accurate.

However, I'll make one last point that those powers I posted brought to mind. You say base Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo cause he knocked Cell's head off a bit, with a surpise atack at that, right? Alright then, I guess Tien is stronger too. After all, he did hold Semi-Perfect Cell off for a bit with his Tri-Beam, and this WASN'T a sneak attack.

Shin Kikoho generates far more energy than Tenshinhan is capable of producing without using the technique. So yes, Shin Kikoho was more powerful than Piccolo.

[Xyex]

You're assuming that, when it comes to power, a % is a %. In otherwords, you're assuming that if two people fought, one at a PL of 100 and the other at 200, and then fought again, one at 100,000,000 and the other at 200,000,000 there would be no added difficult to the weaker person. It's just as possible that power dosen't work that way and that the second set of powers would lead to the weaker person getting pounded into the ground and never having a chance. That's the way I see power levels.

Ignore scouter readings for a moment.

- Piccolo is relatively equal with #17, who is stronger than #18.

- Form 1 Cell is clearly several times physically stronger than Piccolo when he appears for the second time -- regardless of how this translates into power levels. He breaks Piccolo's neck with a single blow and is invulnerable to his energy attacks.

- Artificial Human #16 appears to be relatively equal with Form 1 Cell.

- Form 2 Cell cracks #16's skull/head casing/whatever without any problems. He's physically much more powerful than the android.

- Form 2 Cell is also invulnerable to attacks from #16 and #18.

- USSJ Vegeta is basically invulnerable to attacks from Form 2 Cell.

- Perfect Cell knocks USSJ Vegeta out without any difficulty.

Those are examples of enormous differences in strength and durability. The power levels are unimportant -- even Form 2 Cell is clearly dozens or even hundreds of times physically stronger than #18. A direct addition of #18's strength to Cell's would be insignificant. If Form 2 Cell is steel, then #18 is styrofoam. There's no comparison.

Power levels aren't unimportant if that's what we're debating and it is, in fact, what we're debating. I don't care how you try and phrase it they are the point of this entire thread. So, going with my above listed powers for Piccolo and Cell you're saying that, by the Cell Games, Vegeta's power, in Base, is around 120 million, at the least since 'Cell felt the balst'. Yet his SSJ Transformation dosen't put him beyond Cell's power?!

Those situations aren't analogous. Kaioshin could only compare Goku and Vegeta's base forms with SSJ2 Gohan until a little after entering Babidi's ship. If he concluded that SSJ2 Gohan was stronger, he would be accurate.

So Shin had absolutely no idea that Goku and Vegeta could transfrom? Shin can be wrong but Babidi and Dabura can't? How could Shin only have base Goku and Vegeta's powers but SSJ2 Gohan's? (When he didn't even know THERE WAS A SECOND LEVEL!) If he sensed Gohan's SSJ2 he most likely sensed Goku and the others as SSJ's. And you still haven't explained how Babidi and Dubura where sensing Goku and Vegeta's SSJ powers. *Head... pounding... must... stop... now.*

[James R. Cadwell]

So, going with my above listed powers for Piccolo and Cell you're saying that, by the Cell Games, Vegeta's power, in Base, is around 120 million, at the least since 'Cell felt the balst'. Yet his SSJ Transformation dosen't put him beyond Cell's power?!

If the events in the series don't easily fit into your power level scale, then maybe your scale isn't entirely accurate. It seems like you're refusing to accept that Vegeta's base form is stronger than Piccolo because it can't be reconciled with your power level estimates.

So Shin had absolutely no idea that Goku and Vegeta could transfrom? Shin can be wrong but Babidi and Dabura can't? How could Shin only have base Goku and Vegeta's powers but SSJ2 Gohan's? (When he didn't even know THERE WAS A SECOND LEVEL!)

Kaioshin saw Gohan demonstrate the second level of Super Saiya-jin during the Tenkaichi Budokai. He didn't see anyone else exhibit that level of power until after he stopped rambling about Gohan's strength.

And you still haven't explained how Babidi and Dubura where sensing Goku and Vegeta's SSJ powers. *Head... pounding... must... stop... now.*

When did I say that Babidi and Darbura were sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiya-jin power?

[Dayspring]

You do rely on percentages way too much though. Look at how easily Vegeta killed Dodoria. Vegeta had a PL of 24,000 and Dodoria 22,000. That's 92% of Vegeta's strength! If it was always about percentages than this'd be nothing and Dodoria'd have a good chance at winning.

Even if you argue that Dodoria's PL came from the daizenshuu, then you still know that Dodoria has AT LEAST 75% of Vegeta's strength since we know Dodoria to be way over 18,000.