Stupid Question about "Mystic" Gohan

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:54 pm

...Uh... yeah. You may see it coming. This is an obviously common argument I've come across at several other locales on the net, and I'm pretty sure of the answer already, but I wanted to get the opinion(s) of the expert(s). I searched pretty extensively through older threads to see if it had been explicitly mentioned, but to no avail. So, here we go...

Based on visual evidence (i.e. matchups) within the DragonBall/Z Manga/Anime, rather than any numbers "official" or otherwise...

...During the Buu storyline, who was stronger: Mystic Gohan, or Goku at SSj3?

Note that (I'm pretty sure) it's unclear whether or not Goku ever used SSj3 at full power.

::Runs and hides::

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:22 pm

Back where I come from, we used to discuss this stuff all the time and we all pretty much agreed that mystic Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gokuh. The logic was something along the lines of this (though I don't remember it very well) Mystic Gohan basically dominated Super Buu who Gokuh was very nervous about fighting without fusing with Vegeta. He didn't believe he stood a chance even if they fought together (not fused) while they faced him within his body. I'm not sure if the whole biological issue changes the circumstances but given that Gokuh could transform into an SSJ3 in his living body, that would make him weaker than mystic Gohan by comparison. Or something like that, I was never good with the facts.

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:34 pm

The thing is, it is stated the Gohan could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku if he hadn't left midway through the power-up.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:34 pm

Yeah, you're right. Goku did seem nervous about having to face him. He probably wasn't sure how he'd compare. Although SSj3 Gotenks was about even with Super Buu. Was Goku only as strong or weaker at SSj3 than Gotenks? I don't think so...

And you're right, again, about the whole biological thing with Goku. The two times he seriously used it, against Fat Buu on earth when dead, and against Chibi Buu in the afterlife when alive, his deadness and aliveness (?) debilitated his using it both times.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:35 pm

Chaos Saiyajin wrote: The thing is, it is stated the Gohan could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku if he hadn't left midway through the power-up.

I thought Old Kaio told him he was done, though.

Slickmasterfunk · Post by **Slickmasterfunk** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:11 pm

Chaos Saiyajin wrote: The thing is, it is stated the Gohan could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku if he hadn't left midway through the power-up.

Are you thinking about GT when Goku took the quick way of pulling his tail instead of letting it grow out naturally through the coffee-grinding training? I remember (at least in the dub

) the Old Kai saying that he would have been able to turn SSJ4 immediately if he had finished the training properly. Or something like that.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:13 pm

Slickmasterfunk wrote:
Chaos Saiyajin wrote: The thing is, it is stated the Gohan could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku if he hadn't left midway through the power-up.
Are you thinking about GT when Goku took the quick way of pulling his tail instead of letting it grow out naturally through the coffee-grinding training? I remember (at least in the dub ) the Old Kai saying that he would have been able to turn Super Saiya-jin 4 immediately if he had finished the training properly. Or something like that.

It's been a while but I think I remember Gohan running off to help before the ceremoney was complete and the Old Kaioshin saying he was almost done anyway... or something

Chaos Saiyajin · Post by **Chaos Saiyajin** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:28 pm

It's been a while but I think I remember Gohan running off to help before the ceremoney was complete and the Old Kaioshin saying he was almost done anyway... or something

That's basically what I'm getting at, though I wonder if Gohan had the full Mystic power-up could he have beaten SSJ3 Gotenks-Buu?

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:43 pm

Chaos Saiyajin wrote:
It's been a while but I think I remember Gohan running off to help before the ceremoney was complete and the Old Kaioshin saying he was almost done anyway... or something
That's basically what I'm getting at, though I wonder if Gohan had the full Mystic power-up could he have beaten SSJ3 Gotenks-Buu?

Nope. He had finished it. Kaio kept him there for 5 minutes afterwards

This is what happened in the manga.

Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:23 am

Chaos Saiyajin wrote:Nope. He had finished it. Kaio kept him there for 5 minutes afterwards This is what happened in the manga.

Right. That's what I said.

Okay, so that's one dilemma dealt with. Gohan was as strong as he could have been at that point.

Next point. And I quote...

SSj Kaboom wrote:SSj3 Gotenks was about even with Super Buu. Was Goku only as strong or weaker at SSj3 than Gotenks?

Hmmm...

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:16 pm

Gohan's powerup had been finished for a while before he left (10 minutes, I think, can't remember.). I don't see where people get this "left before it was over" thing from. From what I remember, the (Ocean) dub said it was over like in the manga.

For the whole Gotenks against Goku scenario, I think Gotenks is stronger since he could have killed Super Boo, while Goku said that he and Vegeta would have lost against him.

Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:01 pm

El_Diablo wrote:For the whole Gotenks against Goku scenario, I think Gotenks is stronger since he could have killed Super Boo, while Goku said that he and Vegeta would have lost against him.

Hmm... ::Thinks:: Ouch ::Takes aspirin::

Goku's comment about Buu probably being able to kill himself and Vegeta was when they were inside Buu, right? I think it was more based on the uncertainty about their own states after escaping. They were itty-bitty Super Saiyans while inside, and I'd assume their size would affect their power, especially in comparison to Buu, if they weren't returned to normal after excaping.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:45 pm

Except, they had no reason to doubt that they'd be full size once outside again. It was being in Buu that made them small, being out of Buu would make them normal size again. Anyway, it's clearly shown in the manga and series that Mystic Gohan is far stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and here is how.

SSJ Gotenks is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Mystic Gohan is shown to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. And that's all there is. Gohan is stronger than Gotenks who is stronger than Goku.

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:01 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
El_Diablo wrote:For the whole Gotenks against Goku scenario, I think Gotenks is stronger since he could have killed Super Boo, while Goku said that he and Vegeta would have lost against him.
Hmm... ::Thinks:: Ouch ::Takes aspirin::

Goku's comment about Buu probably being able to kill himself and Vegeta was when they were inside Buu, right? I think it was more based on the uncertainty about their own states after escaping. They were itty-bitty Super Saiyans while inside, and I'd assume their size would affect their power, especially in comparison to Buu, if they weren't returned to normal after excaping.

I'll make it clearer. Just for you.

Goku says Super Boo would kill him and Vegeta if they fought.

Gotenks could have killed Super Boo if he went all out.

Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:52 pm

Okay.

I think I should stop this thread before I make myself sound more stupid.

But I'm disappointed to never have heard VegettoEX's take on it.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:15 pm

Well if it ain't the old debate that certain people treat like a religion.

I've seen everything from "Goku said they'd lose in their current state" to things like "Buff Buu's stronger than Super Buu showing Kid Buu must be since South Kaioshin was even weaker than Gohan and so couldn't have made a significant difference." There's been over a million arguments(even filled with untrue things being taken as fact like lines that never were or things created by that horribly translated, mirrored manga like the so-called fpssj3(it refers to it as that when what he really said was if he gathered as much ki as he can)). But you know, Toriyama obviously never intended for people to be like, "Because this happened like this, that must've happened like that! And it's only logical that this means that because of that! And going by the laws of physics this must've been like this and blablabla!" Here's a quote from one of the very few people who understands the truth:

VegettoEX wrote:I like when people ignore the rule of "Villain << Villain << Villain << Villain" that is, ya' know... like... THE STANDARD RULE. The next villain is stronger than the last. It's not like Toriyama breaks any common molds.

He's right you know, if editors would complain about things as dumb as the bad guys appearance, theirs no way they'd let him get away with breaking one of the most important rules. Toriyama could have easily had everything in the anime that hints at that stuff prevented, and there's even a line in one of his latest works that directly hints he meant it to be that way, but many of the fan boys(who are merely clones of other people like that because they treated it like a religion thus bringing others who are incapable of their own opinion into it) shall always just disregard anything they disagree with and don't want to believe so their cult may live forever.

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:21 pm

So, you're saying Goku is stronger than a fusion he is part of?

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:29 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:But I'm disappointed to never have heard VegettoEX's take on it.

Because I abso-fuckin'-lutely hate these types of conversations

.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:35 pm

El_Diablo wrote:So, you're saying Goku is stronger than a fusion he is part of?

That's another example of the sort of things the fan boy cult have said. I've heard things like, "If that Buu were stronger than that one you'd be saying Goku is stronger than Vegetto which is impossible!" It goes to show they don't even think, if Vegetto were a bazillion times stronger than one guy who's stronger than another, than it doesn't mean there was as big of a difference with the other guy as with him(But it is DB, so it doesn't even really need much logic behind it, like I said before, Toriyama obviously never meant for people to go "Because this happened like this, that must've happened like that! And it's only logical that this means that because of that! And going by the laws of physics this must've been like this and blablabla!").

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:50 pm

I guess people like logic too much

Kanzenshuu

Stupid Question about "Mystic" Gohan

Stupid Question about "Mystic" Gohan

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