Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

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Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:00 am

So, in the Battle Power Guide, there are these:
Databook Battle Powers wrote:On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. A graphical depiction of this infers that Vegetto’s battle power is equivalent to Goku’s battle power multiplied by Vegeta’s. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide′s training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was.
Combined Battle Power List wrote:Potara Fusion: X’s battle power x Y’s battle power (Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume-p.63)
My question is: is it really stated that Vegetto's BP is "Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP", or it's simply the conclusion you came to? If it's really stated, is it really correct to claim that this is THE formula of the Potara? Because according to some statements in the manga, this doesn't seem to be the case for everyone.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Herms » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:17 pm

Well, the caption in the book just says "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto".
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:38 pm

It's not the Potara formula. It's Vegetto's formula.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:16 am

Herms wrote:Well, the caption in the book just says "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto".
But this doesn't mean that it is talking about battle powers then, since it says nothing about them. Just like another caption that has a similar "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks", while describing in the same page that Gotenks is many times more powerful than Goten or Trunks individually.

Not to mention that the "x" doesn't only mean "times", it also means "cross".
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:54 pm

So, may I have an answer from the higher ups of the site about why the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" is taken as if it means "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP"?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Herms » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:47 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, may I have an answer from the higher ups of the site about why the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" is taken as if it means "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP"?
Because the SEG's description of the Potara refers to the power-up as being like the two people's battle powers multiplied together rather than simply added, as the Battle Power Guide says. That's the statement which the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" caption goes along with, so it didn't seem like too big of a leap to assume it's talking about Goku and Vegeta's BP.
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:02 pm

But are the guides supposed to have assumptions or facts? Because one can assume that "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" means "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP", but another can assume that it means "Goku cross Vegeta make Vegetto", like in another guide, the "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks" means "Goten & Trunks make Gotenks", not "Goten's BP + Trunks' BP = Gotenks' BP", since these is a statement in the same page that says that Gotenks is many times more powerful than Goten or Trunks individually.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Herms » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:14 pm

The book says that the power-up from the Potara is like if the battle powers of the two people using the Potara were multiplied together rather than merely added. Goku and Vegeta use the Potara to become Vegetto. So even if the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" caption weren't there at all, the Battle Power Guide would still say "Potara Fusion: X’s battle power x Y’s battle power (Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume-p.63)". You don't have to agree with it or think it makes any sense, but it's a thing written in a book, and we've got it listed as a thing written in a book.
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:51 pm

Herms wrote:The book says that the power-up from the Potara is like if the battle powers of the two people using the Potara were multiplied together rather than merely added.
Isn't this what is said?
The power-up from merging isn't a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.
Herms wrote:You don't have to agree with it or think it makes any sense, but it's a thing written in a book, and we've got it listed as a thing written in a book.
It's not about my opinion, it's about what the book says, which is what I want to know. I want to know if it's actually stated that "AxB=C", or if it is a conclusion you reached.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:40 pm

I'm not saying there's not inherently a valid question under there somewhere, but I think this is a prime example of what we've enabled via the "Strength Checker" thread and some of our research: people to be so pedantic about what exactly things say in such a literal way. I know that comes off suuuuuuuuper rude, and I don't really mean it that way, but that's how I'm viewing this.

To go back to our classic example, it's like when the guide books say "Yamcha's a pretty cool guy" and the discussion doesn't just leave it be for what it is, and instead turns to "Well what does it REALLY mean for an adjective there when you say 'pretty' in that sentence?"
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:42 pm

Kanzenshuu's staff members are always adamant about their nitpicking of the details, digging into the franchise to bring accurate information that most fans wouldn't bother to look for or discuss. I can't even begin to count the number of times you've said on the forum and podcast how you love that the fact that the Kanzenshuu community really enjoys really digging in and discussing the details of the franchise too. There have been at least half a dozen times where I remember you making claims like the ones below. So, honest question, is it just because Battle Powers aren't something you care about? I mean, I'm not trying to be rude or anything either, but like you said, that last post does come off a little rude (even if you don't really mean it that way) and a tad hypocritical.

Dragon Ball has a rich and varied fanbase. Different people are drawn to it for different reasons and they should be able to discuss whatever part of the franchise that interest them, nay?
(As long as it doesn't devolve into "No, you're fucking wrong. Pilaf >>>>>>Mr. Satan<=>Lunch>>Beerus", which I'll grant you tends to be a staple of power debates. That's not a conversation or discussion.)
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I really hope I'm not right on that there, because that literally seems like they're just nitpicking someone else's nitpicking, which goes into this really weird, recursive, awful, downward spiral of nonsense :).

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by hleV » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:06 pm

In the context of battle power and multipliers, which the SEG section in question consists multiple of, yes, the "x" means multiplication. It's not a literal formula for Goku and Vegeta's fusion, but rather a really simple way to show that "Vegetto is as strong as if you multiplied Goku's BP with Vegeta's".

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:42 pm

Re: TheDevilsCorpse's response-

I totally get that, which is why I'm not even sure if I can properly describe my response well enough and why I tried to prep it ahead of time and write that I don't even know how to say it.

It's just... that's the statement in the book, that's the thing that goes alongside it right there on the same page to accompany it...

... what else do we need to get into here? Ya' know? I dunno. I guess I don't know.

I'm totally not "looking down" at you on it. I'm questioning the legitimacy of the question itself with an open mind. I really am. I truly, seriously, really am.

(And it's why I didn't use the word "nitpicking"... because I think it's a fucking ridiculous and over-used/over-out-of-contexted word.)
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:47 pm

I get it, I do. That's why I felt the need to ask.

There are plenty of times on the forum that I seem people ask questions that I really just don't see why such a detail would matter (and I'm sure I ask things that other people don't care about). Sometimes I have my own opinions on the "trivial" matters being discussed, but they really do seem so insignificant that I just I refrain from getting involved in the topic because I don't want a debate about such details. That's one of the reasons for the canon and battle power portions of of my signature to be "coming soon". I'm sorry if anyone was waiting for me to update with links, but I'm not going to. That's part of the joke.

On some occasions though, I can't help myself and throw my two cents in, and Vegetto's power is one of them. I don't care enough about Battle Powers to make a list for the official franchise anymore, but I do have some opinions on the more controversial strength issues, and it pretty much hinges on the phrasing of the various translations provided by you guys. The phrasing of the below statements don't seem like literal a literal AxB=C. I mean, "Godzilla is as tall as a building" doesn't mean he's a building, and "closer to multiplication" is a similar comparison, otherwise why not just say "Potara fusion is multiplication, rather than simple addition".

"The power-up from merging isn't a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication."

"Potara fusion is closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power."

I've heard your opinion on strength issues dozens of times from the podcast. The statements exists. It is what it is, and in general, that's about as much as you care. I personally like this phrasing of the statement though. (If I cared about making a BP list, it would prevent the numbers from being HUGE for no real reason other than the SEG giving us the "formula".) So I could just take that view and run with it, but I do accept the guide books as part of the series and prefer my views to have official backing or at least fit with the official material.

I don't mind if the site uses the AxB=C formula, but if the SEG's statements don't allow for "Goku 'crossed' with Vegeta = Vegetto" and "Vegetto's strength is greater than the sum of his parts" as viable interpretation of the literal wording, then I need to make some adjustments to my own views.
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:54 pm

The thing is, the only statement that I know that has been translated directly is this:
The power-up from merging isn't a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.
Assuming that this is translated correctly, this statement says nothing about having 2 peoples BPs multiplied. I've no idea about Japanese to examine the whole thing by myself, which is why I'm trying to find the answer here: Is it stated for a fact that AxB=C is the formula, or is it a conclusion that you reached? If it's a conclusion, does it belong to the guides? That's what I'm trying to find out, because so far, it sounds like a a personal conclusion that is taken as a fact in a legitimate DB fan site, so it is spread in the community as if it is a fact when it's not... which isn't what this site is about, isn't it?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Hujio » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:29 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's not about my opinion, it's about what the book says, which is what I want to know. I want to know if it's actually stated that "AxB=C", or if it is a conclusion you reached.
I completely understand wanting clarification, but the more and more this drags on I get the sense we're starting to look at a "what I want it to say" sort of situation. Herms has already said what is written in the book, twice, and that's really all we can tell you. It is what it is. We interpreted it one way, you may interpret it another way, but what's there is there. In Japanese, it's pretty clear what it says. But, for the sake of being thorough, here is the full text:
Super Exciting Guide wrote:Image

互いに切磋琢磨しあった強戦士・悟空とベジータが奇跡の合体!合体によるパワーアップは、2人の戦闘力の合計ではなく、「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ!

The miraculous merger of the mighty warriors who have refined each others strength through rivalry, Goku and Vegeta! The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as "multiplication"!
Does it outright say "AxB=C"? No, but really we're dealing with semantics at this point. Like I said, in Japanese it's pretty clear what it says, but all we can do provide the best translation to accurately depict what is said. So in the end, I stand by what we have in the "Battle Power Guide". Take it for what it's worth. I'm dead serious when I say we never try to mislead anyone, or sidestep the facts, with what we translate.
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:00 am

Still, the statement doesn't suggest that the Potara merging multiplies the 2 powers, it only says that it doesn't add the 2 powers, and that it works as a multiplication, and working as a multiplication doesn't mean AxB, since there are other things like Kaio-ken & Super Saiyan that work like multiplications, but not like this.

And I just noticed that the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" isn't anywhere near that statement. In fact, it comes from the manga pictures that show us how Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto... And "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" could mean that "Goku & Vegeta make Vegetto", like in that other book, the "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks" meant that "Goten & Trunks make Gotenks".

And if this was supposed to be a formula, wouldn't they be more clear about it like they were with the Super Saiyan multipliers?
Hujio wrote:I completely understand wanting clarification, but the more and more this drags on I get the sense we're starting to look at a "what I want it to say" sort of situation. Herms has already said what is written in the book, twice, and that's really all we can tell you.
Herms hadn't answered my questions though, and in his second post, he told me his interpretation of the line, not the line itself. So no, I'm not dragging it for the sake of dragging it. I'm still searching for answers.
Hujio wrote:Does it outright say "AxB=C"? No, but really we're dealing with semantics at this point. Like I said, in Japanese it's pretty clear what it says, but all we can do provide the best translation to accurately depict what is said. So in the end, I stand by what we have in the "Battle Power Guide". Take it for what it's worth. I'm dead serious when I say we never try to mislead anyone, or sidestep the facts, with what we translate.
But I ask again, are personal interpretations supposed to be part of this site as facts? Because isn't this one of the reasons why we don't trust the DBWikia, which has fan theories presented as facts?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by B » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:10 am

Something that immediately comes to mind... We don't know the battle powers of Goku or Vegeta individually at this point, so to say the statement of "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP" is wrong because it's not explicitly stated in that way seems really overzealous. Battle Powers stop being counted around the hundred-millions; there's no way you could measure anyone's strength down to a number in the Buu arc.

I guess what I'm getting at is that "Goku's BP X Vegeta's BP = Vegetto's BP" is meaningless without numbers. All we know is that Goku's BP and Vegetto's BP multiplied together trounce Evil Buu's BP.
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by Herms » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:54 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Herms hadn't answered my questions though, and in his second post, he told me his interpretation of the line, not the line itself. So no, I'm not dragging it for the sake of dragging it. I'm still searching for answers.
I gave you a paraphrase of the line, and Hujio provided a full translation above:
合体によるパワーアップは、2人の戦闘力の合計ではなく、「掛け算」になるほどの凄まじさ!
The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as “multiplication”!
Personally, I’d translate it more like this:
Rather than a sum of the two people’s battle powers, the power-up from merging is so incredible it becomes a “multiplication”.
Maybe it was a mistake to not include a full translation of the line from the get-go and only have a picture of the “Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto” caption, but otherwise I think it’s all rather straightforward. If what we have there counts as “interpretation” rather than “fact” than I think practically anything besides just word-for-word quotes of the original sources would have to count as “interpretation” by that standard. And of course there are plenty of word-for-word quotes included in that guide too, just not in this case…so yeah, probably should have just included that quote from the get-go.
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hleV
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Re: Battle Power Guide: Vegetto's Battle Power

Post by hleV » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:06 am

The only thing Kanzenshuu has wrong regarding the matter is that it says that Potara fusion is BP x BP. Potara fusion is closer to a multiplication. It's Vegetto that's BP x BP (not literally, but as tremendous as). Even the rivalry thing is mentioned in the quote, implying that perhaps that's the reason for Vegetto's unusual power up. Kaioshin and Kibito's fusion is definitely not BP x BP.

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