Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Dbzfan94]

Nearly every villain from the Piccolo Daimao arc to the Boo arc (including movies) have been under that archetype. We don’t need another drop in that ocean. Besides it could be debated that this Broli isn’t a villain and is merely just an antagonist.

If it isn’t broke, there’s no need to fix it.

[WittyUsername]

The blame is ultimately on Shueisha, Toei, & Bandai for overexaggerating one single trait when marketing or referring to Broly. Instead of focusing on his other antagonistic traits, his sadistic, cruel nature.

We even got glimpses of that in M10, when Broly tricked Gohan into thinking Broly was going to shoot a blast at him, but ended up heading towards Videl instead. And then he just laughed. That's the kind of fucked-up shit that earns good villains their stripes.

This. So much this, especially the last paragraph. That is what makes me enjoy a villain. I don’t give a flying fuck about their bad childhood. I want to see them do twisted shit and enjoy every minute of it.

Nearly every villain from the Piccolo Daimao arc to the Boo arc (including movies) have been under that archetype. We don’t need another drop in that ocean. Besides it could be debated that this Broli isn’t a villain and is merely just an antagonist.

Wouldn’t Freeza technically qualify as the villain of this movie?

[Mister_Popo]

The blame is ultimately on Shueisha, Toei, & Bandai for overexaggerating one single trait when marketing or referring to Broly. Instead of focusing on his other antagonistic traits, his sadistic, cruel nature.

Nope, in the contrary, that's exactly what makes this Broly intresting. WTF would we be with a mere copycat of a character we have seen in THREE movies already.

[Dbzfan94]

The blame is ultimately on Shueisha, Toei, & Bandai for overexaggerating one single trait when marketing or referring to Broly. Instead of focusing on his other antagonistic traits, his sadistic, cruel nature.

Nope, in the contrary, that's exactly what makes this Broly intresting. WTF would we be with a mere copycat of a character we have seen in THREE movies already.

Here’s a thought.

They make an entirely new character instead of rehashing movie 8 which came out like 23 years ago purely for fanservice.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

If it isn’t broke, there’s no need to fix it.

It may not be broken but repeating a formula over and over eventually gets tiring and loses its luster.

[Helios518]

Nearly every villain from the Piccolo Daimao arc to the Boo arc (including movies) have been under that archetype. We don’t need another drop in that ocean. Besides it could be debated that this Broli isn’t a villain and is merely just an antagonist.

If it isn’t broke, there’s no need to fix it.

There’s nothing broken with either archetype of characters, but sticking to one gets stale and characters end up becoming copycat. If you want your same old generically evil character, then good news, you have many arcs and movies you can watch.

[Mister_Popo]

Nope, in the contrary, that's exactly what makes this Broly intresting. WTF would we be with a mere copycat of a character we have seen in THREE movies already.

Here’s a thought.

They make an entirely new character instead of rehashing movie 8 which came out like 23 years ago purely for fanservice.

This was marketed as 'fanservice the movie', so what did you expect?
Gogeta is pure fanservice as well. does it make the movie worse than if UI or a brand new transformation would be in it?
I think it does an excellent job blending several existing concepts of "non-canon" and "canon" together into an all new story.
Btw: forget modern DB without fanservice, you better stop watching altogether then.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Super has really only had one true villain and that is zamasu.

Beerus = Ally

Hit- antagonist and friendly with goku

Jiren - antagonist and superman in his own universe

Broly - pure saiyan version of gohan, misled by his dad and freeza

Even freeza is considered a buddy and non threat by goku.

[Mister_Popo]

Super has really only had one true villain and that is zamasu.

Beerus = Ally

Hit- antagonist and friendly with goku

Jiren - antagonist and superman in his own universe

Broly - pure saiyan version of gohan, misled by his dad and freeza

Even freeza is considered a buddy and non threat by goku.

Broly is no longer a single archetype without deviating, he has become a truely intresting 'complex' or 'realistic' character in this rewrite in my opinion.

If they don't apply characterization, TOEI or Toriyama is taking us for dummies.
If they do apply characterization and use characters with different sides, they appear to be raping existing characters or refuse to obey cliches.
Some people will never ever be satisfied.

[Amir]

Thank you. Whether you like it or not, he’s not just KAKAROT in movie 8. Even then I prefer it over “he’s a good boy” full blooded Saiyan version of Gohan

The blame is ultimately on Shueisha, Toei, & Bandai for overexaggerating one single trait when marketing or referring to Broly. Instead of focusing on his other antagonistic traits, his sadistic, cruel nature.

We even got glimpses of that in M10, when Broly tricked Gohan into thinking Broly was going to shoot a blast at him, but ended up heading towards Videl instead. And then he just laughed. That's the kind of fucked-up shit that earns good villains their stripes.

This. So much this, especially the last paragraph. That is what makes me enjoy a villain. I don’t give a flying fuck about their bad childhood. I want to see them do twisted shit and enjoy every minute of it.

So basically you just want them to be some one dimensional evil for the sake of it type character who enjoys terrorizing everything in his path with his evil smile on like the rest of the DB villains?

That's fine, but not everyone is you so you should understand why people would want something better, less bland and overused.

[Cetra]

That's fine, but not everyone is you so you should understand why people would want something better, less bland and overused.

Original Broly was not one-dimensional and bland. He was a victim of his own power. And if you don't believe me, check the scene where Paragus actually put the circlet on him. Broly was completely normal when he woke up, even shocked by his father trying to do that and talked to him, struggled like a normal person to not get the circlet instead of waking up and immediately unleashing the power or whatever. The moment he unleashed power - so directly afterwards - he was overcome by his own power again he became the sadistic madman again. You see this was not an ordinary state he lived with all the time. Instead he suffered from it occasionally. He was an evil person that you could actually feel sorry for if you took the time to actually look behind the most superficial parts of him. He is not as the teenies say "evil just for the lulz". There is a bit more than that. Granted that evil stuff and side is very very entertaining for me, too. But it is not where Broly begins and ends.

This is what people seem to not see. The "calm normal" guy that we can see form circlet Broly does exist within Broly. You could even see that without that scene because the circlet itself is not supposed to literally mind control (at least not what I think of when somebody uses that term) but simply regulate/control (in terms of decreasing it) that overflow that drives him mad so it is obvious that while admittedly it is through an external source, the behaviour we see very well shows what Broly can be. It is what Broly is when not overwhelmed by his own power. And as said, we even had a past example of that. And what many people do also not seem to see is that Broly in all his power-driven rampage as a LSSJ is also absolutely unforgiving and vindictive. The man LEFT THE BATTLEFIELD like he did not care about his opponents just to kill his father who put the circlet on him and then left him to die on the planet in the present.

Broly is not half as one-dimensional as people confabulate. He is a cliché with some nuances.

So if by "better" you mean conditioned and frightened poor dog Super Broly, a character that only really has one side but an emphasized one and completely misses out on what Broly is, then I cannot agree. If I want a Broly that I feel sorry for then I probably go for the one that they literally tried to kill as a BABY and threw in a garbage heap together with his father, not the exiled one whose greatest disadvantage of being exiled is the fear of being electrocuted whenever he gets overwhelmed by power or not knowing water or whatever, you know, the Broly who is well aware of what kind of crap he does as a LSSJ but cannot actually do anything against being evil because his power blends in to much with his nature as a Saiyajin, blinding him, his system with too much joy of following that drive.

[Mister_Popo]

That's fine, but not everyone is you so you should understand why people would want something better, less bland and overused.

Original Broly was not one-dimensional and bland. He was a victim of his own power. And if you don't believe me, check the scene where Paragus actually put the circlet on him. Broly was completely normal when he woke up, even shocked by his father trying to do that and talked to him, struggled like a normal person to not get the circlet instead of waking up and immediately unleashing the power or whatever. The moment he unleashed power - so directly afterwards - he was overcome by his own power again he became the sadistic madman again. He was an evil person that you could actually feel sorry for if you took the time to actually look behind the most superficial parts of him. He is not as the teenies say "evil just for the lulz". There is a bit more than that. Granted that evil stuff and side is very very entertaining for me, too. But it is not where Broly begins and ends.

This is what people seem to not see. The "calm normal" guy that we can see form circlet Broly does exist within Broly. You could even see that without that scene because the circlet itself is not supposed to literally mind control but simply regulate/control (in terms of decreasing it) that overflow that drives him mad so it is obvious that while admittedly it is through an external source, the behaviour we see very well shows what Broly can be. It is what Broly is when not overwhelmed by his own power. And as said, we even had a past example of that. And what many people do also not seem to see is that Broly in all his power-driven rampage as a LSSJ is also absolutely unforgiving and vindictive. The man LEFT THE BATTLEFIELD like he did not care about his opponents just to kill his father who put the circlet on him and then left him to die on the planet in the present.

Broly is not half as one-dimensional as people confabulate. He is a cliché with some nuances.

So if my "better" you mean conditioned and frightened poor dog Super Broly, a character that only really has one side but an emphasized one and completely misses out on what Broly is, then I cannot agree.

So you basically disagree the Broly from movies 8 of 10 is a less fleshed out character than the Broly we get to see now?
At least we get a lot more insight now about his past and exactly why he goes bananas, in movie 8 we've gotten the famous knife scene and that's about it, besides the 80s/90s villain cliche that's presented later on.
Besides that, Broly didn't have any multiple charactersides whatsoever that are typical for modern fiction villains. He basically was Mumm-Ra with a green aura. Even Zamasu, who was a way more typical / traditional 'villain' than Broly, had a lot more intresting characterization than Broly from movie 8.

[Cetra]

So you basically disagree the Broly from movies 8 of 10 is a less fleshed out character than the Broly we get to see now?
At least we get a lot more insight now about his past and exactly why he goes bananas, in movie 8 we've gotten the famous knife scene and that's about it, besides the 80s/90s villain cliche that's presented later on.
Besides that, Broly didn't have any multiple charactersides whatsoever that are typical for modern fiction villains. He basically was Mumm-Ra with a green aura. Even Zamasu, who was a way more typical / traditional 'villain' than Broly, had way more intresting characterization than Broly from movie 8.

I disagree that he is LESS fleshed out than the non-director's cut Super Broly. I don't know what they did cut. I do not know what a Mumm-Ra is so I cannot comment on that. But yes, I very well think Broly has some very typical sides on him as well like good old anime villain arrogant assh*le, which most know him for. I also think it is not really fair to say "at least" because a) the old movie is shorter and b) Toriyama-san wrote the new movie after watching it and thinking what he could do instead. So of course he did more past stuff if it was not enough for him. It went hand in hand with the whole past stuff in the first place as he added Minus. How much more do you have to show your audience to make them feel sorry for your character? Isn't a stabbed baby radical enough? And its not even all of it. I am merely mentionig that because if one thinks about it it is such an extreme thing, under normal circumstances one should even consider that a no-go - which they obviously understood as they only showed the shadow.

Things are pretty easy for me. Toriyama-san says Toei did not understand Goku (which I consider ridiculous because the whole stuff he complained about was in the original anime nonetheless despite their hero exaggeration). I say he did not understand Broly. Especially not what makes Broly Broly for the fans. He thought "tough strong guy in big form" is all. Well, NO. I as a major Broly fan tell you, it is not. It is a bit more than that. Especially not considering how sneakily the whole transformation happened in this movie and how magic-less it seemed to be. As mentioned by me already, even that was just reduced to another Freeza, Roshi, Bojack 100% Power form.

I don't know what you mean with Zamasu because anime Zamasu is as far as I am concerned the best written Dragon Ball villain, maybe even character in the entire franchise. If you want to argue how much overused stuff characters have as traits let me just say that after hundreds of years of literature there is not really anything new.

[TheRed259]

Watched a subbed video from the Vegeta Vs Broly fight.

Broly is out of the water after Super Saiyan God Vegeta's blast. Vegeta then asks Goku ''Hey Kakarot, did you bring any senzu''?

Did anybody else find this weird? Vegeta was winning up until this point, he didn't get any major beat down and then he sees Broly powering up and screaming and all of a sudden he is looking for senzu beans?

Vegeta got scared so easily and starts asking for senzu beans? I also remember him not liking using them (remember when Trunks gave him one in the Cell Games) and now he wants them even if he is (still) not defeated?

Vegeta ADMITTED DEFEAT there without even fighting first???

[Mister_Popo]

Watched a subbed video from the Vegeta Vs Broly fight.

Broly is out of the water after Super Saiyan God Vegeta's blast. Vegeta then asks Goku ''Hey Kakarot, did you bring any senzu''?

Did anybody else find this weird? Vegeta was winning up until this point, he didn't get any major beat down and then he sees Broly powering up and screaming and all of a sudden he is looking for senzu beans?

Vegeta got scared so easily and starts asking for senzu beans? I also remember him not liking using them (remember when Trunks gave him one in the Cell Games) and now he wants them even if he is (still) not defeated?

Vegeta ADMITTED DEFEAT there without even fighting first???

I think the senzu bean-reference is to make the scene when Broly goes 'Ikari' look even more dramatic.
Like 'how the hell are we ever gonna beat this guy?'

[Dbzfan94]

So basically you just want them to be some one dimensional evil for the sake of it type character who enjoys terrorizing everything in his path with his evil smile on like the rest of the DB villains?

That's fine, but not everyone is you so you should understand why people would want something better, less bland and overused.

Basically, yeah. And being "Evil for the sake of it" doesnt automatically make a character bland and/or one dimensional. Freeza and Orochimaru from Naruto are two examples.

But thats my whole point. Having a tragic backstory that basically says "my life was bad" isnt objectively better either. I understand why they people would want somethign new, and I do too. Something actually new. Not rebooting an old character for merchandise. They wanted to bring in Broly, but like, besides LSSJ and the name, he's barely even the same guy. They should've just made a new character.

[JazzMazz]

Watched a subbed video from the Vegeta Vs Broly fight.

Broly is out of the water after Super Saiyan God Vegeta's blast. Vegeta then asks Goku ''Hey Kakarot, did you bring any senzu''?

Did anybody else find this weird? Vegeta was winning up until this point, he didn't get any major beat down and then he sees Broly powering up and screaming and all of a sudden he is looking for senzu beans?

Vegeta got scared so easily and starts asking for senzu beans? I also remember him not liking using them (remember when Trunks gave him one in the Cell Games) and now he wants them even if he is (still) not defeated?

Vegeta ADMITTED DEFEAT there without even fighting first???

I think the senzu bean-reference is to make the scene when Broly goes 'Ikari' look even more dramatic.
Like 'how the hell are we ever gonna beat this guy?'

I mean, it could just show that he thought he was going to get beaten up or that the fight may get tough from here on out?

Doesn't necessarily mean he thought he was going to lose...

[Helios518]

So basically you just want them to be some one dimensional evil for the sake of it type character who enjoys terrorizing everything in his path with his evil smile on like the rest of the DB villains?

That's fine, but not everyone is you so you should understand why people would want something better, less bland and overused.

Basically, yeah. And being "Evil for the sake of it" doesnt automatically make a character bland and/or one dimensional. Freeza and Orochimaru from Naruto are two examples.

But thats my whole point. Having a tragic backstory that basically says "my life was bad" isnt objectively better either. I understand why they people would want somethign new, and I do too. Something actually new. Not rebooting an old character for merchandise. They wanted to bring in Broly, but like, besides LSSJ and the name, he's barely even the same guy. They should've just made a new character.

I'd say they did quite fine in their attempt to appease both audiences. His design has inspiration from the old Broli yet is different enough to be new, he's still docile in his normal form albeit could stand more on his own, and he's still a brute in his transformed state like his M10 and later counterparts. My only real complaint is that the movie was too short to really flesh out his character especially after he transformed.

[zarmack]

Watched a subbed video from the Vegeta Vs Broly fight.

Broly is out of the water after Super Saiyan God Vegeta's blast. Vegeta then asks Goku ''Hey Kakarot, did you bring any senzu''?

Did anybody else find this weird? Vegeta was winning up until this point, he didn't get any major beat down and then he sees Broly powering up and screaming and all of a sudden he is looking for senzu beans?

Vegeta got scared so easily and starts asking for senzu beans? I also remember him not liking using them (remember when Trunks gave him one in the Cell Games) and now he wants them even if he is (still) not defeated?

Vegeta ADMITTED DEFEAT there without even fighting first???

I think the senzu bean-reference is to make the scene when Broly goes 'Ikari' look even more dramatic.
Like 'how the hell are we ever gonna beat this guy?'

I mean, it could just show that he thought he was going to get beaten up or that the fight may get tough from here on out?

Doesn't necessarily mean he thought he was going to lose...

Exactly. TheRed259 is overreading and overreacting to the scene. Vegeta simply saw that Broly is rapidly growing in power and would likely need a senzu bean when its over. He didn't actually give up against Broly.

[ssj3kakarot]

So is this the first time in Dragon ball history that Goku refers to himself has kakarot? End of the Broly movie he refers to himself as Kakarot! That's kinda a big deal.Like, WTF kinda big!

Can anyone think of another time? I can't recall.