Namekian fusion.

[Xyex]

This has been something that's bothered me for some time. We know Nail's PL was about 42,000 and that Piccolo couldn't have been more than 4,000 (he was 3,500 against the Siaya-jins), and yet their fusion put Piccolo beyond Freeza's second form power which was beyond a million. How? Well, I think I figured it out.

Here's the system. The power being 'added' (the Namek who's body vanishes) is divided by 100 and then multipled by the other Namekians power. In this case Nail's power would be divided and then multipled by Piccolo's to get the new level. I'll do both of Piccolo's possible PL's for this just to cover all basses. We'll start with 3,500.

3,500:
Piccolo - 3,500. Nail - 42,000 / 100 = 420. 3,500 x 420 = 1,470,000

4,000:
Piccolo - 4,000. Nail - 42,000 / 100 = 420. 4,000 x 420 = 1,680,000

Both of those would have made him stronger than Freeza's second form. Now for some extra little stuff I'm going to do the Piccolo / Kami fusion as well. Now I know a lot of people feel that the bulk of the power from this fusion came from the two of them being one person originally, I had too, but with this system that don't matter.

First of all, what IS Piccolo's power at this point? Well, Krillin compared Piccolo's power to that of a Super Saiya-jin so it's safe to assume that he's AT LEAST at 15 million by this point. As for Kami? We know that during DB he was around 260 to 300 by the time of the 23rd Budokai. Once more I'll do two sets of math here to show both possible levels, one assuming Kami is was at 260 and one assuming Kami was at 300. This time it's Kami's power that will divided.

260:
Piccolo - 15,000,000. Kami - 260 / 100 = 2.6. 15,000,000 x 2.6 = 39,000,000

300:
Piccolo - 15,000,000. Kami - 300 / 100 = 3. 15,000,000 x 3 = 45,000,000

This, at least, adds up to my PL ideas for the Android Saga.... But, either way, the system does seem to work! Yay!

[Dayspring]

Well done. But personally I think Piccolo would have been stronger than 15,000,000 since that was Goku's SSJ PL on Namek. Once he returns to Earth he's much stronger than that, and now add 3 years training intense.

I think the problem with PLs is that nobody wants to consider that ppl might be in the 100 millions in the android saga, and in the billions during the Boo saga.

[Xyex]

I think the problem with PLs is that nobody wants to consider that ppl might be in the 100 millions in the android saga, and in the billions during the Boo saga.

(First, I know this is a bit off topic, but I have to post this anyway, cause of Dayspring's comment.) I wouldn't say nobody, I have found one PL list that's along those lines... The thing was a mess so after I found it I copied it and formated it so I could read it with just a glance. I'll just give the Cell Games here, but I'll PM you the whole thing Day.

Good
Piccolo - 300,000,000
Trunks - 11,000,000
+ SSJ - 550,000,000
Vegeta - 12,500,000
+ SSJ - 625,000,000
Goku - 13,200,000
+ SSJ - 660,000,000
Gohan - 13,500,000
+ SSJ - 675,000,000
+ SSJ2 - 2,025,000,000
+ Injured - 1,012,500,00

Bad
Cell - Perfect - 690,000,000
+ Full Power - 1,035,000,000
+ Super Perfect - 1,380,000,000

But yeah, I for one don't like putting them in the billions that early. Super Buu 2 and 3 as well as Mystic Gohan and Vegetto, yeah, but that's it.

[Dai]

I hate the term ''power levels'' in general, but even so I had to say Piccolo was probably a lot stronger than that after having trained with Kaiou.

[James R. Cadwell]

Here's the system. The power being 'added' (the Namek who's body vanishes) is divided by 100 and then multipled by the other Namekians power. In this case Nail's power would be divided and then multipled by Piccolo's to get the new level.

So two Namekians with power levels of 100,000 would produce a fusion with a battle power over twice as large as your estimate for the Kami/Piccolo fusion?

It's also worth pointing out that fusing two Namekians with power levels of 5 produces a fighter twenty times weaker than either of those people separately.

It's a decent system, but I'm not sure that it makes any more sense than simply adding the two power levels and multiplying them by an arbitrary number.

But yeah, I for one don't like putting them in the billions that early. Super Buu 2 and 3 as well as Mystic Gohan and Vegetto, yeah, but that's it.

There was a guy from alt.fan.dragonball (Talen, I think -- maybe Jim Stanfield) who came up with something like 100 trillion+ for the Cell Saga.

[Dayspring]

I hate the term ''power levels'' in general, but even so I had to say Piccolo was probably a lot stronger than that after having trained with Kaiou.

Why does everybody get the feeling that Piccolo is the strongest simply because he meditated for 5 and a half days under 10x gravity? Goku was MUCH stronger Piccolo before training under 20x gravity, and he jumped to 50x and then 100x.

[B-kun]

@__@ Noooooooooo~. No more post-Trunks Saga power levels~. *collapses*

Seriously, you're already basically discussing that in another thread. X_X

[James R. Cadwell]

I hate the term ''power levels'' in general, but even so I had to say Piccolo was probably a lot stronger than that after having trained with Kaiou.

Why does everybody get the feeling that Piccolo is the strongest simply because he meditated for 5 and a half days under 10x gravity? Goku was MUCH stronger Piccolo before training under 20x gravity, and he jumped to 50x and then 100x.

I think Dai is just saying that Piccolo was probably stronger than 3,500/4,000 after spending a week on Kaio-sama's planet -- not the strongest.

[Dai]

Exactly. I mean, if Piccolo only had a power increase of 500, he would never had gotten off to Namek with so much faith in his abilities. He was warned Freeza was incredibly strong, yet was convinced he was able to at least help. With a power level of 4,000, that would mean Piccolo had just turned incredibly stupid, since he knew that barely even passed Nappa. And I doubt that.

[Dayspring]

Ah. But even then. I think he was lying so he could fight Freeza. It's not like they knew every detail of what was happening at Kaio's. He did promise to NOT fight Freeza as well, and that was his whole intention of going.

I think he would have been weaker than Nail when he first arrived, figuring Freeza was stronger than Vegeta but not 00ber stronger. I mean, Goku's PL after 100x gravity went from above 8,000 to to only 90,000. Under 10x alone Piccolo started at 3,500. Even if you argue that Goku used diff gravities, when Piccolo was still running Snake way Goku had trained under twice Kaio's planet's gravity.

[Xyex]

So two Namekians with power levels of 100,000 would produce a fusion with a battle power over twice as large as your estimate for the Kami/Piccolo fusion?

Yes, if two Nameks ever hit that level (Piccolo's the only one) and they fused they'd stomp Piccolo into the dirt. Hell, if Piccolo had been thinking he'd have gone to New Namek and fused with their strongest warrior (with Nail gone that would probably be about 4,200 (10x weaker than Nail)) and then Piccolo would have turned Cell inside out and could have done a fairly decent job of turning Buu into landscaping... oh well, roads not taken....

It's also worth pointing out that fusing two Namekians with power levels of 5 produces a fighter twenty times weaker than either of those people separately.

Please, make sure you did your math right before making a point like this one. Two Nameks with a power of five would not equal 0.25 as you calculated, but 5.25. How? Well, simple. When mutliplying a decimal without a whole number you must add a 1 to the front to get a correct number.

A good example is the Kaio Ken. The first level is only a 50% increase in the users power. So, Goku = 10,000 x 0.5 = 5,000, but obviously that's wrong. What you need to do is Goku = 10,000 x 1.5 = 15,000. It'a little math thing that a good amount of people seem to miss. 0 can cause problems like that.

Another way to do it is to do as you did, not add the 1. But then you HAVE to add your result to your original. It produces the same number in the end.

It's a decent system, but I'm not sure that it makes any more sense than simply adding the two power levels and multiplying them by an arbitrary number.

This system has the same ammount of sucess as the 'SSJ = 50x increase in power' that most people take as fact. But that don't mean there isn't a way to get the same result another way. Hell, there could be half a dozen or more possible formulas to get the same result to both. That's not the point. The point is, this one DOES get the correct result.

Besides, if you don't like this one, then go and find that other method instead of just trying to poke holes in this one. Do something productive for once.

[Deus ex Machina]

This formula is as close as any I've seen to date, although I highly doubt Toriyama was using formulas to decide how powerful each character was going to be. His thinking was probably more "Hm, Now Freeza's strong, so I'll make Piccolo strong! Then I'll make Freeza even stronger!". But I can't see anything that would negate your theory. But, I think this theory only works if you assume that only certain Namekians have the ability to merge (like Nail and Kami) otherwise they would've done so to beat Freeza.

Now then, feel like taking a crack at Dance Fusion and Potara Fusion?

[Xyex]

I've been looking into those too, but with no actually PLs to use it's impossible to devlop something.

As for the point about the other Nameks fusing, it could be limited to certain Nameks just like creating DBs is limited. But I think it was more of a "Let's get th...." [dead Nameks fall to the ground] kind of thing. None of them got the time to actually merge. That and I don't think Toriyama-sama thought of it until he had Piccolo on Namek and realized he'd get his assed kicked as he was and needed some kind of power boost.

[James R. Cadwell]

Please, make sure you did your math right before making a point like this one. Two Nameks with a power of five would not equal 0.25 as you calculated, but 5.25. How? Well, simple. When mutliplying a decimal without a whole number you must add a 1 to the front to get a correct number. A good example is the Kaio Ken. The first level is only a 50% increase in the users power. So, Goku = 10,000 x 0.5 = 5,000, but obviously that's wrong. What you need to do is Goku = 10,000 x 1.5 = 15,000. It'a little math thing that a good amount of people seem to miss. 0 can cause problems like that.

You're confusing decimals with percentages. Try converting 0.05 into a fraction and then multiply it by five -- you won't get 5.25 (21/4) as a result. You'll get 0.25 (1/4).

Another way to do it is to do as you did, not add the 1. But then you HAVE to add your result to your original. It produces the same number in the end.

So 0.1 * 1 = 1.1?

[Spyderjsr]

No more post-Trunks Saga power levels

I agree. Although I also wonder about these things, I think putting TOO much thought into it would jus result in turning a great anime and story like the Whole Dragonball Series into something cheezy like "Cardcaptors" or "Yu Gui O" or whatever the hell it is. Where it becomes less of a great Story and more of a novelty.

Anyone know what I mean? Or was I not coherant enough? I guess an example would be like Roleplaying... He has blah blah blah defense points so I need blah blah blah attack points to be stronger then him. Know what I mean?

[B-kun]

Exactly. @_@ The whole power level gets ridiculous by the Ginyu arc, so can you imagine how it would be by the Jinzouningen? Besides, it's kinda pointless making up new power levels since you can't prove them either way.

[Fuujin]

I agree, people rely too mouch on power levels, while forgetting that factors such as speed, or fighting experience are also important. For example - Piccolo's power level could be very well below one million in his fight with Frieza, but his speed made up for it (as even our friendly neighbourhood Changeling pointed out, that the green guy's speed was his trump card).

[Xyex]

Your PL determines your speed though. The only thing that reduces that is when it becomes harder for you to move due to muscles or size or whatever.

[Fuujin]

Are you sure? Rikuum's and Burter's power levels were similar, yet the difference in speed was obvious.

[Dayspring]

You don't know that they're strengths were similar. You just know that were both less than 60,000.