Vegeta: Good or Bad?

[saiyanprincess]

This is a question which many people ask: is Vegeta a good guy, or is he cold and ruthless (and therefore not good)? Do you think deep down he does have a heart, and what are his motives are for being so mean all the time?

The Saiyan Prince has certainly got to be one of the most complex characters in Dragonball Z! I am just trying to get a little feedback on him.

I know my opinion, but I want to see how others see him.

[Vegeta Jr]

He starts of 'evil' then becomes a good guy, there is very little to debate about seeing as though we see this throughout the entirety of Dragonball Z.

[omegacwa]

I don't think Vegeta was ever really a bad guy, maybe he just had mixed up priorities.

I mean, if I was the Prince of the Saiya-jins, who had been oppressed by an evil warlord that I had no chance of ever overthrowing, I would want to collect the dragonballs, become immortal, and kill him too. And I wouldn't let some stupid Earth jerks get in my way.

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

[Kaboom]

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

With Vegeta, yeah, I agree. But you even try to justify Freeza's actions in any way, and I will lean down through this screen and slap you senseless.

[Vegeta Jr]

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

With Vegeta, yeah, I agree. But you even try to justify Freeza's actions in any way, and I will lean down through this screen and slap you senseless.

He was abused as a boy?

[omegacwa]

Nah, Freeza sucks, he is the ultimate asshole.

[caejones]

Freeza's a spoiled brat who came up in a high-class family of military, then political might, whose pride was constantly fed by everyone around him... and he scared people. It all went to his head, and since his family was so strong, he never had to suffer personal loss and had only his reputation to uphold... and that wasn't all that challenging. Maybe somewhere, deep down, he wanted someone to tear his ego to shreds, and terrorized the galaxy and killed innocents just in the hopes that someone would kick his ass... but at the same time, his rational mind knew that such would destroy what kept him comfortable, so we have his inner conflict that leads to extreme paranoia, such as his destruction of planet Vegeta despite noone coming close to SSJ until his very warriors put them through monstrous Zenkais and he set off the transformation himself.
Goku kicking his ass gave Freeza (hey, and Vegeta!) motivation beyond what looked most important at the time (For Freeza, it was power, pride and control... for Vegeta, it was... uh... freedom? And... pride and stuff...). So instead of just mafia-vengeancing Goku, Freeza went to the one place he knew Goku would defend... and maybe he wanted Goku to show up and tear him to pieces to show his father the power of compassion, and rationalized it (completely contradictory, because Freeza's like that) by convincing himself that his cybernetics and his father gave him the advantage.
But Cold didn't get it. Or rather, he got it... in the form of Trunks giving him an all expenses paid trip to ayche eff aye ell.

... What the hell was that?

*ahem*. Yeah... Vegeta's character arc is complex and popular and ... kinda annoys me, really. I like Gohan more.

[Terra-jin]

In a fanfic of mine, Freeza and Cold were the descendants of a very powerful race that was emotionally, mentally and spiritually very advanced. In other words, they were capable of a spectrum of emotions much wider and deeper than humans.
Some day, a mutant was born in this race who had incredible power, even compared to his race. However, he also had an extremely thin range of emotions. This caused the being to be incredibly cold towards all life - completely unable to understand emotion. The mutant exterminated his own race and set his sights on the rest of the Universe. He became known as Cold.
Later, Cold spawned a single offspring for the purpose of becoming yet another instrument of conquest. This being was also born with a ridiculous amount of power, however, unlike Cold the being did inherit his old race's emotional capability. The sad thing about this was, growing up in the emotionless environment wrought by King Cold, that the being's emotions were severely twisted. Thus, this being was tormented by an inconceivable hatred, paranoia and despair all his life. This was the horrible fate of Freeza.

That's how I like to envision Freeza. Please don't slap me senseless

Now for the topic, Vegeta was a Saiyan. Saiyans are inherently cold and ruthless, because pain and death is a normal way of their life. They can't understand what other beings would be so 'emotional' over. Their only real emotion is their pride, of which Vegeta's was severely dented by the destruction of his race and his slavery to Freeza.
I'd say he was definitely evil, but there's always an explanation for it. Later on, he manages to come to terms with his evil and put things into perspective (which is why Vegeta is my most respected character).

[Jerseymilk]

I personally think beating the crap out of a 5 year-old boy who only moments ago was informed his father just gone blown up with a planet was a pretty "asshole moment" for Vegeta. Not to mention kicking another young child(Dende) who had just healed him.

Yes he's greatly improved and redeemed by the Majin Buu saga, but I'm just pointing out he did have his cruel bastard moments in the past.

[Conan the SSJ]

I don't think Vegeta was ever really a bad guy, maybe he just had mixed up priorities.

I very much disagree.

Beware, long post:

Vegeta's evolution to good was a very gradual, subtle, and long process from my point of view. When we first see him in the series, even up to the final battles with Freeza, he's no better than a serial killing, mass murdering psycho. Sure, he has his motivations (almost all of which being villainy), but that doesn't stop him from being as worse a person as Freeza. He destroyed an entire planet of aliens while heading to Earth for literally no reason (yes, anime filler), didn't give any lick of a damn for the people killed in East City and the subsequent Z senshi he indirectly killed, then didn't hesitate to try destroying all of Earth in his own twisted sense of pride to defeat Goku in the Galick-Ho/Kamehame-Ha battle.

Then comes to Namek. Vegeta's obviously not changed, aside from the fact that he's by this point a full rebel in Freeza's empire, he's still willing to slaughter an entire Namekian village just for the hell of it and even destroying an elder that was holding a child. The only difference with him was, in very desperate circumstances for him, willing to spare Kuririn, Gohan, and Bulma (mainly because he was in a hurry to use the Dragon balls) and making a truce with them once the Ginyu team could be sensed. His very first glimmer of a change was when he was fatally struck down by Freeza, which even here didn't change him, just gave some peek into his tortured and traumatized soul that he'd buried for so many years.

Once he was brought back to life, after being moved to Earth of course, he had no problem going right back to the bastard he was and declaring he'd use the Earth's Dragon balls to help him if need-be (which luckily were stuck as stone). As Jers pointed out as well, almost killing Gohan, if not for Piccolo, showed he was still just as psycho a killer as ever. So now that Goku was gone, Vegeta wanted him to be revived and hence gave the Earthlings the proper wish suggestion, being the only reason he didn't just enslave or wipe out the planet right there so he could learn from Kakarrot the secret of becoming a Super Saiyan and finally defeat him.

Fast-forwarding to after Trunks defeated King Cold and Freeza, he entered into his rigorous 3 years of training at Capsule Corp. Along the way, still not changing a bit from the man he was, he had a fling (in reality, that's all this was at the time, not true love) with Bulma, no doubt caused by pent-up years of sexual frustration and the intense stress of his 450x Gravity training. That gave him a son, a true link to the human world and to another human in Bulma, but this nevertheless didn't matter to him as he went off into space to complete his training. He finally became a Super Saiyan and returned to Earth.

So we're at the Android arc by this point. Vegeta, his main purpose for battling the Androids at all is that they apparently killed him in an alternate timeline and hence will present as grand a challenge as he'll ever get, so he thinks anyway. He still hasn't changed a bit, still has no problems with killing innocent people and once everything was to be settled with the Androids, he'd be the first person outside Goku's door waiting for him to be healed so he could finally kill him in a proper battle. Good signs of his maintained relentlessness were practically letting Bulma and his infant son die (and would've if not for Future Trunks), allowing various innocent people to get in car crashes (most of which his own fault) during his battle with #18, and of course killing an innocent truck driver when he could've just as well re-aimed an attack he launched at 18.

Vegeta's only hope of change came when he entered the Room of Spirit and Time with Trunks, where while he tried his best to train on his own and isolate the boy, he still grew subconsciously closer to him. He even felt proud enough of him after the training to proclaim him as his son to Imperfect Cell once he was all-but-defeated, though still the lack of change was very-much present in him letting Cell take 18 and being willing to fight Trunks nearly to the death to let him do it. No doubt there, biggest mistake Vegeta ever made. So after all this, when's the true change in him occur, from my point of view anyway?

In the Cell Games, after Gohan's achieved Super Saiyan 2 and Goku's sacrificed himself, Trunks is taken out right beside him. That was the trigger, after so many years of gradual and resistant evolution on the Prince's part, where he changed for the better. He launched himself at Cell, not to defeat him for himself, but for his son. This was the first sign of true change within Vegeta, where he was no longer that psycho killer whom had countless selfish motivations, he was now a true father and attempting to avenge someone other than his own pride. The change stays consistent when he thinks of himself as a complete failure, believing everything to be over and actually apologized to Gohan, that in itself being a truly underrated shining moment.

While the selfishness and twisted pride within Vegeta obviously hated everything around him because Gohan was far superior and he could no longer defeat Kakarrot, he still brought himself into the final beam struggle to see to it Cell was defeated, further implementing the change in him. He did it, not just for himself, but for Trunks, Gohan, and the world. So he goes back to live at Capsule Corp and he and Bulma in a much quicker gradual fashion fall in love, even getting married within the following 7 years, showing he's actually settling down rather than just going off into space to conquer as a typical Saiyan would.

Despite his later relapse/drawback when allowing Babidi to Majinify him and subsequently killing dozens among hundreds of people just to get Goku to fight him, he nonetheless atoned for that action when destroying himself in an attempt to kill Buu, later even Potara-merging with Goku (at the last second persisting to put the earring on when he heard it was permanent) and coming up with the plan of how to revive everyone on Earth. Obviously a minuscule part of that animal the Saiyan Prince once was will always be a part of him, as he very nearly had the Earth populous sacrifice itself to supply Goku's Ultimate Genki-dama extra power (in a very desperate occasion to save all of existence though). He'd still changed significantly enough that Porunga recognized him as a good man (not pure evil anyway) and he was forgiven by his family for his past evils.

[cRookie_Monster]

I don't think Vegeta was ever really a bad guy, maybe he just had mixed up priorities.

I mean, if I was the Prince of the Saiya-jins, who had been oppressed by an evil warlord that I had no chance of ever overthrowing, I would want to collect the dragonballs, become immortal, and kill him too. And I wouldn't let some stupid Earth jerks get in my way.

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

wins

^^

Short and straight to the point. This is what makes great stories, when you make it a conflict between normal people with opposing circumstances.

[Jerseymilk]

I don't think Vegeta was ever really a bad guy, maybe he just had mixed up priorities.

I mean, if I was the Prince of the Saiya-jins, who had been oppressed by an evil warlord that I had no chance of ever overthrowing, I would want to collect the dragonballs, become immortal, and kill him too. And I wouldn't let some stupid Earth jerks get in my way.

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

wins

^^

Short and straight to the point. This is what makes great stories, when you make it a conflict between normal people with opposing circumstances.

Meh. Same thing could be said to excuse a serial killer that had a horrible childhood really. Yet the justice system doesn't let them off and say, "Well I don't think he's really a bad guy, just has mixed up priorities."

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta was basically evil until the Cell saga, an as Conan pointed out, his "moment" happened when Trunks died.

[omegacwa]

I don't think Vegeta was ever really a bad guy, maybe he just had mixed up priorities.

I mean, if I was the Prince of the Saiya-jins, who had been oppressed by an evil warlord that I had no chance of ever overthrowing, I would want to collect the dragonballs, become immortal, and kill him too. And I wouldn't let some stupid Earth jerks get in my way.

The difference between a hero and villain is simply ones point of view.

wins

^^

Short and straight to the point. This is what makes great stories, when you make it a conflict between normal people with opposing circumstances.

Meh. Same thing could be said to excuse a serial killer that had a horrible childhood really. Yet the justice system doesn't let them off and say, "Well I don't think he's really a bad guy, just has mixed up priorities."

Well, I am not saying what Vegeta did was right.

[Captain Awesome]

If Freeza never came into the picture, and the Saiyajins were selling planets to other aliens, Vegeta would still be having the time of his life as a mass murderer.

He wasn't a misguided prince on a quest for revenge, he was an evil son of a bitch that just happened to be somewhat justified in his quest for revenge.

[saiyanprincess]

I personally think beating the crap out of a 5 year-old boy who only moments ago was informed his father just gone blown up with a planet was a pretty "asshole moment" for Vegeta. Not to mention kicking another young child(Dende) who had just healed him.

Yes he's greatly improved and redeemed by the Majin Buu saga, but I'm just pointing out he did have his cruel bastard moments in the past.

Yeah, he was pretty mean on that episode ^_^ I don't think Gohan was five, maybe around 11 but still he did beat him up pretty bad!
Although in Vegeta's defence, Gohan did attack him first but only after Vegeta provoked him.

It's an excellent episode, I know the Prince is mean - But I like it!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v1RC_2olYiM

[Captain Awesome]

I don't think Gohan was five, maybe around 11 but still he did beat him up pretty bad!

Gohan was five.

I think the dub is especially to blame for people thinking Gohan is older during the Freeza saga, his VA plays him more like a teenager.

[Conan the SSJ]

Yeah, he was pretty mean on that episode ^_^ I don't think Gohan was five, maybe around 11 but still he did beat him up pretty bad!

Well, at most, Gohan was around or just barely 6. By the time he was 11, he was defeating Cell.

Although in Vegeta's defence, Gohan did attack him first but only after Vegeta provoked him.

Gohan only attacked because Vegeta wouldn't stop talking his bullshit mouth and taunting him to no end about Goku's "demise". Vegeta then beat the crap out of him much more than he could've, nearly making a killing blow if Piccolo hadn't warned him off from behind. He was still an evil psycho, or sociopath, take your pick.

[saiyanprincess]

Sorry I think I really need to watch the series again 0-0 Thats my mission for the week

I always assumed Gohan to be around eleven, but like you have pointed out he IS around that age when he fights Cell.

Sorry.

[Shenron]

Stuff about Vegeta

I agree on almost everything. Why only almost ? Because some components of your train of thoughts is based on filler :

-Vegeta beating Gohan on Earth after Namek's explosion and claiming the Dragonballs : filler
-His training in space during the 3 years : it's never mentioned in the manga. And don't forget that he knew, during the 1st fight against the androids, that his son's name was Trunks. Which means either :

1-He was still at Capsule Corp. when Trunks was born
2-He came back to Capsule Corp. a couple of times during his wandering (not in space). Maybe only to take some supplies, or maybe to check if everything was OK.

-Vegeta's attitude in the RoSaT : we don't know jack about it.
-We don't know if he and Bulma got married. And honestly, I highly doubt they did.

But these are only some minor details and yes, Vegeta stopped being a true vilain only during the fight against Cell, or probably in the RoSaT.

Or... maybe he began to soften with the life on Earth, and turned back to his original self when he became SSJ. After all, the fact that he's living at Capsule Corp doesn't seem to annoy anyone, not even Yamcha.