Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The anime and manga are relatively in agreement on Daishinkan's position as the strongest of all.

The manga outright states it, and the anime lumps him in with 4 others but otherwise holds to the idea of him being one of the strongest around as an actual fighter. With both put together, there are 5 fighters considered the strongest in all the Universes, and Daishinkan is the top of this group.

[Skar]

Zeno is not a fighter, he just has an op hax. In the ToP arc he couldn't even follow Dyspo's movements, so he can't be included in that statement. In the manga the Grand Priest is straight up stated to be the number 1 fighter in the cosmos, at least according to the wikia (I had to check it because I haven't read the ToP manga).

Zeno wouldn't be considered skilled but that might not be necessary when he's that much stronger than everyone else. Could someone speedblitz and kill him before he has a chance to erase anything or would their attacks be ineffective against him?

[Grimlock]

I'm sure someone can. Otherwise the existence of the bodyguards are pointless. If Zeno needs someone to protect me, then certainly he can be killed by someone fast enough. He's already presented a couple of major weakness, so there shouldn't be a problem.

[Skar]

I'm sure someone can. Otherwise the existence of the bodyguards are pointless. If Zeno needs someone to protect me, then certainly he can be killed by someone fast enough. He's already presented a couple of major weakness, so there shouldn't be a problem.

What were the major weaknesses? I don't remember anything was implied to be a threat to him. The bodyguards might be there to prevent anyone from getting too close or annoying Zeno because he could destroy everything if he gets upset including them. Zeno was teleported to Goku without his bodyguards in the future timeline but it didn't seem like Zamasu could've done anything to stop him.

[SupremeKai25]

Zeno is not a fighter, he just has an op hax. In the ToP arc he couldn't even follow Dyspo's movements, so he can't be included in that statement. In the manga the Grand Priest is straight up stated to be the number 1 fighter in the cosmos, at least according to the wikia (I had to check it because I haven't read the ToP manga).

Zeno wouldn't be considered skilled but that might not be necessary when he's that much stronger than everyone else. Could someone speedblitz and kill him before he has a chance to erase anything or would their attacks be ineffective against him?

But he's still not a fighter, he's just a dumb kid who can erase all of existence. That doesn't make him a fighter. He doesn't have experience, training, he can't even follow the Tournament of Power without a tablet (meanwhile Grand Priest has no problem following it). I imagine Zeno is immortal, since he's the ruler of the multiverse and the Gods are afraid of him, but if he was not immortal he would definitely be easy to take out. Goku was able to casually lift him from the ground just by holding his hand.

[Koitsukai]

If we are judging Zeno on him not being able to follow Dyspo's movements then I think it's a mistake.
That wasn't in the manga, actually he is never shown to have trouble following any fight, in the anime it was retconned episodes later when Zeno with no godpad was enjoying MUI vs Jiren, who were much faster than Dyspo. Like base saiyans being so OP in filler arcs where retconned when the main arcs landed.

We know the manga ultimately has the final word regarding these mysterious characters, specially now that the anime will follow the manga like in the 90s, and that scene seems to be a filler one that will never have anything to do in the main continuity. It's hard to believe it will be brought up or considered IMO, mainly because it was a handicap thought up by Toei to fill time and hype a guy.

I agree with Skar that the bodyguards might be there to keep Zeno at bay, away from the impulse of blowing everything up more than they are to keep him safe because he is too weak. An army of Merged Zamasu flew away in panic when Zeno was charging his attack, if he were such a bitch, they would at least have tried to hit him. After all, it was the guy they were trying to dethrone.
Freeza had bodyguards too, that doesn't mean he was nothing without them

[Grimlock]

What were the major weaknesses?

Since it was established he wasn't a fighter, everything that comes with it: lack of perception, can't keep up with high speeds, he can't deliver a punch, he's simply not a fighter, and that is a major weakness for a god like him. All that it was shown was him with a skill to erase an Universe, which it alone doesn't really make him a threat. Again, by the time Zeno closes his hand to erase someone/something, someone else can wipe him out if fast enough, and since Zeno isn't a fighter, he is weak, which also means this someone else doesn't even need to be that powerful to defeat/kill Zeno.

[Skar]

Since it was established he wasn't a fighter, everything that comes with it: lack of perception, can't keep up with high speeds, he can't deliver a punch, he's simply not a fighter, and that is a major weakness for a god like him. All that it was shown was him with a skill to erase an Universe, which it alone doesn't really make him a threat. Again, by the time Zeno closes his hand to erase someone/something, someone else can wipe him out if fast enough, and since Zeno isn't a fighter, he is weak, which also means this someone else doesn't even need to be that powerful to defeat/kill Zeno.

Like Koitsukai pointed out, Zeno only struggled to see Dyspo in the anime and wasn't consistent with how he was able to keep up with MUI and Jiren. Is there anything that indicates he's weak or can't throw a punch? Not being a skilled fighter doesn't mean he's weak otherwise we wouldn't have so many characters that had little to no training and still a threat due to their power. Hearts is the only character so far that tried to kill Zeno and he was looking for a power-up first which implies it requires more than surprising and killing Zeno before he could erase.

[Dragon Wukong]

It should be noted that even if Zeno is explicitly not a fighter (and doesn't have the keen eye to keep up with faster combat) there is evidence that as far as pure strength is concerned he's still above the gods of destruction. Along with the angels, Zeno was the only one unaffected by Rumsshi's shout in the manga, which knocked out the kaioshin and stunned Goku and the other GoDs.

This would suggest that in terms of outright durability and strength Zeno is indeed above the level of many other fighters in the series.

[Cipher]

It should be noted that even if Zeno is explicitly not a fighter (and doesn't have the keen eye to keep up with faster combat) there is evidence that as far as pure strength is concerned he's still above the gods of destruction. Along with the angels, Zeno was the only one unaffected by Rumsshi's shout in the manga, which knocked out the kaioshin and stunned Goku and the other GoDs.

This would suggest that in terms of outright durability and strength Zeno is indeed above the level of many other fighters in the series.

It could also be the case that he doesn't "work" like ordinary beings, and isn't prone to the same kind of strain that cause the Kaioshin to konk out.

There's some wishy-washiness there in terms of general constitution vs. outright power anyway, since the Universe 7 Kaioshin topples over while Goku remains standing, and by and large everything still points to the Kaioshin clocking in over base Goku in terms of raw power, even if it's easy to forget. (The last word on base Goku in terms of what we might assume to affect the manga's continuity remains Beerus' assessment of him near the beginning of Battle of Gods.)

For what it's worth in terms of the larger conversation, I feel both versions make it fairly clear that the Grand Priest is on top when it comes to the characters' traditional definition of strength--how hard can this person punch, how fast can they move, etc.--while Zeno is to be feared for other reasons.

[Grimlock]

Zeno only struggled to see Dyspo in the anime and wasn't consistent with how he was able to keep up with MUI and Jiren.

Well, if you don't follow the anime continuity, I think you can ignore it then. I don't remember if Zeno could keep up with Ultra Instinct, but if that happened, then it's just another writing problem.

Not being a skilled fighter doesn't mean he's weak otherwise we wouldn't have so many characters that had little to no training and still a threat due to their power.

Yeah, but it was outright stated that he isn't a fighter, not "he isn't a skilled fighter". You'd have a point if they stated the latter. May you give me a couple of examples of these characters? I remembered Uub, but he is a fighter, he just lacks training. It's a different case. You'll need more than just training to make a simple farmer with shotgun into a real fighter, hopefully that makes my point clear.

Hearts is the only character so far that tried to kill Zeno and he was looking for a power-up first which implies it requires more than surprising and killing Zeno before he could erase.

Yes, but we have to consider other factors. Does Heart know Zeno to know if he actually needed the Universal Seed? Couldn't there be a possibility that he needed it only to assure that no one would upset his plan (like Daishinkan, for example)? In terms of raw power, Hearts demonstrated that not only he is a fighter, but a strong one, so that alone would allow him to kill Zeno if the latter hadn't the erase ability. Probably the Universal Seed would grant Hearts just the speed necessary to reach Zeno before he closes his hands? Who knows, but we have to consider all this.

[Skar]

Yeah, but it was outright stated that he isn't a fighter, not "he isn't a skilled fighter". You'd have a point if they stated the latter. May you give me a couple of examples of these characters? I remembered Uub, but he is a fighter, he just lacks training. It's a different case. You'll need more than just training to make a simple farmer with shotgun into a real fighter, hopefully that makes my point clear.

I meant characters like Uub, Toei Broly, and Freeza who were born with high power levels. Not a "fighter" might mean that Zeno isn't a martial artist not literally that he can't fight at all and is weak.

Yes, but we have to consider other factors. Does Heart know Zeno to know if he actually needed the Universal Seed? Couldn't there be a possibility that he needed it only to assure that no one would upset his plan (like Daishinkan, for example)? In terms of raw power, Hearts demonstrated that not only he is a fighter, but a strong one, so that alone would allow him to kill Zeno if the latter hadn't the erase ability. Probably the Universal Seed would grant Hearts just the speed necessary to reach Zeno before he closes his hands? Who knows, but we have to consider all this.

I think we would need to confirmation that Zeno is weak enough to kill without this power-up before needing to consider these other factors. If something is unclear, usually the most straightforward assumption is what they intended. All we know is that Hearts wanted to overthrow Zeno. Unless we get more details later, we're left to assume Hearts didn't think he could kill Zeno without the Universe Seed which increased his power.

[Grimlock]

I meant characters like Uub, Toei Broly, and Freeza who were born with high power levels. Not a "fighter" might mean that Zeno isn't a martial artist not literally that he can't fight at all and is weak.

Shouldn't that be specified then? Again we go back to "fighter" and "skilled fighter", two different things. If he can fight and is somewhat strong, shouldn't Whis had said the latter in the first place? And if that is the case, what is the point of the bodyguards?

I take that if someone isn't a fighter in Dragon Ball world, then they are not prone to it, i.e they are regular individual. I don't see how someone couldn't be a fighter but can still fight, kind of contradictory. The characters you mentioned are all fighters, just not skilled ones.

[Jack Bz]

Shin has this to say, re: the omni king:



This is in a timeline where all Kaioshins, GoDs and angels are dead, and Shin is absolutely certain that Zeno is still alive despite Zamasu trying to kill all the gods.

As for whether he is a fighter, I probably agree that he knows next to nothing and doesn't have all that much knowledge on ki control. But I think it's pretty clear that he's not just a vulnerable alien who keeps people at bay with his hax power, but that he is most likely invincible save for possibly a wish from the super dragon balls to erase him.

[Koitsukai]

I would add that a hivemind army of Perfect Blue level characters just flew away from him in panic, had no intention of standing up to him or attempt anything even when Zeno was disoriented and with no bodyguards. They ran away even before Zeno started to charge his attack.
For sure there's more to Zeno than what we've been told, in spite of Toei's silly attempt to make him overwhelmed by a filler fight.

[Miracles]

I think this discussion about the Omni king is redundant. It was stated that no one can beat him.
Doesn't really matter if he knows how to fight or not. He still wins against everyone and everything.
Zeno not able to follow certain battles yet can follow Jiren vs UI Goku is the epitome of "gag scenes."

Since drafts are coming in three days, hinting at a proposed UI vs Moro fight. I want to post something concerning DB's real story line. In order to get a grasp on the plot behind the current UI and antagonist assumed bout. I think we all understand that Dragonball Super is the "continuation" of Akira Toriyama's Dragonball. Which is adapted from "Akira Toriyama's original drafted plot lines." Even when writing Battle of Gods, Toriyama determined to perpetuate the essence of Super's intrigue from DB. Admitting that he had "forgotten" about story aspects, going back and rereading a bit through his manga to"recall the feelings of it again".

Therefore DBS continues the story schemes of Toriyama's original world, Dragonball. Why is this important? It recycles an eternal theme that Toriyama has when writing a fighting manga. Particularly Dragonball and Dragonball Super. Toriyama repeats this narrative more than once, that "stronger and stronger enemies keep appearing".Emphasizing that a new enemy being weaker than the last won't be satisfying to the reader. That was stated in 2003 by Toriyama himself. Now fast forward to 2013, during BoG, Toriyama himself says confirms Nozawa, about the next enemy "ALWAYS" being the "strongest." Toriyama even reaffirms his reasons in that same interview. Stating you can't have people telling you that the next enemy was weaker than the last.

Toriyama repeats these sentiments in other interviews too. Plainly stating that enemies always escalates in power in his battle stories. People may object to this. Using Beerus from BoG still being stronger than Golden Freeza from RoF. Yeah Toriyama explained why that is the case. He simply made Goku lose to Beerus in order to"preserve the dignity of Beerus" who was stated to be the strongest there is in the universe [including Freeza]. The loss to Beerus also gave Goku a "future goal to shoot for." Therefore solidifying Beerus for a long term desire [As supported by the Oracle fish's prophecy].

People also argue "feats" in trying to debunk the factual narrative of the next enemy being greater than the last. However, Toriyama has stated that depicting enemies strength is limited in comparison to the last . He says that again in the BoG interview with Nozawa. Even Toyotaro states he has trouble drawing battle scenes. So one going on the way a fight is portrayed compared to the lat to establish who is stronger isn't wise. Since DBS hasn't been clear in this department and now we know why.

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

[FishermanJohnWest]

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

[GodVegetto91]

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

That doesn’t make any sense. If Beerus’ power gets “retconned” again to stay on top of Goku, (even with his current MUI level), then he also surpasses Broly! Naturally!
Beerus is the moving goal post here, not Broly, not Jiren, not Moro-73 or anyone else.

It’s possible they make Beerus above Moro-73. Highly possible indeed. We just don’t know exactly at the moment.

But 1 thing is absolutely certain!

Moro-73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren!

That’s what Toriyama is saying in all these interviews posted above here. Keep things simple. Follow Occam’s Razor as your God.

[FishermanJohnWest]

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

That doesn’t make any sense. If Beerus’ power gets “retconned” again to stay on top of Goku, (even with his current MUI level), then he also surpasses Broly! Naturally!
Beerus is the moving goal post here, not Broly, not Jiren, not Moro-73 or anyone else.

It’s possible they make Beerus above Moro-73. Highly possible indeed. We just don’t know exactly at the moment.

But 1 thing is absolutely certain!

Moro-73 > Prime Moro > Broly > Jiren!

That’s what Toriyama is saying in all these interviews posted above here. Keep things simple. Follow Occam’s Razor as your God.

It actually makes loads of sense

Doesn't mean Beerus > MUI Goku in this or Omen or Moro73 this arc, it doesn't mean he is > Broly, cause Broly scaled to Beerus.

The series need to prove Goku statement wrong when he compared Broly to Beerus, until then, Broly is => Beerus, and is riding shot gun also. And anyone Broly or Beerus scales higher then, they both follow each other

[Miracles]

So, with that stated Moro is the current undisputed strongest enemy Goku is facing. Since he will be facing a much stronger UI than ever before. I'm excited to see what's to come of this groundbreaking battle. Seeing UI for the first time since the TOP.

If Beerus has been up scaled in the series, then anyone who scales with him gets up scaled as well.

Meaning unless Moro is > Beerus, he ain't > Broly

Cause it's as you said, next enemies are usually stronger UNLESS it's Beerus, and with Broly scaling to that exception, Broly himself becomes an exception.

Broly is not the prophetic Saiyan to become a rival for Beerus. Goku and Vegeta are. Broly is not an exception to the rule at all.