Requirement to turn SSJ?

[Panda]

I've always figured that in order to sense ki, you had to be in the "sensing ki" mindset. in other words I think they have to look for it. But that's for another discussion.

I've always kind of wondered if Mirai Trunks may have had a tiny impact on Chibi-Trunks' power-level ebing higher. For one thing, Vegeta lived to train his son. So naturally Chibi-Trunks recieved better training (Saiya-jin designed training as opposed to Gohan's training which was pretty much Namekian and Goku based; in my opinion Vegeta's training is probably more beneficial to a Saiya-jin body). Chibi-Trunks also had a different personality than Mirai Trunks did so I wonder if his more out-going personality pushed him into a slightly higher power-range.


Goten's story really baffels me. He's the only SSJ (aside from Goku Jr... but we'll get back to that later) that had no previous knowledge of "The Legend" (or whatever... the story?) before his first transformation. Yet, he is by record the youngest to ever attain the level. Now, because Trunks is only a year older than Goten, I'd say it's safe to assume Goten attained SSJ levels within a year before revealing his power to Gohan. I make this assumtion because by the time he shows his brother he is able to easily transition between his regular as SSJ state; so is Trunks.


Most of what I'm trying to say now is speculation rather than debate. Mainly just for back up research and all. I just took a vicodin an hour ago so take my theories tonight with a grain of salt.

[GI_Judd2287]

In the anime there's a flashback where Chi Chi is training him and when he turns Super Saiyain she's horrified. I don't know if that was his first time, but hey, it's something.

[Xyex]

Wow, someone went off on a triade. XD

I very much dislike the internet perpetuated MYTH that Trunks and Goten are able to become Super Saiyans at an early age because thier fathers somehow passed a Super saiyan ability to them at conception.

It's not a myth, it's a theory, just like anything you'd present.

First off, this notion most likely first came about by some fan trying to explain something that they couldn't explain, so they made up something that sounded plausible to thier uneducated mind. Granted, it is a fictional universe, but that notion is just absurd, as there is no evidence to support it anywhere. It is a poorly concocted explanation and a myth.

What's absurd about it? Seriously, it's not that hard to accept. I mean, it's a lot more plausible than people coming back from the dead, an entire planet being completely restored from rubble, people with the power to destroy entire solar systems, time travel, etc... It is FAR from "poorly concocted". In fact, it's far more viable than anything else I've ever seen.

Look at the facts of how other saiyans became super saiyans. Look how Goku gained power by fighting opponents with greater strength than his own. Try hard to remember Goku mentioning at the Cell games that Gohan had managed to keep up with everyone over the years in terms of power, even though he was a mere boy. Goku says he was nowhere near as strong at that age. (Because he had no one that strong to fight against back then.)

First, let's fix some issues with your statement here. Goku got stronger through training and fighting. A majority of those that he fought were considerably WEAKER than him, not stronger. Also, yes, he does say Gohan managed to keep up, but you've got the reasons wrong there. Gohan was BORN stronger than Goku was at the time. Goku wsan't that powerful at that age because he simply wasn't that powerful. If Goku had run into Raditz and not Pilaf first he'd have wound up dead, not eventually reaching SSJ2 as Gohan did.

Goten and Trunks sparred with people that were already capable of Super Saiyan and had unbelievable base powers. Thier power increaed because of this. We don't know what the minimum threshold of power is for Super Saiyan transformation. People assume it is Goku's power on Namek, because that is the first such transformation we witness.

Partially correct. Goten and Trunks were exceptionally powerful for kids, yes. Even more so than Gohan had been when he was that age. However, they didn't spar with anyone. It's shown and stated that Goten only spared with Chi-Chi and Trunks and Trunks only spared with Goten. IIRC, Vegeta doesn't really train Trunks because he doesn't think Trunks can keep up (hence why Vegeta had never seen Trunks go SSJ).

I will go out on a limb here and risk an administrative reprimand in saying that if you believe the "passed gene notion" you're just acting ridiculous and ignoring the facts.

And the "A temper tatrum made them transform" theory you presented isn't ridiculous and ignoring the facts? Sorry, but it's far more far fetched than them inheriting the transformation. Simply being upset/angry is not enough to trigger the transformation.

The facts are simple. Goten and Trunks are shown as being able to transform. Goten says he's always been able to, as long as he can remember. Goten and Trunks are the only Saiya-jins (aside from Bra and Pan who we barely see) born after their fathers can access SSJ. Neither child would have been presented with the opportunity to experience the emotions needed for the SSJ transformation through normal means. From these facts the most logical and reasonable explanation is that they were simply born with the ability to transform. Just as they were born without tails.

Forgive the overbearing nature of my response, but it seems like no matter how many times I explain this, it goes ignored. I would like to think the higher level, thinking, reasoning Dragonball fans of this community would be accepting of such an explanation that derives its conclusion from evidence throughout the series as a whole over a fan myth with no base.

Which is exactly why I accept the theory of them being born able to transform over the "A temper tantrum did it" half-assed explanation that is the only other option. The 'born that way' theory is based in facts and educated guesses. The 'temper tantrum' theory is based on nothing.

[Duo]

I fully agree with Xyex' on this. Goten and Trunks were not shown training with others excessively in the least. Gohan spent all his time after the Cell Game studying! That's why he got so much weaker, and the only other person he could have "trained" with like that was Trunks, which they played "Showdown" in the woods.

And Vegeta had just started training Trunks seriously when Gohan showed up and got the Saiyaman outfit (yes, this is stated by Bulma herself).

There is no way they were as strong as they were just playing with eachother in the woods for a couple years. No. THAT is the ridiculous and ignorant theory here!

Lastly, note that Goten and Trunks weren't "low level" Super Saiyan either. Goten sparred against Gohan very well and even pushed him back, and Trunks hit Vegeta's face. And Super Saiyan Trunks' blast against #18 may well have killed her had it hit. No, they were quite far beyond where Goku was when he first transformed.

[Steven Perry]

I would guess that there would have to be something having to do with Goku and Vegeta's power that influenced maybe not the kids' power, but more likely their potential or natural prowess.

Hmmm.... that gives me an idea.

Maybe, all Saiyans are born with a natural predetermined maximum power-level, and rate of power increase (surely not all Saiyans will heal and increase their power to the SAME extent?)? They don't posses their maximum power from the day they're born, but have to awaken it. Could this explain Vegeta's peak of Super- Saiyan 2 (Vegeta attained SS4 using a ray gun, so that doesn't count as natural- it's like taking steroids)? I believe that all Saiyans are born with a Super- Saiyan gene, but again, have to awaken it. The Super-Saiyan state may have been harder to attain in the old Saiyan race, because they didn't have things like gravity chambers, Senzu beans and regeneration tanks. The potential for their power increased when the Tuffles arrived on the scene, with their technology. As we all know, Goku used all of these things. Add that to his genetics, and his power will increase even higher- faster.

Goten and Trunks' Super- Saiyan abilities may have been influenced by their father's power at the time of conception; they were born with an incredible starting power (unlike their ancestors), which was almost enough for them to transform- provided, of course, they met the requirements. Their maximum power-level will always remain the same, even though they were born with high base powers.

Genetics may also influence their Super- Saiyan multiplier effect (how much their power increases). But hey... I'm probably gonna be proved so wrong.

[Mr.Piccolo]

...and don't be a girl.. don't know if that was mentioned before . I think it should just be said that they don't want females going super saiyan mabye because they don't want to much violence on females, because if someone goes SSJ then they had better be in for a fight usually resulting in tattered clothing and such..

[Panda]

There are a lot of girl fighters in the show but since it's Shounen and ment for boys I doubt they'd want an overly feminine main character. Plus, the character deisgns would probably look kinda funky.


I've been wondering about Goten, just how old he was when he first achieved SSJ status. if he's been able to transfrom since as long as he can remember than it could have been anytime between his 4th and 6th year of life. (Studies have show most asian people earliest memory is from their 4th year of life; I'm using Goten as asain since Mr. Toriyama is asain...) Trunks was probably about the same age?

[Mr.Piccolo]

This has always bothered the heck out of me. These seem like pretty sensable motivations

Goku - former rival knocked out cold, best friend is blown up in front of his eyes

Vegeta- gave up the one thing he cared about, his will to live

(Future) Trunks- best friend is brutaly beaten to death

Gohan- (anime at least), pushed to his limit while training with his father

Now these ones have never made sense

(Chibi) Trunks - seems to come naturally

Goten - not really sure

Goku Jr - A 5th generation Saiyan? Come on..

Anyone care to explain what happened here?

I agree with everything after Gohan. Let me explain a bit about this..

Chibi Trunks,Goten, Goku Jr., and Vegeta Jr.: Because going super saiyan is one of the major selling points of the series. Why do you think they wait it out in movies? I think it would be cool if Goten went SSJ thinking Gohan died against Buu, same with Trunks and Vegeta.

I think Goku Jr.'s story should be saved for "AF" *heh heh*, that's fun.

[Rocketman]

...and don't be a girl.. don't know if that was mentioned before . I think it should just be said that they don't want females going super saiyan mabye because they don't want to much violence on females, because if someone goes SSJ then they had better be in for a fight usually resulting in tattered clothing and such..

Plus, Super Saiyans get large bulging muscles and grunt a lot.

[Panda]

...and don't be a girl.. don't know if that was mentioned before . I think it should just be said that they don't want females going super saiyan mabye because they don't want to much violence on females, because if someone goes SSJ then they had better be in for a fight usually resulting in tattered clothing and such..

Plus, Super Saiyans get large bulging muscles and grunt a lot.

Well... girls bodies are built differently enough to where something different woluld have to take place when they did transform. Considering what Pan does during GT she doesn't have a very muscular build. Neither does Seripa. (They're technically the only Saiya-in females we see...)

My bet is if they became SSJ then a lot of the problems would be in the looks... the hair, the body, the eyes.... It'd look awkward. I blame it on Toei being lazy.

[Akira]

What's absurd about it? Seriously, it's not that hard to accept. I mean, it's a lot more plausible than people coming back from the dead, an entire planet being completely restored from rubble, people with the power to destroy entire solar systems, time travel, etc... It is FAR from "poorly concocted". In fact, it's far more viable than anything else I've ever seen.

Well, nothing to that effect is EVER said or even hinted at in the Manga or the anime.. If you ever took a college course on Biology You'd know what I mean by "absurd". Yes, it is a fictional universe, but you can't just say "Other impossible stuff happens, therefore a crazy, no evidence myth has plausibility."

First, let's fix some issues with your statement here. Goku got stronger through training and fighting. A majority of those that he fought were considerably WEAKER than him, not stronger. Also, yes, he does say Gohan managed to keep up, but you've got the reasons wrong there. Gohan was BORN stronger than Goku was at the time. Goku wsan't that powerful at that age because he simply wasn't that powerful. If Goku had run into Raditz and not Pilaf first he'd have wound up dead, not eventually reaching SSJ2 as Gohan did.

Gohan and Vegeta weren't out to kill Goten and Trunks. After Goku refused Raditz's "offer" he WAS out to kill Goku. Gohan being born stronger was a result of his mixed blood. It also supports my theory as evidence from the series. His power increased during *drumroll* "Temper tantrums".

Wow, maybe I actually thought about this before I went off making claims, you think? That very tantrum rage was what allowed him to become angry enough to become Super Saiyan 2 against Cell, as per Goku's plan. Goten and Trunks were of mixed blood too, so a similar rage could have brought about Super Saiyan earlier on because they had the pre-requisite strength? Seems logical to me..

Goten says he's always been able to, as long as he can remember.

He never said that.

Just as they were born without tails.

That is not known as fact. Vegeta was in outer space training to fight the Androids when Trunks was born, and Goku was dead when Goten was born. It is just as likely that, since Bulma and Chi-chi knew of the Oozaru transformations saiyans make that they had the tails removed at birth.

Which is exactly why I accept the theory of them being born able to transform over the "A temper tantrum did it" half-assed explanation that is the only other option. The 'born that way' theory is based in facts and educated guesses. The 'temper tantrum' theory is based on nothing.

Oh, of course. Drawing examples from the source material to explain things that happen later is far more "half-assed" and less likely than an uneducated fan myth assumption.

[Duo]

Goten says he's always been able to, as long as he can remember.

He never said that.

"G-Goten...S-since when have you...?"

"Umm...I forget."

It wasn't even "as long as he could remember". It was "Before he could remember".

Chew on that, along with my last post if you care to address it.

[Godo]

If you ever took a college course on Biology You'd know what I mean by "absurd".

Well looks like you didn't attend at the courses, then. Let me explain it evolutionary...
When cells split there can be "errors" which can be beneficial for the creature. In Goku's place, when he went Super Saiyan, cell reactions were being made, right? This had to be since he changed physically, and for that to even be possible, his cells had probably changed, changing his DNA.
Now another thing in this "absurd theory" that backs up the cell thing is that:

a) When Gohan was born, Goku wasn't a super saiyan, and it took a while and a lot of effort for Gohan to transform into a SSJ.
b) When Goten was born, Goku had already achieved the SSJ form, thus making it possible that Goku had passed his SSJ genes to Goten. As we find out, Goten hasn't put much effort into transforming into a SSJ. For him it's something fun.

This theory is the only "facts" that we can grab on, I believe.

Sorry for being a little harsh, but that's what you have to take if you call someone's theory for "absurd". You can tell that you dislike something gently too, even though you hate it...

[desirecampbell]

Well, Godo, that's not exactly right. If the Super Saiyan ability causes one's DNZ to change in such a way, would reverting back to your base form change them back? I'm not saying your explanation is wrong - it just seems like a far more complicated theory than the alternative (and Occam's razor tells us we should use the easier of two equally verifiable theories).

What do we know about the requirements for becoming a Super Saiyan? We know you need some kind of emotional outburst, and a great deal of power. We don't know any specifics on these requirements, we just have these vague guidelines.

So we know Goten and Trunks had great power, all they'd need is to become so emotional that they transform. We could say 'temper tantrum' but can we really state that a child's anger is enough to trigger a transformation?

In fact, we can. We see numerous times in DBZ where a young, untrained Gohan gets mad and gains enormous power from his outbursts.


So, we have two theories. Each is as unverifiable as the other. Each is as believable as the other. But, by Occam's razor, we should choose the simplest explanation.

[Mr.Piccolo]

(Sees all this talk about biology and whimpers because he's an english major)

... Ok. I think when SSJ was created, Vegeta and Trunks or even anyone else after Goku would go SSJ was not really being considered. I think it was to work with that whole 1000 year legend, so Goku is like the only canidate with the pure heart and such. Even then they refered Goku to "the super saiyan" not "a super saiyan".

I believe that part of the legend said the super saiyan led to his own destruction(might be from the dub not sure), so that clashes with Namek being destroyed because of Goku not killing Freeza asap.

So anything after Goku going SSJ is fair game. It goes from a saiyan with a pure heart to, well ok Vegeta has a heart of pure EVIL. Then it says yeah this kid from the future can do it (Gohan pops from the crowd).. "and so can I."

Then all of a sudden everyone who is a boy and at least part saiyan can each the first form of super saiyan at the very least. So in short the requirements for going super saiyan are for prolonging episodes, making villians better because if the later villians we're killed by non-super saiyans it would be so boring), and I don't know, the fact that most of DBZ commercialization is bent around being super saiyan.

(Mr. Piccolo falls completely off topic once again...)

[Godo]

Well, Godo, that's not exactly right. If the Super Saiyan ability causes one's DNZ to change in such a way, would reverting back to your base form change them back? I'm not saying your explanation is wrong - it just seems like a far more complicated theory than the alternative (and Occam's razor tells us we should use the easier of two equally verifiable theories).

What do we know about the requirements for becoming a Super Saiyan? We know you need some kind of emotional outburst, and a great deal of power. We don't know any specifics on these requirements, we just have these vague guidelines.

So we know Goten and Trunks had great power, all they'd need is to become so emotional that they transform. We could say 'temper tantrum' but can we really state that a child's anger is enough to trigger a transformation?

In fact, we can. We see numerous times in DBZ where a young, untrained Gohan gets mad and gains enormous power from his outbursts.


So, we have two theories. Each is as unverifiable as the other. Each is as believable as the other. But, by Occam's razor, we should choose the simplest explanation.

Yes, I agree. My explenation was more to answer to the fact that the DNA thing was crap =) . But of course, anger is really a great factor. And the DNA thing is more complicated than I wrote.

[Li'l Lemmy]

The whole Goten/Trunks SSJ origins thing comes under heavy debate every couple of months.

Eh. I guess I'll take the opportunity to run my mouth. I'm taken the time to read through what everybody has to say, but even so I'll probably end up saying things that have been said already . . . if not in this particular thread, then in another one like it. Oh, well.

I loved the DNA theory originally, because it seemed so simple and provided a long-sought answer to one of DBZ's most challenging questions. But the more I think about it these days, the less credit I afford it. But I don't count it out entirely. Here's what I think about it.

Le'see. When people talk about the "strong parent, strong child" theory, they'll throw around the term DNA. I've used it too, but not in an uber-specific manner; it's more like a catchall for anything anyone cares to cite biologically with regards to parents passing on the supposed Super Saiyan gene to their children. Genes or chromosomes or cells or even just the luck of the draw can be used to refer to whatever it is people are talking about when they talk about what "happened" with Goten and Trunks, and it'll all be lumped into DNA.

When talking about a Saiyan who can already reach the SSJ level himself, I don't believe that there's something actually encoded in a Saiyan's genetic makeup that (once activated) serves as a predetermined signal to make the transformation "easy" or cheap to come by in his offspring. I don't care how many generations may pass between Goku and Goku Jr.; becoming a Super Saiyan will never be so simple as to become the equivalent of flipping on a light switch.

Don't mistake that as a total dismissal of the genetics theory. I'm not saying that genetics doesn't play a role at all, because I think that in a limited fashion it does; at the very least we have the repeated mention of mixed blood to suggest that hybrids will typically default to not just having a great potential, but having it come "naturally". Obviously there's a difference between naturally and easily, because even when young Gohan threw a temper tantrum he usually wasn't able to sustain or automatically call upon that same power again five minutes later when he still needed it; he would need to master it.

The apparent strength of a parent during conception may factor into a child's strength somewhat, but we can't say with 100% certainty that this is the case. It's damn tempting to draw comparisons between pre-DBZ Goku (birth of Gohan) and end-of the-Cell-Games Goku (birth of Goten) and say this and that about the boys' strengths being relative to how strong Goku was . . . OMG, Goten's a 7-year-old SSJ and Gohan didn't do it until he was 13!! . . . but realistically speaking, there's not enough known about Goten's early years to substantiate that the two brothers were in fact born with a large difference in power that would have given Goten some sort of "edge". For all we know, Goten was born with a combat strength of 1 or 2 like Goku. Hell, even Gohan's base level was read by Raditz's scouter as a mere 1; why assume that Goten was different?

Admittedly, there's a certain illogic to the whole thing. I'm loathe to mention anything non-canon, but since Goku Jr. was already mentioned I'll throw in the bit about Broly being born with a PL of 10,000. We don't know how strong Paragus was, but he wasn't a Super Saiyan. His maximum level may not have even exceeded Goku and Vegeta's base levels; both Saiyans who at one time or another were recognized as being at the pinnacle of Saiyan power even before they became SSJ. Why should we believe that just because a parent is strong that the child will be too if even a weak parent like Paragus can give rise to a powerhouse?

On the other hand, the theory appears to work with consideration to another relatively non-canon figure. Bardock was exceptionally powerful for his generation when Goku was conceived, and of course we all know how strong Goku became. But did Bardock factor into Goku reaching the SSJ level? Mmm . . . prrrobably not. Conceivably, every Saiyan has the ability to become Super. So is there a generational gap at work here? Will one generation automatically be stronger than the one that fathered it? Goku was stronger than Bardock, Gohan ended up stronger than Goku and with constant training it's even possible that Goten might have outpaced non-Mystic Gohan when he reached his age. And as a SSJ at seven-years-old, he technically already did!

But there might be something to be said for talent. After all, Vegeta was initially stronger than Goku, who then tipped the scales so violently so as to constantly outdistance Vegeta for the rest of the series. Maybe Goten inherited his father's talent for going higher, rather than just his DNA?

Considering that, what may happen in the case of genetics regarding Saiyans is like what happens when an artist has a son who proves to have a degree of artistic talent; it's a gift, but not a given . . . and it can still go to waste, anyway. If everyone has the ability to learn how to draw, then certainly there are some of us already born with a predisposition to become very skilled very fast; it might even be passed through blood, but not everyone who can be an artist is going to be.

It almost happened to Gohan. He had an innate talent when it came to fighting (which could have come from either Goku or ChiChi really), but it was virtually ignored for the first four years of his life because ChiChi was against it. Only Goku's intervention set Gohan on the course to become a great fighter. But with Goten ChiChi actually encouraged it, which effectively gave him a head start. Gohan's fighting was very sporadic and sometimes battles were years apart, but Goten probably trained with his mother and sparred with Trunks every other day; the two brother led different lives for their first few years.

Genetics may have played a role in that it's mixed blood power and Saiyan heritage, but I'm not so sure about there being a "charged" DNA that gets passed from father to son. I still have to believe that the chibi Saiyans somehow triggered or worked for the SSJ ability.

Meh. Me tired now . . . (*yawn*)

[Godo]

Li'l Lemmy, you have TOTALLY convinced me. You have brought me to the light side! (Not sarcastic).

[Duo]

The thing, little Lemmy, is that your thoughts don't take in very much in the line of examples or evidence from the series.

Goten sparred with Trunks at random intervals in his life and we hardly know how much Chichi really trained with him, and all he'd learn from her is technique.

Trunks? No serious trainng from Vegeta until soon before the 25'th Tenka'ichi Budokai. So, most of it was just from sparring Trunks at unknown intervals.

Gohan...went through a year of harsh sheer training with Piccolo, fought and survived against the Saiyans, the Ginyu Force, and Freeza. Then he trained constantly with Piccolo and a Super Saiyan for 3 years, then had to spend around a month in the room of Spirit and Time before he first became Super Saiyan, and he still didn't become as strong as Goten probably was at the age of 7 as a Super Saiyan until he was probably halfway if not more through his training in the Chamber.

[MartianOddity]

About Trunks being able to turn Super Saiyan fast because of Vegeta already turning into a Super Saiyan when he was concieved:
Is it sure that Vegeta already had turned Super Saiyan at least once at the concievent of Trunks? For all we know he could've failed to reach the level at that point.
It would have flattened out that theory :/.