Because I'm more of a fanboy than you are.

[Dayspring]

I only implore EX not to close this thread since what I'm about to discuss was and always will be an element of Dragonball. Those that think it's "OMG so n00b11" or "so 1999" are not allowed to make a comment.

This thread is about measuring strengths from where the Daizenshuu left off. No guesses, just info backed up using facts only. There are actually multiple purposes for this discussion since so many idiots assign randomly chosen big numbers and make annoying claims about fusions as if they were fact. This thread's purpose is to blow away any such annoying rumors. Certain ranges can be guessed using common sense and math.

-Androids + Cell:
#19 and #20's strength can not be gauged in any fashion. The only info we have is that they were stronger than Goku, who was suffering from the heart disease at the time of their battle.

#18: WELL OVER 150 million. The Daizenshuu lists SSJ Goku (vs Freeza) as being 150 million. Now add 3 years training (4ish if you include Yardrat). Clearly, SSJ Goku has surpassed the 150 million mark by the time the androids show up. It's mentioned many times over that SSJ Vegeta is at least as strong as SSJ Goku by this time. SSJ Vegeta, at max, was equal to #18, but lost since she has infinite energy. Ergo, SSJ Vegeta is well over 150 million, and therefore so is #18.

#17: WELL OVER 300 million. He's supposed to be twice as strong as #18.

Cell (first form at time of assimilating #17): Cell surpassed #17 before assimilating him, therefore he is also well over 300 million.

#16: He was equal to Cell, ergo well over 300 million.

Cell (second form): at the very least, assimilating the androids adds their power to his own. Therefore Cell is over 600 million at this point.

USSJ Vegeta and USSJ Trunks: Well over 600 million. Both were fully capable of wiping the floor with second form Cell.

Cell (perfect form): Using the same logic to achieve second form Cell's strength, we can comfirm Cell has a pl beyond 750 million by this point.

USSJ2 Trunks: Well over 750 million. Cell admits Trunks is stronger than him.

FP SSJ Goku: Well over 1.2 billion. When he shows HALF of his strength to Karin, Vegeta is overwhelmed by how much MORE powerful Goku is. Therefore we know half strength completely surpasses 600 million (USSJ Vegeta), and from there we can derive that full power is 1.2 billion.

Perfect Form Cell (after Saiyan healing boost from Vegeta's Final Flash): over 1.2 billion. It's said a million times over that he's stronger than Goku.

FP SSJ Gohan: Gohan is at least strong as Goku, therefore another case of being beyond 1.2 billion

SSJ2 Gohan: SSJ2 and SSJ3 are simply SSJ multiplied by which stage of SSJ you're in. Therefore we know SSJ2 Gohan is well over 2.4 billion.

-Buu saga:

Goku:
non-SSJ = 60 kiris (3000 kiris / 50, since the daizenshuu says SSJ is 50x base)
SSJ = 3000 kiris (given in manga)
SSJ2 = 6000 kiris (SSJ x 2 = 3000 x 2)
FP SSJ3 (only achieved in afterlife) = 9000 kiris (SSJ x 3 = 3000 x 3)

Vegeta:
non-SSJ = less than 60 kiris (weaker than Goku, which was why he went Majin)
SSJ Vegeta = less than 3000 kiris (see above)
Majin SSJ2 Vegeta = 6000 kiris (he went majin to equal Goku)

Vegetto = MORE than just Goku+Vegeta. If we add their strengths together and they're equal to each other, than SSJ Vegetto should only have a PL of 6000 kiris, which was equal to SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. If Majin Vegeta couldn't handle fat Buu, how could someone equal to him kick the snot out of Buu+Gohan+etc?

"Mystic" Gohan: More than 160 times stronger than prior to getting the "mystic" training. Oozaru makes you 10x stronger. SSJ3 makes you 150 x stronger. Therefore, amongst his latent energy must AT LEAST be SSJ3 + Oozaru.



Bla. Tear this to shreads.

[Great Saiyaman]

I like the topic, but I must say, I high disagree with you having Base Goku at only 60 Kiri's.......Yakon was 800, Goku was clearly stronger.

[desirecampbell]

non-SSJ = 60 kiris (3000 kiris / 50, since the daizenshuu says SSJ is 50x base)

But #19 states that math cannot be used to determine the strength of a SSj.

And some of your assumptions about absorbions and transformation levels may be wrong. How do we know that SSj2 is twice as powerful as SSj1? It might just as well be 50x SSj1. Is there any respectible informatio you're using to come to that conclusion?

Also, you seem to assume that Vegetto wasn't SSj2 - though there's no proof he is SSj2, there's also no proof he isn't. And considering both Goku and Vegeta could go SSj2 at that point, there's no reason to assume Vegetto couldn't as well.


But I do enjoy this kind of debate.

- edit - I have my own theories too

[Duo]

A thread to catch my interest...I suppose I'll add my take on things.

Cybrog Freeza - Claimed to be stronger than he was before and able to bring down Goku on his own. However, he has no ability to sense Ki so really wouldn't know. I'd put him around 140,000,000.

Ssj Trunks - Slaughtered Freeza in an instant. 160,000,000 to 180.000,000.

Ssj Goku - Healed his wounds and trained for a year. 175,000,000 to 200,000,000.

#19 & #20 - Undeterminable.

Ssj Goku ("What if?" Full Power) - Trained for 3 years. 220,000,000 to 260,000,000.

Ssj Vegeta - Claims a higher strength than Goku, which is backed up by Piccolo's suspicion that it may be true. 225,000,000 to 270,000,000.

Piccolo - Kuririn compares Piccolo to a Super Saiyan. 170,000,000 to 230,000,000.

Ssj Trunks - Seems much less effective against #18 than Vegeta. 200,000,000 to 240,000,000.

#18 - A little bit stronger than Ssj Vegeta at his best, but with infinite stamina. 235,000,000 to 285,000,000.

#17 - Said (in a title page) to be significantly stronger than #18. 340,000,000 to 460,000,000.

Piccolo, merged with Kami-Sama - (Theoretically) would have doubled his Ki, since it was said to have been halved by diffusing in the first place. 340,000,000 to 460,000,000.

Cell (first appearance) - He is obviously weaker than a Powered-up Piccolo (with Weighted Clothing on...which may or may not be a hinderance) but #16 compares his Ki to that of #18 and #17...so I put him between the two. 270,000,000 to 370,000,000.

Cell (second appearance) - Piccolo and #17's attacks are completely useless against him. 450,000,000 to 580,000,000.

#16 - Equal to Cell. 450,000,000 to 580,000,000.

Second Stage Cell - Makes #16 completely inferior. 600,000,000 to 750,000,000.

Ssj Type 2 Vegeta - Has no trouble with Second Stage Cell, even when he goes to Full Power. 950,000,000 to 1,200,000,000.

Second Stage Cell (at full power) - Significantly powered up, as stated by Vegeta. 800,000,000 to 1,000,000,000.

Ssj Type 2 Trunks - Said to be almost as strong as Vegeta. 925,000,000 to 1,150,000,000.

Complete Cell - Much stronger than Vegeta. 1,200,000,000 to 1,500,000,000.

Ssj Type 3 Trunks - Ki is stated to be greater than Cell's, but has no ability to hit him. 1,400,000,000 to 1,750,000,000.

Ssj Goku - At half power, surpasses Super Vegeta and is later stated to have a greater Ki than anyone by that point. 2,000,000,000 to 2,500,000,000.

Complete Cell (powered up) - Shows a speed and power advantage over Goku. 2,200,000,000 to 2,750,000,000.

Ssj Gohan - Implied multiple times and shown to be stronger than Goku, and faster than Cell (until he reveals his true speed). 2,200,000,000 to 2,750,000,000.

Ssj2 Gohan - Shows an utter and drastic increase in every ability by a huge margin. 8,800,000,000 to 11,000,000,000.

Complete Cell (full power) - A considerable powerup in every aspect. The affects on the terrain and his aura are quite significant. 4,400,000,000 to 5,500,000,000.

Complete Cell (near-death powerup) - Is able to take a huge barrage of Ki blasts from Vegeta hardly fazed and is able to majorly injure Son Gohan in a single, un-charged blow. He was either slightly weaker or slightly stronger. I'll put them equal to avoid hassle. 8,800,000,000 to 11,000,000,000.

I'll do the Boo arc some other time.

Though I am wondering where you got the idea of your Ssj Multipliers Dayspring...what are they based on?

[ShadowAssailantX]

There are actually multiple purposes for this discussion since so many idiots assign randomly chosen big numbers and make annoying claims about fusions as if they were fact.

SSJ2 Gohan: SSJ2 and SSJ3 are simply SSJ multiplied by which stage of SSJ you're in.

Sure it's not about fusions... But....

#19 and #20's strength can not be gauged in any fashion.

#19 & #20 - Undeterminable.

Why is that? We know that they are strong enough to beat Goku at that point in time if he had just trained normally and never gone SSJ. We also know that they are weaker than SSJ Vegeta. That sounds like a range to me, and Duo gauged everything in ranges. And I'm sure it wouldn't be as big of a gap as you used for some characters you speculated on.

No guesses, just info backed up using facts only.

Duo, sometimes you really seemed to be estimating on your speculations. I like the Dayspring listed everything; only stating the lowest possible Power Level.

To End This...
OMG so n00b11!11!

Just Kidding- Please Continue

[Duo]

Why is that?

It's impossible to know how much weaker Son Goku got from the Virus, nor if he got weaker as the battle went on or not, this makes #19 impossible to determine.

All we know about #20 is that he could beat a horribly Ki drained Vegeta and was no match for Piccolo. Very hard to determine.

Duo, sometimes you really seemed to be estimating on your speculations. I like the Dayspring listed everything; only stating the lowest possible Power Level.

Name such speculations. I have debated every last one of these 6 or more times, and simply couldn't sum up each and every multi-page debate in a sentence, but such ones you find as "specualtion" I'll be glad to elaborate upon. If it turns into something, we can even make a new thread for it.

Thanks.

[ShadowAssailantX]

It's impossible to know how much weaker Son Goku got from the Virus, nor if he got weaker as the battle went on or not, this makes #19 impossible to determine.

All we know about #20 is that he could beat a horribly Ki drained Vegeta and was no match for Piccolo. Very hard to determine.

It doesn't matter how much weaker Goku got from the virus, if you had read what I wrote in the last post you'd see why. I'll repeat it for you here. Even though Vegeta was bluffing, if he had been at full power, he would have easily killed 20. We know this because #20 fled from the battle, assuming Vegeta still had his strength. As you stated, 20 wasn't even a match for Piccolo. Therefore, according to your power levels, he is anywhere from 0 - 225,000,000.

Name such speculations. I have debated every last one of these 6 or more times, and simply couldn't sum up each and every multi-page debate in a sentence, but such ones you find as "specualtion" I'll be glad to elaborate upon. If it turns into something, we can even make a new thread for it.

I don't care how much you debated upon it, everything you typed up was speculation. It's not factual, therefore it's just your opinion. Even if everyone in the world agreed with you it would still be your speculation.

Thanks.

[Duo]

Point out such speculations or refrain from speaking to me.

[Blitzen]

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD

[Dayspring]

Try to avoid guessing your PLs, guys. The ones I give are based just on math and common sense, ie, impossible to disproove. (Not that yours are irrealistic, but guessing ranges like you are gets threads closed)

Where'd I get SSJ as multipliers? Daizenshuu, baby. SSJ is referenced twice as being 50x normal state (though I'll admit that can be different in FP SSJ, such possibility doesn't affect the numbers I gave), SSJ2 as "twice SSJ" and SSJ3 as "thrice SSJ" (ergo 50x2=SSJ2 and 50x3=SSJ3).

Concerning Yakon being really strong and Goku much stronger, I'd have to double check the details of their fight. The only kiris given in the manga are SSJ Goku (3000) and Yakon (either 600 or 800). To get Goku's base form I just divided by 50.

Concerning not knowing #19 and #20, since we can only guess that Goku and Vegeta are MUCH stronger than 150 million, we can't ever guess a range for these androids since it's possible that Goku, because of how the heart disease affected him, went under 150 million. If that's the case, all we know is that their range is between 0 and "less than Piccolo." Fine, but we don't need to give any number here since we have no clue what Piccolo would be at.

[VegettoEX]

Point out such speculations or refrain from speaking to me.

Please refrain from being a dick on my forum, or refrain from posting here.

[Xyex]

I like the topic, but I must say, I high disagree with you having Base Goku at only 60 Kiri's.......Yakon was 800, Goku was clearly stronger.

Concerning Yakon being really strong and Goku much stronger, I'd have to double check the details of their fight. The only kiris given in the manga are SSJ Goku (3000) and Yakon (either 600 or 800). To get Goku's base form I just divided by 50.

Actually, you could be partly right. Everyone seems to overlook the fact that Goku didn't have to be using his FULL SSJ power against Yakon. So, his base could easily have been even or greater than Yakon's while still keeping his SSJ at 50x stronger.

[Bejiita]

non-SSJ = 60 kiris (3000 kiris / 50, since the daizenshuu says SSJ is 50x base)

But #19 states that math cannot be used to determine the strength of a SSj.

And some of your assumptions about absorbions and transformation levels may be wrong. How do we know that SSj2 is twice as powerful as SSj1? It might just as well be 50x SSj1. Is there any respectible informatio you're using to come to that conclusion?

Also, you seem to assume that Vegetto wasn't SSj2 - though there's no proof he is SSj2, there's also no proof he isn't. And considering both Goku and Vegeta could go SSj2 at that point, there's no reason to assume Vegetto couldn't as well.


But I do enjoy this kind of debate.

- edit - I have my own theories too

I'm not one to talk about power levels throughout the series, but I will say they seem like some pretty accurate readings Dayspring.

What I wanted to say quickly is that I'm pretty damn sure that Vegetto did not go SSJ2 when fighting Super Buu.

I am no expert, but being a long time fan of Toriyama's art style and endlessly copying pictures of each character, and studying the hairstyles even more than my own, I make these reasons, without going off topic, since it's been mentioned. Ok...

For starters, going from the manga art, Vegetto is Cleary in his original SSJ state, his hair style is near enough identical, now, if I'm not mistaken, when a characters has gone beyond SSJ(SSJ2) the power they're emitting forces their hair to push more upright, take Gohan from the Cell games, he has a hair line like Goku's, but when SSJ2 his hair line only has one strand of hair overlapping his eyes.

Even Goku's hair when he is SSJ2 is different from his normal SSJ do, also, when in SSJ2, they have lots of electricity sparking and surrounding them, and there are more strands of hair, like, SSJ1 has bigger hair strands and SSJ2 has thinner strands but more of them. Let's not include the Goku Vs Majin Vegeta fight, well, when it begins, because the artist of that episode clearly draws it like the standard SSJ form, despite the fact that he drew the episode brilliant. Goku actually looks Japanese when he's stuck to that wall looking at Vegeta. Heh.

But mainly, even though it was anime filler, base form Vegetto looked like he could handle Buu as he was, but since he didn't fight him like that in the manga, I'd just say that Vegetto didn't even need to go SSJ2 to beat Buu. Mainly though, the eyes look angrier when SSJ2.

Meh, anyway just look here, it looks like a normal SSJ.

[Duo]

Try to avoid guessing your PLs, guys. The ones I give are based just on math and common sense, ie, impossible to disproove. (Not that yours are irrealistic, but guessing ranges like you are gets threads closed)

...

This thread's purpose is to blow away any such annoying rumors. Certain ranges can be guessed using common sense and math.

....

I implore you to add in the factor of the "Trunks Saga" for your levels, as they can influence the bigger picture.

Now, I base all of my "estimations" on what I observe in the Manga. Nothing added on to that, except for maybe having debated the subject before, as to bring clarity to ones thoughts. (Being challenged brings out the best in us.) You seem to have other sources, but I'm going to look at your levels from my standpoint.

#17: WELL OVER 300 million. He's supposed to be twice as strong as #18.

I can't recall this statement. The title page regarding their power says #18 is supressed (in power) when compared to #17, but doesn't say anything about him being twice as strong.

Cell (second form): at the very least, assimilating the androids adds their power to his own. Therefore Cell is over 600 million at this point.

You failed to include the event at which Second Stage Cell went "Full Power" after getting beat on a little bit. Vegeta points it out to be "Quite an Improvement" and Cell even lands a punch on Vegeta that makes him bleed. This is marked by Second Stage Cell generating the Aura of a Super Saiya'jin. If Vegeta says there is a notable difference, then we should include this "notable difference" as it can effect the big picture drastically.

Perfect Form Cell (after Saiyan healing boost from Vegeta's Final Flash): over 1.2 billion. It's said a million times over that he's stronger than Goku.

What Saiyan healing boost from Vegeta's Final Flash? Cell was hardly winded by that injury. Cell would have to be close to death, and he clearly was not.

You're looking for the reason Cell was stronger when he fought Goku then when he fought Vegeta and Trunks. Here it is...

Karin clearly points out to Goku that Cell has not yet revealed his true power, and that he isn't sure how deep it can possibly go. This means Cell wasn't using much of his abilities against the two Saiya'jin'.

After a brief warm up, Goku powers up against Cell and generates the unique aura of a Mastered Super Saiya'jin at Full Power. Cell repondes with a similar powerup, and takes on the same Aura (one of many times he exhibits uniquely Super Saiya'jin traits, only reinforcing the fact that he was, indeed, a Super Saiya'jin.). In other words, Cell wasn't using his real power against Vegeta and Trunks. Ssj T2 Trunks maybe have been stronger than Cell when he wasn't trying, but Cell powered up surpasses this level.

FP SSJ Gohan: Gohan is at least strong as Goku, therefore another case of being beyond 1.2 billion

It was implied and stated a couple of times that Gohan was outright stronger than Goku.

I like the topic, but I must say, I high disagree with you having Base Goku at only 60 Kiri's.......Yakon was 800, Goku was clearly stronger.

I agree, but I don't think Goku was stronger than Yakon. Probably around 600-700 Kiri. Just because he dodged and countered an attack doesn't make him stronger, and it hardly ended up hurting Yakon in comparison to someone "stronger".

But #19 states that math cannot be used to determine the strength of a SSj. Razz

Actually, Vegeta says this. However, you are quite right. Based on several events, we can conclude that the Ssj Muliplier isn't consistent from Saiya'jin to Saiya'jin or even the same Saiya'jin over long periods of time.

We don't know what effects mastering and training under the state of Super Saiya'jin may have on the Multiplier. Honestly, I don't think it's wise to include Base Saiya'jin power levels just to avoid such needless confusion. Yakon vs. Base Goku was a 2 blow exchange which gives away little to nothing, and then we never see a Base Saiya'jin in battle ever again. Why worry about it?

-----------------------------------------------

Since my estimations have been looked at "Guess's" and "Speculations" I'll break down and over-analyze all of my listed numbers. It would have been fantastic if people were so kind to tell me which levels they thought were speculations, but asking for something like that makes me a Prick, according to our Site Master. I completely fail to see any sense in such a rash, mean statement, but who the hell am I to have a mind?

Cybrog Freeza - Claimed to be stronger than he was before and able to bring down Goku on his own. However, he has no ability to sense Ki so really wouldn't know. I'd put him around 140,000,000.

As he approached Earth...

Freeza - "With the two of us together it will be no trouble. I could probably do it by myself...since I've grown even more powerful..."

Some may counter with Gohan's response to Yamcha's shock that "This is nothing. He can get way stronger than this." but mind you, there is no evidence prohibiting the idea that Freeza went straight to full power when he fired his blast upon Trunks. His body was mostly mechanical, so he wouldn't show the same physical effects as before.

Reason enough?

Ssj Trunks - Slaughtered Freeza in an instant. 160,000,000 to 180.000,000.

I don't know how much clearer I can get on this.

Ssj Goku - Healed his wounds and trained for a year. 175,000,000 to 200,000,000.

Not sure how to specify further on this. He spent a year and 230 days training on Yardrat. In that time he even mastered the transformation into Super Saiya'jin.

Ssj Goku ("What if?" Full Power) - Trained for 3 years. 220,000,000 to 260,000,000.

He trained for 3 years. Not much can be determined beyond that, but surely 3 years of training would substantially increase ones power, especially with 2 good sparring partners.

No...y'know what? Forget this. I'm not gonna break down any more of my levels because people are too fricken lazy to go further than say "that sounds like speculation". If that makes me a prick, I don't care. People don't seem to think I have anything positive to offer so I'll just let you guys throw out your own numbers that will be mostly speculation and remain unchecked and pat each other on the back.

Have fun.

[VegettoEX]

No...y'know what? Forget this. I'm not gonna break down any more of my levels because people are too fricken lazy to go further than say "that sounds like speculation". If that makes me a prick, I don't care. People don't seem to think I have anything positive to offer so I'll just let you guys throw out your own numbers that will be mostly speculation and remain unchecked and pat each other on the back.

Have fun.

Sounds to me like you're inadvertently patting your own self on the back for supposedly having so much of better self-conceived realization of everything concerning the show, and in the process of inflating your own ego via text, being a total dick about it. I don't like banning people, but you're not giving yourself a really good case, lately. No-one's come at you with even remotely the same kind of response.

You *are* being a prick, this is entirely unacceptable, and I will absolutely not tolerate this kind of bullshit attitude on this forum.

Perfect reason why threads like this get locked. I'll never understand why you people feel the need to insert such personal drama over flippin' power levels.

[Sun_Wukong]

Why do people constantly try to figure out DBZ through powerlevels? I have never understood this. This is something 12 year olds do. I thought this was supposed to be a "respected" DBZ forum

[desirecampbell]

For Chrait sakes...

Duo, you ARE guessing. You may think you aren't, but you are. You accussed Dayspring of guessing (which is is) and then flipped out when you got called on your own guessing. You ARE being a prick, and we'd all like you to stop.

Dayspring, so the Daizenshuu said that SSj2 is twice SSj, and SSj3 is twice SSj2?

Bejiita, damn. Well I'm pretty convinced that Vegetto was only SSj1 - but can you give any more image examples? That one is very small, and a few more would put a nail in the coffin of the "Vegetto SSj1 / SSj2" debate

[unstable_person99]

I've never really cared about power levels. You can never really be sure about a lot of them and it hurts my brain too much to think about them (I've already got a migraine from reading this damn thread ).

Well anyway I'm not here to calculate stuff. Don't I already have enough of that at school?

[DBZ MAN]

non-SSJ = 60 kiris (3000 kiris / 50, since the daizenshuu says SSJ is 50x base)

But #19 states that math cannot be used to determine the strength of a SSj.

And some of your assumptions about absorbions and transformation levels may be wrong. How do we know that SSj2 is twice as powerful as SSj1? It might just as well be 50x SSj1. Is there any respectible informatio you're using to come to that conclusion?

Also, you seem to assume that Vegetto wasn't SSj2 - though there's no proof he is SSj2, there's also no proof he isn't. And considering both Goku and Vegeta could go SSj2 at that point, there's no reason to assume Vegetto couldn't as well.


But I do enjoy this kind of debate.

- edit - I have my own theories too

I'm not saying your wrong here but i'm sure that when Goku and Vegeta fused with the potara when they were at their base level forms.
And I would like to add in a comment on why I believe Vegetto was Super Saiyan Apart from having no Electricity around him, which I think is a very stong point, there is another but it's more to do with logic then study.
Old Kai told Goku that they only need to power up to 'super saiyan' to achieve full potential. Also if He actualy was SSJ 2, why not go SSJ 3? it makes more sense that he would only need to transform once instead of going in-between so to speak.
Vegetto seems to power up once in which he dubbs himself 'super Vegetto'. It looks that he is a super saiyan by the colour of his hair (hear me out). When he is not surrounded by aura his hair is a plain yellow and is not spiked as or straightened as much as an SSJ 2.

[desirecampbell]

I'm not saying your wrong here but i'm sure that when Goku and Vegeta fused with the potara when they were at their base level forms.
And I would like to add in a comment on why I believe Vegetto was Super Saiyan Apart from having no Electricity around him, which I think is a very stong point, there is another but it's more to do with logic then study.
Old Kai told Goku that they only need to power up to 'super saiyan' to achieve full potential. Also if He actualy was SSJ 2, why not go SSJ 3? it makes more sense that he would only need to transform once instead of going in-between so to speak.
Vegetto seems to power up once in which he dubbs himself 'super Vegetto'. It looks that he is a super saiyan by the colour of his hair (hear me out). When he is not surrounded by aura his hair is a plain yellow and is not spiked as or straightened as much as an SSJ 2.

I never meant to imply that Goku and Vegeta were SSj2 when they fuzed, I meant that they both had the ability to go SSj2 - so Vegetto should also have that ability. I'm not sure if Vegetto would have the ability to go SSj3 - but I've no real reason to doubt it.