A Super Saiyan Theory

[Snail]

The Super Saiyan. The evolution of the Super Saiyan. Beyond Super Saiyan.

I have a theory that the process of reaching levels beyond that of a normal Saiyan is much more than a mere linear process. If we want to make it somewhat complicated; this is what I've 'concocted'.

I see the rest of the Super Saiyan transformations as the result of different forms of emotional realization, or even sub-conscious forms of emotional realizations. I'm lead to believe that every Saiyan could achieve a whole different category of Super Saiyans. Thus, instead of having an endless stream of upgrades from 1-100, we have different forms of upgrades, regardless of however strong one is compared to the other.

So wouldn't that mean that any saiyan could achieve their own personal form of Super Saiyan? My answer would be yes, but only if they have a certain level of emotional distress to help boost that instinct into exploiting that 'inner strength' hidden inside 100 percent. However, my vision of these 'personal forms' of Super Saiyans don't include wacky forms that deviate far away from the normal Super Saiyan that we're used to. I'm not saying that we'll get purple Saiyans, or any other strange AF looking incarnations.

We can support these claims with the non-linear transformations that we've been given throughout the course of the series spanning from Z to GT. Forms such as the quasi-Super Saiyan, the LSSJ Broly, and the Golden Oozaru, and Ssj4 transformations. These forms prove that the Super Saiyan transformations are anything but linear.

Thoughts?

[Rocketman]

Super Saiyan 1 is identical across all the different characters, Super Saiyan 2 is identical between Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 is identical between Goku and Gotenks.

Furthermore, Ultra Super Saiyan is identical between Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks, and Ultra 2 Super Saiyan is identical between Goku and Trunks.

Aside from maybe SSJ4, I don't see much proof for your theory. Correct me if i missed the point, though.

[Kaboom]

Thoughts?

Certainly a nice set of ideas. With how many variations of Super Saiyan and Ozaru we've been privy to, there's certainly room to come up with theories of how they all work and fit together.

I've certainly brought it up before, but I've come to see the golden-haired Super Saiyan stages as one entire, unified "side" of Saiyan power, Ozaru and "Super Ozaru" as another side, and Super Saiyan 4 being what bridges and unifies the both of them.

As far as stuff like Quasi-SSj and Broly's crazy form... I suppose they'd need some more thought to see how they fit it. Though Rocketman's right... only when you include those from the movies and such do things start to vary from person to person. Super Saiyan 4 is probably what shows the most variety. Differing shades of fur, eye and hair colors and such show from Saiyan to Saiyan.

[Snail]

Super Saiyan 1 is identical across all the different characters, Super Saiyan 2 is identical between Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 is identical between Goku and Gotenks.

Furthermore, Ultra Super Saiyan is identical between Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks, and Ultra 2 Super Saiyan is identical between Goku and Trunks.

Aside from maybe SSJ4, I don't see much proof for your theory. Correct me if i missed the point, though.

More-or-less,The levels beyond a Super Saiyan are merely forms of control in continually exploiting more and more of the latent powers within a said Saiyan. I'm trying to say that the evolution beyond that of a Super Saiyan, or even the evolution of a Super Saiyan can differ in many aspects if given a slight deviation in emotional distress or ability to hone this new found power.

For instance, if we include what we've seen from the films, we see a strange Super Saiyan-like transformation in movie 4. This could be used as an example of a slight deviation in emotional distress, thus altering the appearance, and force of this alternate transformation.

Also, concerning Broly; he appears to be in USSJ form, however he's literally managed to expose the utmost brute force the USSJ form gives out, but at the same time he achieves this without the loss of speed. This could be used as evidence of a change in the ability to hone this new level of transformation.

I guess, my theory is a little whacky though, as I was originally trying to disprove the thought that reaching new levels of Super Saiyans are merely the same how-to process of going Super Saiyan 1 from another thread. Then, I came upon this 'theory', narrowed it down and thought it would be interesting to discuss.

[Kaboom]

For instance, if we include what we've seen from the films, we see a strange Super Saiyan-like transformation in movie 4. This could be used as an example of a slight deviation in emotional distress, thus altering the appearance, and force of this alternate transformation.

If you're of the mindset that you need some sort of prerequisite level of power to achieve Super Saiyan, then False-SSj could be a case of "enough emotion, not enough power." If not, then... maybe he just wasn't angry enough.

Also, concerning Broly; he appears to be in USSJ form, however he's literally managed to expose the utmost brute force the USSJ form gives out, but at the same time he achieves this without the loss of speed. This could be used as evidence of a change in the ability to hone this new level of transformation.

Perhaps the perk to being the "Legendary" Super Saiyan is "no drawbacks?" I'll use my theory that the "Ultra" Super Saiyan stages are merely trying to tap into SSj2's power without proper conditioning or mastery of SSj1 first.

Broly gains crazy amounts of power just by breathing, and I'm sure being nuttier than a fruitcake would grant him all kinds of lovely and wonderful ranges of strong emotions. So breaking through to become a Super Saiyan probably wasn't too much of a chore for him. But since "control" isn't really his forté, transcending it would be far less feasible. He'd continue to grow in power, but he would never be able to really channel it into anything more focused or productive.

That means he'd get stronger and stronger with "Ultra" Super Saiyan, which is just more and more power pumped into SSj1. Being the Legendary Super Saiyan, he wouldn't suffer the same drawbacks, like stress and loss of speed, as others would. Had he managed to break through and reach Super Saiyan 3, he might not suffer the same over-draining side effects.

[Rocketman]

That means he'd get stronger and stronger with "Ultra" Super Saiyan, which is just more and more power pumped into SSj1. Being the Legendary Super Saiyan, he wouldn't suffer the same drawbacks, like stress and loss of speed, as others would. Had he managed to break through and reach Super Saiyan 3, he might not suffer the same over-draining side effects.

Which version of UltraSSJ, though? Vegeta got faster at U1SSJ and seemed comfortable with using it.

On a different tack, did Trunks actually lose speed, or did he just not gain any?

[Snail]

That means he'd get stronger and stronger with "Ultra" Super Saiyan, which is just more and more power pumped into SSj1. Being the Legendary Super Saiyan, he wouldn't suffer the same drawbacks, like stress and loss of speed, as others would. Had he managed to break through and reach Super Saiyan 3, he might not suffer the same over-draining side effects.

That's one of the points I'm trying to make concerning my theory. Who's to say that an exception like Broly would even be able to reach Super Saiyan 2, or 3? He, himself is another form of Super Saiyan ascension that differs to that of what we see in the series.

The point I'm trying to get across is that the Super Saiyan ascensions are not linear if the films, and GT are included I suppose.

[Kaboom]

Which version of UltraSSJ, though? Vegeta got faster at U1SSJ and seemed comfortable with using it.

On a different tack, did Trunks actually lose speed, or did he just not gain any?

I figure it only starts getting detrimental at a certain point. Vegeta found a balance where any small loss in speed was still outweighed by the gain in power, and rolled with it. Trunks, not realizing the weakness, just pumped in more and more power and ended up suffering for it.

The second question: I dunno. Neither of them could really match up to Perfect Cell, so I guess it's possible. But I'm pretty sure Goku specifically said something along the lines of "this stage slows you down."

That's one of the points I'm trying to make concerning my theory. Who's to say that an exception like Broly would even be able to reach Super Saiyan 2, or 3? He, himself is another form of Super Saiyan ascension that differs to that of what we see in the series.

At that point in the series, the concept of "Super Saiyan 2," or even that these powered-up versions were anything other than just "Super Saiyan" wasn't really a factor. Everyone was just a Super Saiyan, and more powerful than each other in various ways.

I dunno, though. I don't see any reason why Broly wouldn't be able to, though. It's odd.

[Snail]

On a different tack, did Trunks actually lose speed, or did he just not gain any?

In the english edition of the manga, Goku states that USSJ2 gives him strength but eliminates a hefty amount of speed. The direct quote:

" All this new mass gives me strength, but it kills my speed "

The anime also emphasizes this as the animation concerning Trunks, once he reaches USSJ2 his movements are sluggish, and the whole lightning-fast-flurry of punches and kicks are not present.

[Bussani]

Sounds interesting, and it makes sense to me at least. There's no law saying that the SSJ power has to be tapped into the same way every single time. Look at Mystic Gohan, he skips it completely thanks to that power up. And as someone said, USSJ seems like they're trying to tap into the sort of power SSJ2 brings out, but just can't do it in the most efficient way yet.

The basic SSJ state may be the same all around, but it's possible that there are various different ways of bringing more power out, each with their own pros and cons. If we think of it like a tree-branch type thing, maybe it would be something like this?



I'm missing out a lot of stages, but this is how we know (or think, in the case of SSJ4) it branches. As far as we know, USSJ was a dead end; SSJ2 to me seemed like backtracking and trying a different route to attain the same sort of power, only it turned out to be a lot more effective.

Everyone in the series seems to follow these known states, but that doesn't mean they were predetermined. One character just finds something that works and the others copy it. In most things, ki is influenced by your spiritual and emotional state, so I wouldn't be surprised if you could tinker around and come up with a new branch, but that doesn't mean it'll be an improvement.

This is just theory though. There's no way to prove that it works that way in the series, and it doesn't really matter if it does or doesn't. I still think it's interesting.

[Rocketman]

I'm missing out a lot of stages, but this is how we know (or think, in the case of SSJ4) it branches. As far as we know, USSJ was a dead end; SSJ2 to me seemed like backtracking and trying a different route to attain the same sort of power, only it turned out to be a lot more effective.

I don't think USSJ was a dead end. I think it was a harder road to go down than what Goku and Gohan did (Full-Power SSJ, aka 24/7 SSJ), but Vegeta doesn't do the FPSSJ thing and he still gets to SSJ2.

He also manages to rival FPSSJ Goku in power with his USSJ. Note that at the Cell game, he was talking smack to Goku again, despite having been OMGWTF at 50% of Goku's power a few days ago. So Cell Games USSJ Vegeta was stronger, probably by a good bit, than 50% FPSSJ Goku.

A harder road, yes, but till a valid one. It's overstuffing USSJ, like what Trunks did, that is the dead-end.

[Kaboom]

I've even thought sometimes that there may be more golden-haired Super Saiyan stages beyond SSj3, with SSj4 was only named as it was out of convenience.

[Bussani]

I don't think USSJ was a dead end. I think it was a harder road to go down than what Goku and Gohan did (Full-Power SSJ, aka 24/7 SSJ), but Vegeta doesn't do the FPSSJ thing and he still gets to SSJ2.

He also manages to rival FPSSJ Goku in power with his USSJ. Note that at the Cell game, he was talking smack to Goku again, despite having been OMGWTF at 50% of Goku's power a few days ago. So Cell Games USSJ Vegeta was stronger, probably by a good bit, than 50% FPSSJ Goku.

A harder road, yes, but till a valid one. It's overstuffing USSJ, like what Trunks did, that is the dead-end.

You're right. It's Trunks' over-stuffing that I was thinking as the dead end.

But that's also the point. He tapped into similar power using a different method. Maybe on that chart I scribbled you could have USSJ lead into SSJ2 as well, but theoretically it could branch a totally different way, maybe towards Brolly's Legendary form or something.

Like I said, no proof. It's just a theory, a what-if.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I've even thought sometimes that there may be more golden-haired Super Saiyan stages beyond SSj3, with SSj4 was only named as it was out of convenience.

I always wondered about whether Super Saiyan 1-3 was a means to achieve the power of the main continuity Legendary Super Saiyan (most likely the Ôgon Ôzaru) since they lacked a tail. If so, and if we took away Kakarrot’s tail growing out again and Vegeta’s exposure to Bruits Waves in GT would there be an intermediate level that would restore a tail to a full-blooded Saiyan that has lost it in order to attain the Ôgon Ôzaru?