Boo's Strength Theory

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Boo's Strength Theory

Post by Dayspring » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:40 pm

Well gaiaonline is glitching again so I'm back! :P

I have a theory about Boo's strength. Everybody thinks it has to do with who he absorbed. I think that's just a single factor. Instead of it being ki growth alone (I'm assuming ki refers to the source of all forms of typical DB strength in this argument), I also believe Boo manages to draw schtinkloads of ki from his being evil. In contrast, the kaioshins could be doing the opposite and get their ki from goodness. It could also explain why Kaioshin was so shocked by Gohan+co's strength: non-deities would be getting their strength by developping their ki through physical+spiritual training.

Now when blending this evil/goodness with "normal" (non-deity) ki, we're getting into 00ber powerful levels of strength.

1) Kid Boo: said to be most evil form. Therefore he gets the largest amount of evil-ki. We'll label him as a "15" in terms of overall strength.

2) Boo (absorbs South Kaioshin): South Kaioshin is said to be the strongest of the 4, so we'll put him as a 7 just for kicks. After having absorbed him, Boo would gain only most of the South's overall strength since a Kaioshin is very good. Let's say Buff Boo is only "20" instead of 22 (15+7)

3) Fat Boo: It's said that the Dai Kaioshin GREATLY reduced Boo's strength because of his goodness. Here we'll place him at 4 as a result. Big drop, I know, but I'm assuming by Kaioshin's maneurisms that Dai Kaioshin was more good than Boo was evil.

4) Skinny Boo: Skinny Boo was said to be made up of Fat Boo's evil side, which wasn't much at this point. That's why, IMO, Kid Boo wasn't expunged instead. Since Skinny was said to have taken most of Fat's strength, we'll put skinny at between 2 and 3, and the new Fat at what's left out of the original 4.

5) Super Boo: No theory on how Super is stronger than the first version of Fat. This might proove my theory wrong since it should just result in a weaker version of Skinny. Maybe it's because he's absorbed another Boo. We'll clock Super at 5.

6) Super Boo+Gotenks+Piccolo: Here's where normal strength only comes in. We'll say it doesn't assimilate in the same fashion as goodness or evil, so although SSJ3 Gotenks is probably also a 5 (and Piccolo less than 1. Should have used a larger scale), Adding them together would only get 8.

7) Super Boo+Gohan: Now Gohan I'd clock at 7. When he gets absorbed the same thing happens since Gohan's strength only is what gets absorbed. We get what most people argue is the strongest form of Boo, Super Boo+Gohan, who I clock at between 12 and 13.

8) Buff Boo reappears, making everybody shit bricks because of his "20" strength. People start feeling better when he transforms again into Boo since his ki is reducing. They feel safer now why? Because his ki is coming from evil alone, not from strength (and he's weaker than Buff), so they assume he's someone they can take on. But at 15 instead of 12-13, Goku finds out that he's not strong enough to win like he thought he was in SSJ3, and that he must go full power to win. Surprise! He can't go FP in the living world.

9) Boo dies how? By an attack that strikes at the evil in you. Where does Kid Boo's ki come from? His evil.

Now before anybody goes all "OMG TATS @11 L133S~~~!! SH0W MEH IN DA SPANISH SUB W3r3 3xActyl IT SAYS TAT 0r 1ts n0T C@n0n~~~!!!oneoneone" on my ass, please note that this is a THEORY to explain that Kid Boo's and Dai Kaioshin's (and possibly the other Kaioshins') strength comes from a factor not shown in the rest of DB: goodness and evil, and that Boo's assimilations aren't as strong as they appear as a result of this lack of evil in his assimilations.

My thoughts on strength origins:
Physical, Spiritual, good/evil. Up to the end of the Piccolo arc we only see physical, then we see only physical+spiritual up to the Boo arc.
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Re: Boo's Strength Theory

Post by Deus ex Machina » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:18 pm

There's plenty of evidence to support your theory of good vs. evil Ki. Babidi says that he can't make use of Kaioshin's and Kibito's energy (Presumably because it is too pure + goodness), and that Majin Boo seems to tap into a very powerful and evil source of power, such as when he frees himself from the Room of Spirit & Time. But I do disagree with a few points:

There's never been any proof that buff Boo (Kid Boo + South Kaioshin; from now on to be refered to as uber Boo) was any stronger than before. I reject this idea right out, because it makes no sence that 1 Kaioshin would make him stronger, while another would make him incredibly weak (by comparison)

Yes he got physically larger, but this isn't really an indicator of strength, especially in the DB universe. Why would Boo bother then? Maybe so he could use his powers, maybe so he would learn his fighting techniques, or maybe because he's just friggin nuts. I wouldn't put it past him; but I doubt Boo became any stronger from South Kaioshin, if not weaker.

Now, as for Fat Boo and Skinny Boo. The important thing to remember is that the Grand Kaioshin had influence over BOTH Boo's, severelly limiting their powers. The difference between them was that Skinny Boo was literally the incarnation of all of Boo's evil, and what was left inside Fat Boo wasn't very much since Boo was more evil than good. However, Skinny Boo was NOT pure evil, otherwise he would've been Kid Boo.
Dayspring wrote:Now before anybody goes all "OMG TATS @11 L133S~~~!! SH0W MEH IN DA SPANISH SUB W3r3 3xActyl IT SAYS TAT 0r 1ts n0T C@n0n~~~!!!oneoneone" on my ass, please note that this is a THEORY to explain that Kid Boo's and Dai Kaioshin's (and possibly the other Kaioshins') strength comes from a factor not shown in the rest of DB: goodness and evil, and that Boo's assimilations aren't as strong as they appear as a result of this lack of evil in his assimilations.
What, didn't you know that danish manga's are the source of all things Dragonball? :P

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Post by oponok » Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:33 pm

Seemed to me that whenever Buu absorbed someone weaker than himself, he gets weaker (i.e. after he absorbs Gotenks and the fusion is disabled, he's left with Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo, and Goku claims that he and Gohan can easily take him, at that point). Whenever he absorbs someone stronger than himself, he gets stronger (Gotenks, Mystic Gohan).

I do think there is something to this "evil" theory, though. Nothing seems like it can destroy Buu, in ANY of his forms, besides the Spirit Bomb. Not Vegeta's self-destruction, Gotenks, nothing. Buu is a demon, and is completely unlike Cell, since even just dust left over from his destroyed body can reform, and his complete stamina remains. Maybe it's because he's just made out of magic, and thus Ki isn't a complete factor. The fact that the spirit bomb was an attack of utter "goodness" was what enabled it to wipe out Buu, who was pure evil by that point. Then why could Vegetto completely destroy Buu, as perhaps evidence by blowing up his head tentacle? Well, maybe since he absorbed so many beings, he took on some of their characteristics of typical mortality, while still holding onto his regeneration and general gooeyness.

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Post by James R. Cadwell » Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:44 pm

oponok wrote:Seemed to me that whenever Buu absorbed someone weaker than himself, he gets weaker (i.e. after he absorbs Gotenks and the fusion is disabled, he's left with Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo, and Goku claims that he and Gohan can easily take him, at that point). Whenever he absorbs someone stronger than himself, he gets stronger (Gotenks, Mystic Gohan).
Goku probably thought that Gohan could defeat him because Super Buu (+ Goten, Trunks & Piccolo) isn't much stronger than ordinary Super Buu. I doubt absorbing weaker people has an appreciable negative effect on Majin Buu's power, otherwise it would have been stupid to grab Piccolo.
oponok wrote:The fact that the spirit bomb was an attack of utter "goodness" was what enabled it to wipe out Buu, who was pure evil by that point. Then why could Vegetto completely destroy Buu, as perhaps evidence by blowing up his head tentacle? Well, maybe since he absorbed so many beings, he took on some of their characteristics of typical mortality, while still holding onto his regeneration and general gooeyness.
I don't think the special properties of the Genki Dama contributed significantly to Buu's destruction; otherwise the nature of that attack would be more important than the strength -- but we saw that Goku had to collect tons and tons of energy before the technique would be effective.

It's probably almost entirely an issue of power. Vegeta didn't have enough power to finish Buu, Vegetto did. A weak Genki Dama wouldn't work, an enormous one did.

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Post by Neon Z » Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:54 pm

Gotenks SSJ3 clearly could have killed Super Buu with his last attack, why do you think Buu was so worried?

And Goku said that Gohan could kill Super Buu 1.5 now, not that he and Goku could kill Buu.

And about Dayspring theory... How can Kid Buu be stronger than Super Buu? Goku states that he and Vegeta together wouldn't be able to defeat Super Buu, but Goku, by himself, would have been able to beat Kid Buu if he could use the full power of the Super Sayan 3(but he couldn't because he was alive)?

Also, it is mentioned that Kid Buu's attacks were really hurting Mr.Buu.

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Post by wolfkid » Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:13 pm

Neon Z wrote:Gotenks SSJ3 clearly could have killed Super Buu with his last attack, why do you think Buu was so worried?
true, and it was all because of that attack that came out of his mouth. Before that, the battle was equal. Strange, later against Gohan Buu tells he could sense Gohan all the time, feeling his powers increase.
Piccolo tells after that, that Buu was only using his fight with Gotenks as a warming-up. Personally, I don't believe that.

[/quote]And about Dayspring theory... How can Kid Buu be stronger than Super Buu? Goku states that he and Vegeta together wouldn't be able to defeat Super Buu, but Goku, by himself, would have been able to beat Kid Buu if he could use the full power of the Super Sayan 3(but he couldn't because he was alive)?

It's good you come up with this, because on every site and each person tells that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu1.

edit: wait a minute, when Goku and Vegeta fought Buu they were SSJ2 (for Vegeta I don't know for sure). Goku wasn't SSJ3. Against Kid Buu he was so.

Gotenks is a little stronger than Super Buu as SSJ3, I think Goku is at his full SSJ3 power stronger than Gotenks SSJ3, so that means Kid Buu is stronger than Super, if I'm correct. 8)

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Post by Xyex » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:29 pm

Actually, wolfkid, Goku states the Gotenks is stronger than him. That's why the the Kid Buu > All other Buu's is impossible. Because if SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than FP SSJ3 Goku, and Mystic Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and Super Buu2 is stronger than Mystic Gohan, than SSJ3 Goku can't be stronger. Kid Buu was created so that Goku could win the final battle, if he truly was stronger than the Super Buu's (which would be required for the Kid Buu = Strongest Buu) then Toriyama wouldn't have needed Vegetto, let alone Kid Buu.
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Post by wolfkid » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:39 pm

I can't follow you anymore, so here's my list with the strongest:

1. Vegetto SSJ2
2. Super Buu3
3. Super Buu2
4. Mystic Gohan
5. Super Buu 1.5 (dunno how strong he is)
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks
Kid Buu
9. Super Buu 1

The Buu saga makes you crazy :shock: Most questions are about that saga.
Last edited by wolfkid on Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Caracal » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:40 pm

What about Kid Buu before he spat out Fat Buu and after? Did that make any difference at all to him (other than leaving some good in him, even if it was a small drop)?
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oponok wrote:The fact that the spirit bomb was an attack of utter "goodness" was what enabled it to wipe out Buu, who was pure evil by that point. Then why could Vegetto completely destroy Buu, as perhaps evidence by blowing up his head tentacle? Well, maybe since he absorbed so many beings, he took on some of their characteristics of typical mortality, while still holding onto his regeneration and general gooeyness.
I don't think the special properties of the Genki Dama contributed significantly to Buu's destruction; otherwise the nature of that attack would be more important than the strength -- but we saw that Goku had to collect tons and tons of energy before the technique would be effective.
Even though that is a good point James, I still like to look at the Genki Dama as the perfect attack to defeat Buu because of what it represents - pure good.

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Post by Deus ex Machina » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:44 pm

Xyex wrote:Actually, wolfkid, Goku states the Gotenks is stronger than him. That's why the the Kid Buu > All other Buu's is impossible.
When does Goku ever claim that Gotenks was stronger than him? I've watched the fusion saga all the way through and never saw this claim, or one even comparing Goku to Gotenks.

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Post by wolfkid » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:48 pm

I've got those eps (japanese plus funi) and there is some moment where Goku told that 'these boys are really strong'. Kaioshin asks him if he is stronger than Goku, and Goku told that he doesn't know, he's only talking about how fast they can learn this. (SSJ3)

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Post by Xyex » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:50 pm

Fat Buu wasn't affecting Kid Buu anymore at that point. Granted, he did stop Kid Buu from killing Hercule but that was probably from Fat smashing things inside Kid's head. There would have been no change in power or personality or anything from that.
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Post by oponok » Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:04 pm

Goku never really states it, actually. HOWEVER, when Goku fought Fat Buu, remember that Goku says that Vegeta could do nothing against him, so he must use SSJ3. This would imply that Vegeta and Goku are about equal in SSJ2 (which seems to be the truth throughout). HOWEVER, I may be wrong, but wasn't Gotenks fighting Super Buu at SSJ1? Recall Super Buu is MUCH stonger than Fat Buu, who would've killed SSJ2 Goku or Vegeta. This would imply that he's MUCH stronger than Goku and Vegeta, no matter what Goku may say, later on.

Yes, I do believe Vegeta keeps his majin power-up later on, since it seems it would be impossible to survive fighting Kid Buu for long, if he wasn't that strong (SSJ2 Gohan was wiped out by one attack from Fat Buu). I actually think he reached SSJ2 on his own in the seven years of training, but the majin power-up just brought him up to the highest limits of SSJ2, where Goku was. This really makes me wonder why he "couldn't" attain SSJ3 by GT, but again, GT is fantasy.

It's not REAL like Dragonball Z.

Also, I highly doubt Vegetto would've needed SSJ2 against Super Buu. I think he only used SSJ1, since he had an easy time fighting him in his normal form. It would seem like overkill for him to go anywhere beyond that. I think the single bolt of lightning was just a mistake on the artist's part.

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Post by TripleRach » Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:25 pm

oponok wrote:Also, I highly doubt Vegetto would've needed SSJ2 against Super Buu. I think he only used SSJ1, since he had an easy time fighting him in his normal form. It would seem like overkill for him to go anywhere beyond that. I think the single bolt of lightning was just a mistake on the artist's part.
I don't remember what it looked like in the anime, but in the manga, Toriyama was the artist, and he drew many bolts of lightning.

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Post by Xyex » Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:40 pm

And there's the fact that, in the Manga, Vegetto went SSJ INSTANTLY. He didn't wait. Why? Because Toriyama was sayting that Base Vegetto wouldn't stand a chance against Super Buu3. Which means it's highly likely he WAS SSJ2. The lack of lightning was probably Toei's fault. Just as the lack of it in Moive 10, you can't tell me Gohan NEVER went SSJ2 during that moive, that would be stupid.
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:47 pm

..........All I wanted was to say I felt Boo's evil was a factor of his strength... -__-

Damn each and every one of you for acting all "OMG TATS @11 L133S~~~!! SH0W MEH IN DA SPANISH SUB W3r3 3xActyl IT SAYS TAT 0r 1ts n0T C@n0n~~~!!!oneoneone" when I SPECIFICALLY told you not to in the first post. :x
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Post by Deus ex Machina » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:06 pm

Yes, but I don't think many people were argueing the authenticity of your theory (Infact I agree), but you know how it is with Boo saga details. :P

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Post by oponok » Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:20 pm

Well, the only way we can agree with you or not is from evidence in the series. What are we supposed to do? Agree or disagree with you without giving any reasons? I don't know if your theory is some sort of fanfiction idea, and you just want some kind of discussion about your theory or you simply want to see what people say. I just thought I'd list why I mostly DON'T think that's quite plausible, but I myself have thought about it.

I guess I started the Vegetto thing, though. My bad.

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Post by Dayspring » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:18 pm

It's not that you guys are agreeing or disagreeing though. You turned the thread into a complete disagreement with my theory based on what your opinions are on which form of Boo is stronger. -__-
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Post by oponok » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:52 pm

Hey Dayspring, let's not jump to conclusions, now. We could argue about WHO changed the direction of the conversation of WHOSE topic till the cows come home, but let's admit we were both wrong and start anew.

It's obvious Buu became more and more "human" as he absorbed more beings (Gohan, Goten, and Trunks). This may or may not mean he became less pure evil, however. He still killed every human on Earth that he could, he just wasn't purely insane as with Kid Buu who blew up the world.

I think there's some logic to your theory, but then again, we could all be reading far too much into a children's manga made by some pervert with a pen on the influence of either Jackie Chan movies or opium.

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