Saiyans - Galactic Wusses?

[jpranevich]

Okay. Enough questions that have answers, how about one that we can argue about?

The question: Why are the Saiyans important to Freeza?

Of course, we have the concept of the mythical "Super Saiyan" that causes him to have fear, but everyone has their own mythology and it does not seem reasonable that he would have given it too much credence. Taking a look at the Saiyans and the other races that we see during the Saiyan saga, it doesn't seem that the Saiyans are very special. Vegeta, who we assume is a high-powered Saiyan, is easy dominated by higher level officers in Freeza's army-- and is considerably less powerful than the elite forces. That lack of power makes the lesser Saiyans such as Bardock and Raditz seem even less powerful. Sure, they can conquer planets, but so can Kiwi.

It might be a good assumption that we never see "normal" level soldiers in the course of the series. Freeza's personal entourage can probably be considered to be the best of the best, as a manner of honor or a matter of his personal safety. (Of course the latter is never really an issue.) We might be able to assume that the average footsoldier is much less powerful, but there are still an awful lot of powerful races around and the Saiyans are only one of many.

Take, for example, the Nameks. They are a peaceful race, but obviously very powerful. Note that the trained Namek warriors are, by inference, more powerful than the Saiyans which were introduced at that time. Clearly, if they were a threat, they would have been dealt with long since by Freeza. I admit that it is stretching it, but we might be able to surmise from this that the Nameks were never really a threat because Freeza's men were powerful enough. It can also be argued that the small numbers of modern Nameks (around a hundred) made them too small to really care much about... BUT consider that the Saiyans recognized Piccolo as a Namek, so clearly they have been more involved as a specie in Empire affairs in the past.

Looking at the known races in the series, it just doesn't seem like the Saiyans were even special. In a galaxy of warriors, they were one of many races and not the most significant. Freeza had nothing to fear from them. Other than for entertainment, there doesn't seem to be any justification for keeping Vegeta, Raditz, and Nappa around when he genocided the remainder of the specie. Sure, he toasted their planet when they weren't loyal... but that seems more like a dramatic statement to encourage loyalty in other planets of the Empire than really dealing with a threat.

So... why is a pompus race that isn't particularly powerful so important? Dicsounting, of course, they they actually turned out to be much more powerful later. But that's just dramatic progression... wouldn't be much of a story otherwise.

[Mugenmidget]

Freeza seems to have like this huge monkey fetish, like most of the villains of Dragonball.

And, most of them have really nice hair.

But aside from that, I can't see their real importance.

[Deus ex Machina]

I think I can cover that one.

I believe what Freeza thought was most 'troubling' about the Saiyans wasn't how strong they were, but how strong they were becoming. When Freeza first enlisted them into his army, they were an entire race of warriors, but still far inferior to his own. But in only a handful of years, they had grown in strength considerably as a whole. Throw in a few legends about an invincible saiyan killing machine, and you have some reason to be conserned.

The whole Bardock thing was like the final straw; when you have a team of "nameless low class warriors", one of which who has a power level of ten thousand, and is completing missions that even the elites didn't want, then you start feeling uncertain about your own forces.

[*PINHEAD*]

The Namekians are really powerful, but note how even the warriors are peaceful. The Saiyans, on the other hand, live for fighting. And it could be that Freeza didn't know of the Nameks until then, or didn't think they were any powerful.

I always thought that the Saiyans were a rebellious race that was getting stronger and stronger with each generation, thus causing Freeza to get worried about a Saiyan rebellion and the Super Saiyan myth. And the many other aliens in Freeza's legion, if you will, could be just rare like Freeza. The Saiyans could be seen as significant to Freeza because of their warrior background; Freeza used their love for fighting for his greedy bidding. But I don't recall any moments where the Saiyans were really important to Freeza...I mean, he tried to make them extinct, didn't he?

[Mugenmidget]

I think I can cover that one.

I believe what Freeza thought was most 'troubling' about the Saiyans wasn't how strong they were, but how strong they were becoming. When Freeza first enlisted them into his army, they were an entire race of warriors, but still far inferior to his own. But in only a handful of years, they had grown in strength considerably as a whole. Throw in a few legends about an invincible saiyan killing machine, and you have some reason to be conserned.

The whole Bardock thing was like the final straw; when you have a team of "nameless low class warriors", one of which who has a power level of ten thousand, and is completing missions that even the elites didn't want, then you start feeling uncertain about your own forces.

Nicely put.

And uh don't forget Oozaru.

[jpranevich]

The whole Bardock thing was like the final straw; when you have a team of "nameless low class warriors", one of which who has a power level of ten thousand, and is completing missions that even the elites didn't want, then you start feeling uncertain about your own forces.

I agree, except that Freeza was used to "outliers". He surrounded himself with the warriors who exceeded the norms for their species, without fear. (And obviously, they *were* willing to stand up and rebel against Freeza if they felt like they could win. However they generally didn't know how far they actually were from reaching that level.)

Now, the one question that never gets resolved in the manga is how well the armies worked en masse. It's never shown and never discussed. Planetary invasion forces are tiny, because of the power levels of the individual members. No one ever fights, in the epic style, in groups. I think you could make an argument that a Saiyan ARMY, fighting as a unit, could defeat Freeza. However, I don't think they would be unique in that... But no other races are shown or discussed that had a large population of warriors. (Actually, it's interesting to consider that Freeza *never* lets his soldiers fight in large groups because of the risk that he could be defeated. )

And it's also interesting that, later in the series, Freeza wouldn't turn out to be that powerful. Outside Namek's little corner of the galaxy, there were obviously more powerful beings. (At least according to the non-canonical afterife tournament.) A merged "Super Namek" Piccolo could probably have done it, had he of just known about it in advance. Hell, by the end of the series, Krillin or Tien might even have had a shot-- if only because they had to be more powerful to advance the plot.

[Xyex]

I think I can cover that one.

I believe what Freeza thought was most 'troubling' about the Saiyans wasn't how strong they were, but how strong they were becoming. When Freeza first enlisted them into his army, they were an entire race of warriors, but still far inferior to his own. But in only a handful of years, they had grown in strength considerably as a whole. Throw in a few legends about an invincible saiyan killing machine, and you have some reason to be conserned.

The whole Bardock thing was like the final straw; when you have a team of "nameless low class warriors", one of which who has a power level of ten thousand, and is completing missions that even the elites didn't want, then you start feeling uncertain about your own forces.

Yeah. That's how I see it. The Saiya-jins were getting stronger and stronger as the years went by. Bardock was supposed to be a no body but was doing what his troops couldn't. And then there's the whole matter of the Oozaru form. Think about it for a second. On Earth, Oozaru Vegeta was as powerful as Ginyu. Oozaru Nappa could have possibly beaten Recoome.

Now, think about this. Freeza waits two more generations. Vegeta's grandson has a power of, say, 45,000 in base. The general Saiya-jin population has a power of say, 10,000 in base. And the highest Saiya-jin elites are 25 to 30 thousnd. Now, think about that a moment and then look at this scenario:

Freeza visists Planet Vegeta at the King's request for some reason or another. The King fires a moon ball into the air. All Saiya-jins become Oozarus. Thousands of mouth blasts slam into him at the same time. Freeza = Dead. So yeah, he had reason to be worried just on that.

Add in the legend of the Super Saiya-jin (and lets face it, legends are based on some kind of factual source most of the time) and he's got a small problem on his hands.

[Hikari_dashita]

Ya know it could be just the fact toriyama didn't want any more saiyans showing up?

Nah, but as for frieza killing a planet full of saiyans it could just be the fact they outlived their usefullness, or he may of just felt like it, come on frieza is a psychopath after all.

[jpranevich]

Ya know it could be just the fact toriyama didn't want any more saiyans showing up?

Of course! But that doesn't make it any less interesting to see if there's a reason in the fiction, as opposed to a reason in reality.

[Kam]

Bardock did not have a PL of 10,000, and he was utterly insignificant as far as Saiya-jin go.

but yeah, Furiza feared the legend about the Super Saiya-jinabove all else.

///

[Deus ex Machina]

Bardock did not have a PL of 10,000, and he was utterly insignificant as far as Saiya-jin go.

Just because you say so? The Bardock television special goes out of its way to say that Bardock's power was 10,000, so how do you dispute that?

[Kam]

Because, if I remember correctly, 10,000 was a dub figure, not a Japanese version figure.

Further, 10,000 was also stated as Brolly's level as a child, higher than King Vegeta's, again, if I remember right.

///

[Deus ex Machina]

Because, if I remember correctly, 10,000 was a dub figure, not a Japanese version figure.

No offense my friend, but you got that backwards. 10,000 was the battle power mentioned in the original japanese, in the dub they didn't even give him an estimated power, instead they make a remark about how he would surpass King Vegeta at his rate.

[Shenron_3000]

at the end of the day it goes like this frieza supposedly killed off all the saiyans but he purposely left vegeta and nappa to work for him(he destroyed the rest of them because he didnt want a large group of his powerful minions rising up against him and that stuff bout supersaiyans)

Freezer didnt realise Goku Raditz Brolly Paragus and Turles were alive but i guess he knew there'd be a few survivors

But his stupid plan didnt work cos Bardocks son Goku finished him as a Super Saiyan thats how it all backfired in his face! until cooler plotted his revenge and came to earth to kill goku even though freezer was still alive and finally gets finished by trunks.. but thats another story (stupid dragonball movies messing up plots...)

[Mugenmidget]

at the end of the day it goes like this Freeza supposedly killed off all the saiyans but he purposely left vegeta and nappa to work for him(he destroyed the rest of them because he didnt want a large group of his powerful minions rising up against him and that stuff bout supersaiyans)

Freezer didnt realise Goku Raditz Brolly Paragus and Turles were alive but i guess he knew there'd be a few survivors

But his stupid plan didnt work cos Bardocks son Goku finished him as a Super Saiyan thats how it all backfired in his face! until cooler plotted his revenge and came to earth to kill goku even though freezer was still alive and finally gets finished by trunks.. but thats another story (stupid dragonball movies messing up plots...)

Mannnn, it's just Necroposting FIESTA day.

[Shenron_3000]

at the end of the day it goes like this Freeza supposedly killed off all the saiyans but he purposely left vegeta and nappa to work for him(he destroyed the rest of them because he didnt want a large group of his powerful minions rising up against him and that stuff bout supersaiyans)

Freezer didnt realise Goku Raditz Brolly Paragus and Turles were alive but i guess he knew there'd be a few survivors

But his stupid plan didnt work cos Bardocks son Goku finished him as a Super Saiyan thats how it all backfired in his face! until cooler plotted his revenge and came to earth to kill goku even though freezer was still alive and finally gets finished by trunks.. but thats another story (stupid dragonball movies messing up plots...)

Mannnn, it's just Necroposting FIESTA day.

OK i dont know what the crap "NECROPOSTING" is but what i was trying to do was "CONCLUDE" this topic and bring it to a close, because all the rambling has scrambled my brain.

[VegettoEX]

OK i dont know what the crap "NECROPOSTING" is but what i was trying to do was "CONCLUDE" this topic and bring it to a close, because all the rambling has scrambled my brain.

"Necroposting" is reviving a topic that has been dormant for a period of time by replying to it, even though there's really no conversation going on (the base "necro" referring to the concept of "death"). The last time this thread was active was October 6th; you replied on the 23rd, two and a half weeks later. That's pretty much bordering on "necroposting."

Also, this isn't just you, but no-one individually is going to be able to bring a conversation to a "close," especially a conversation that is based on asking individual opinions. No-one's that special.

[Shenron_3000]

OK i dont know what the crap "NECROPOSTING" is but what i was trying to do was "CONCLUDE" this topic and bring it to a close, because all the rambling has scrambled my brain.

"Necroposting" is reviving a topic that has been dormant for a period of time by replying to it, even though there's really no conversation going on (the base "necro" referring to the concept of "death"). The last time this thread was active was October 6th; you replied on the 23rd, two and a half weeks later. That's pretty much bordering on "necroposting."

Also, this isn't just you, but no-one individually is going to be able to bring a conversation to a "close," especially a conversation that is based on asking individual opinions. No-one's that special.

Well thanks for telling me what Necroposting is, but i just saw a topic that had been "Abandoned" and i thought i'd err give it a proper burial?!

[VegettoEX]

Well thanks for telling me what Necroposting is, but i just saw a topic that had been "Abandoned" and i thought i'd err give it a proper burial?!

Don't feel the need to add your two-cents to every single thread; that can just be obnoxious. You never want to look down the side of the page and see the same name as being the "Last Post" in every thread.

If a thread is dead, it's dead. If you still think there's something that needs to be said about a particular topic, don't be afraid to start a completely new thread that examines some facet that has been unexplored.