Fights that never happened (but should have)

[Horgus]

SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku would probably be my top choice for a good, even sided fight that should have dealt with the inter Saiyajin drama once and for all.

Another excellent fight would probably have been #18 and Goku, would be interesting to see Goku lose for once.

I would have also liked to see a sort of matchup between Nail and one of the Ginyu, none of them ever fought an even battle.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta versus Piccolo. Preferably in the Postboy and Badman outfits.

Or at least the Badman outfit, since they were about to butt heads after Trunks left.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Tweaker]

SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku would probably be my top choice for a good, even sided fight that should have dealt with the inter Saiyajin drama once and for all.

Um… not to be a smartass or anything but…



Yeah.

The problem with that is that the fight never finished--there was no victor, and therefore nothing was settled. I'd think an actual battle to the end with somebody winning and someone losing would be better closure to the whole "World's Strongest" argument (or at least who's stronger between Goku and Vegeta).

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Chrono Trigger]

Kunzait_83 said: Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

He's no Hiei that's for sure. [/quote]

[SSJ2bardock]

Kunzait_83 said: Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

He's no Hiei that's for sure.

[/quote]

Preach my friend, preach.

[Rocketman]

Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

He was the most badass about up to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or so. I mean, he even had a shirt proclaiming it. Are you gonna argue with the shirt?

[Horgus]

Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

Yeah because Gohan gets fifty different ways to cheat and go around limitations that apply to everyone else, and sucks up all the glory with his pathetic, whimpering self doubt.

At least Vegeta's character flaw doesn't make him a crybaby.

[Tweaker]

The problem with that is that the fight never finished--there was no victor, and therefore nothing was settled. I'd think an actual battle to the end with somebody winning and someone losing would be better closure to the whole "World's Strongest" argument (or at least who's stronger between Goku and Vegeta).

Actually I gotta disagree with you there. I actually like that the fight wasn’t settled, and I think that that was the whole point; Vegeta DESPERATELY needed to get the fuck over his obsessive and thoroughly pointless quest to prove himself better than Goku at everything. He had to come to the realization that ultimately, it didn’t matter which of them was the better fighter, that there was far more to life than simply stroking his own ego.

I'd agree with that, if not for the fact that both times after Vegeta has some sort of revelation and dies, he's back to being exactly the same once he's brought back to life. What's the first thing he does when Goku asks to fuse with him? Goes on a whiny little egotripping pissyfit about how he's too good for that and will never do it. Granted, he eventually does go through with it, but it didn't really change that he was still extremely resistant to it.

And yeah, I also agree about Vegeta. The thing is that he tries to act badass whenever possible, but looks like a real douche when he falls short. This is especially proven true when he fights Broly--he comes in with this gigantic "I AM THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS" attitude, and after getting his ass handed to him, refuses to move in utter shock and disbelief, realizing that he was clearly outmatched. What kind of badass is that?

[Mike D]

Vegeta versus Piccolo. Preferably in the Postboy and Badman outfits.

Much, much agreed.

[Horgus]

"I AM THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS" attitude, and after getting his ass handed to him, refuses to move in utter shock and disbelief, realizing that he was clearly outmatched. What kind of badass is that?

A badass with Alzheimer's.

[Captain Awesome]

Yeah because Gohan gets fifty different ways to cheat and go around limitations that apply to everyone else, and sucks up all the glory with his pathetic, whimpering self doubt.

At least Vegeta's character flaw doesn't make him a crybaby.

Vegeta must be glad he has friends like you

...Is there really a need to rush to your favorite character's aid?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Bussani]

Actually I gotta disagree with you there. I actually like that the fight wasn’t settled, and I think that that was the whole point; Vegeta DESPERATELY needed to get the fuck over his obsessive and thoroughly pointless quest to prove himself better than Goku at everything. He had to come to the realization that ultimately, it didn’t matter which of them was the better fighter, that there was far more to life than simply stroking his own ego.

I find his final speech towards the end of the Buu saga where he basically comes to terms with the fact that he'll always be second banana to be about the most fitting way of closing his character arc, short of his death on Namek.

Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

Agreed on all counts.

Yeah because Gohan gets fifty different ways to cheat and go around limitations that apply to everyone else, and sucks up all the glory with his pathetic, whimpering self doubt.

At least Vegeta's character flaw doesn't make him a crybaby.

Except on Namek where he went into 'we're doomed, everything's over' mode when Freeza was too strong. Or when he emoed his way into a Super Saiyajin. Or when he lost to #18 and ran off to have a sulk. ;P

Edit:

Don’t get me wrong. I still like him overall, just not during the middle bulk of the Z era. Between end of Freeza and Buu, he’s like a fucking broken record. He’s either bragging about what a magnificent warrior he is while thoroughly dominating and slaughtering opponents that are far, FAR, weaker than he is who wouldn’t have a prayer against him on their best day, or he’s shitting himself in abject terror when faced with someone who he can’t effortlessly defeat and may actually outmatch him.

Yeah, what he said.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

He was the most badass about up to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or so. I mean, he even had a shirt proclaiming it. Are you gonna argue with the shirt?

Eh… actually I think it’s a bit sooner than that. I’d say that Vegeta’s “badass” quotient officially runs out at about the moment where Freeza switches to his 2nd form.

Prior to that, Vegeta was a clear cut villain turned pseudo-antihero who would, when met with overwhelming odds, resort to any filthy, sneaky, low down dirty tactic to gain the upper hand, rather than sit idly by and whine constantly.

Then he goes up against Freeza and… well, then the endless crying and bitching about how “So and so is actually stronger than me! That’s not ever supposed to happen! I’m supposed to be the prince (of a long dead race)! Life isn’t fair! *pout*” begins… and doesn’t stop until somewhere between blowing himself up against Buu and the Kaioshin-kai battle.

Don’t get me wrong. I still like him overall, just not during the middle bulk of the Z era. Between end of Freeza and Buu, he’s like a fucking broken record. He’s either bragging about what a magnificent warrior he is while thoroughly dominating and slaughtering opponents that are far, FAR, weaker than he is who wouldn’t have a prayer against him on their best day, or he’s shitting himself in abject terror when faced with someone who he can’t effortlessly defeat and may actually outmatch him.

I think you're giving him ENTIRELY too much credit. The way I see it, he's like that from the moment he appears up until sometime near the end of the Buu saga.

The difference in the Saiyan and Namek arcs is that he just faces off against MORE people who are weaker than he is. Just look at the battle between Goku and Vegeta, right around when Goku goes Kaioken x3. He more or less shits his pants and starts panicking. And when he wipes blood onto his glove, he just goes nuts with all his "HOW CAN MY MAGNIFICENT ROYAL BLOOD EVER GET SPILLED? I'M BLEEDING!", and cries about that for a good while.

[mAcChaos]

Cell VS Goku... THE REMATCH.

I can just see it now.

GOKU: Hey guys! I got to come back for a day! I've been training like crazy for the tournament!

*thunder, lightning*

CELL: Guess who else got to come back! You weren't the only one training. SEE YOU IN THE ARENA

: P

[Mike D]

He was the most badass about up to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or so. I mean, he even had a shirt proclaiming it. Are you gonna argue with the shirt?

Eh… actually I think it’s a bit sooner than that. I’d say that Vegeta’s “badass” quotient officially runs out at about the moment where Freeza switches to his 2nd form.

Prior to that, Vegeta was a clear cut villain turned pseudo-antihero who would, when met with overwhelming odds, resort to any filthy, sneaky, low down dirty tactic to gain the upper hand, rather than sit idly by and whine constantly.

Then he goes up against Freeza and… well, then the endless crying and bitching about how “So and so is actually stronger than me! That’s not ever supposed to happen! I’m supposed to be the prince (of a long dead race)! Life isn’t fair! *pout*” begins… and doesn’t stop until somewhere between blowing himself up against Buu and the Kaioshin-kai battle.

Don’t get me wrong. I still like him overall, just not during the middle bulk of the Z era. Between end of Freeza and Buu, he’s like a fucking broken record. He’s either bragging about what a magnificent warrior he is while thoroughly dominating and slaughtering opponents that are far, FAR, weaker than he is who wouldn’t have a prayer against him on their best day, or he’s shitting himself in abject terror when faced with someone who he can’t effortlessly defeat and may actually outmatch him.

I think you're giving him ENTIRELY too much credit. The way I see it, he's like that from the moment he appears up until sometime near the end of the Buu saga.

The difference in the Saiyan and Namek arcs is that he just faces off against MORE people who are weaker than he is. Just look at the battle between Goku and Vegeta, right around when Goku goes Kaioken x3. He more or less shits his pants and starts panicking. And when he wipes blood onto his glove, he just goes nuts with all his "HOW CAN MY MAGNIFICENT ROYAL BLOOD EVER GET SPILLED? I'M BLEEDING!", and cries about that for a good while.

Not to mention that he has a temper tantrum and attempts to blow up the planet that he is currently on.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Eh… actually I think it’s a bit sooner than that. I’d say that Vegeta’s “badass” quotient officially runs out at about the moment where Freeza switches to his 2nd form.

Prior to that, Vegeta was a clear cut villain turned pseudo-antihero who would, when met with overwhelming odds, resort to any filthy, sneaky, low down dirty tactic to gain the upper hand, rather than sit idly by and whine constantly.

Then he goes up against Freeza and… well, then the endless crying and bitching about how “So and so is actually stronger than me! That’s not ever supposed to happen! I’m supposed to be the prince (of a long dead race)! Life isn’t fair! *pout*” begins… and doesn’t stop until somewhere between blowing himself up against Buu and the Kaioshin-kai battle.

Don’t get me wrong. I still like him overall, just not during the middle bulk of the Z era. Between end of Freeza and Buu, he’s like a fucking broken record. He’s either bragging about what a magnificent warrior he is while thoroughly dominating and slaughtering opponents that are far, FAR, weaker than he is who wouldn’t have a prayer against him on their best day, or he’s shitting himself in abject terror when faced with someone who he can’t effortlessly defeat and may actually outmatch him.

I think you're giving him ENTIRELY too much credit. The way I see it, he's like that from the moment he appears up until sometime near the end of the Buu saga.

The difference in the Saiyan and Namek arcs is that he just faces off against MORE people who are weaker than he is. Just look at the battle between Goku and Vegeta, right around when Goku goes Kaioken x3. He more or less shits his pants and starts panicking. And when he wipes blood onto his glove, he just goes nuts with all his "HOW CAN MY MAGNIFICENT ROYAL BLOOD EVER GET SPILLED? I'M BLEEDING!", and cries about that for a good while.

Not to mention that he has a temper tantrum and attempts to blow up the planet that he is currently on.

Which, to further cement the issue, could be sold for what is stated to be a rather gigantic profit.

Over a cut on the face.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Actually I gotta disagree with you there. I actually like that the fight wasn’t settled, and I think that that was the whole point; Vegeta DESPERATELY needed to get the fuck over his obsessive and thoroughly pointless quest to prove himself better than Goku at everything. He had to come to the realization that ultimately, it didn’t matter which of them was the better fighter, that there was far more to life than simply stroking his own ego.

I find his final speech towards the end of the Buu saga where he basically comes to terms with the fact that he'll always be second banana to be about the most fitting way of closing his character arc, short of his death on Namek.

Then again, I’m probably one of the painfully few Dragon Ball fans who sees Vegeta as a genuinely pathetic figure rather than the epitome of badass.

The first thing you learn when reading or studying literature regardless of the genre is to familiarize yourself with the cultural context. My professors stressed that to us constantly when we was going over some ancient texts. Dragonball is Japanese born (culture #1), and the Saiyans have their own particular way of doing things which is the self-contained mythos (culture #2). So in order to understand it properly we have to be familiar with both. Now one can easily argue that America has influenced Japan in many ways ethics wise, which is true, but they also have a history where a warrior society was dominant for hundreds of years and its influence does not go away too easily. So I believe this is what carried over into Toriyama’s description of the Saiyans that is given throughout the series via a number of characters.

Now lets turn our attention to us Americans reading something that did not originate on our shores. We too have been influenced by Europe and so we see things through a modified European lens. So to some of us Vegeta appears to be lacking morally, emotionally and off balanced with reality but to some Japanese and from the perspective of the Saiyan characters (a particular group that originates in Dragonball with their own beliefs an attitudes etc.) we are the ones that have the problem. We are judging too harshly, Chibi Mystic Gohan illustrated this best in another thread.

The only thing close to a specific Saiyan trait is that if they don't like someone, they have no qualms about killing them. Vegeta says this when #17 kills Dr. Gero. Kuririn can't believe that he would kill his own creator, and Vegeta states the above. He says that the humans are the strange ones.

Now just apply the above to the Saiyan concept of honor, strength and rank. We can look at the varied histories of those that make up our own country and find similar attitudes. That is why some born in other countries find us bizarre and vice versa. Vegeta was just behaving in a manner that he knew and it took him a while to switch over to the (Dragonball) human way of doing things.