Goku letting Vegeta live, better in the dub rewrite?

[Dbzfan94]

dangerous = stupid, its an endangerement to everyone.

why the original sucked: precita already explained it.
why the dub rewrite sucked: Vegeta did not deserve it and he would have killed everyone if he could which he tried to do earlier.

Not to be rude, but they both sucked, what would have been better for you?

[irreality]

dangerous = stupid, its an endangerement to everyone.

why the original sucked: precita already explained it.
why the dub rewrite sucked: Vegeta did not deserve it and he would have killed everyone if he could which he tried to do earlier.

I feel like you are arguing from an in-universe perspective: Goku made a bad choice from your perspective in-universe, and thus it is a bad out-of-universe choice. But characters have flaws (whether it is too obsessed with a rematch in the original or too obssessed with mercy in the dub), and it is good writing to expose those flaws in critical moments.

Even in-universe, though, I like taking the "Gandalf" approach: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” And they couldn't see all ends: faced with the much bigger threat of Freeza, Vegeta, even though working *against* Krillin and Gohan, was instrumental to bringing about the success of our heroes. So it was a happy chance that Goku didn't kill him.

[T Pac]

Usually I try and err towards 'to each his own' on matters, but in this case it's my response is good god no.

I actually think the fundamental distinction between the two speeches is the reason why I still cherish the series 15 years after I originally watched it, as opposed to every other kids' show I grew up watching. Not that I'm breaking any new ground here, but Goku is a deeply flawed and selfish character -- and that's a big part of the reason why the series is great. The Superman act is boring and trite, imo.

One phrase the OP used is that it "it just feels wrong given..." and I think evoking that emotion in a reader / watcher is actually a good thing -- in moderation, of course.

[Analytical Delusion]

Strongly dislike the dub version, changes Goku's characterization a ton.

It's not as if there were specific linguical nuances or cultural references that needed to be adapted. If that were the case, such a sweeping change would be justified. Rather, it's an instance of the dub script taking away from what makes Goku, Goku...wanting to fight stronger guys. That was Toriyama's intent in the scene, and anything taking away from it is a definite negative for me.

[Lord Beerus]

No, it's completely out of character and doesn't fit Goku's character at all. That scene established (or reinforced) Goku as a flawed person. The dubbed version is an insult to any Dragon Ball fan, and I can't fathom why that scene hasn't gotten the same amount of criticism as the "I am the hope of the universe" speech.

Probably because this is the same Goku that gave Piccolo a senzu bean and showed him mercy at the end of Dragonball. The same Goku who spares Nappa's life, doesn't kill Recoome or Burter, was even willing to let Freeza go.

Dub Goku is only less selfish and less of a Saiyan warrior than his original counterpart, but Goku showing mercy because he believes people could change isn't out of character. It also makes more sense for Krillin to spare Vegeta himself rather than killing him.

All those examples were a case of cruel mercy more than anything. Nappa was paralysed and no longer is condition to fight anymore. Practically robbing him of his great joy in life. And Goku, as a Saiyan himself, knew full damn well that if you rob a Saiyan of his ability to fight, your effective robbing a person of their greatest happiness and condemning them to a life of misery. Recoome and Burter were practically in comas and as for Freeza, the only reason he let Freeza go was becasue he had become a waste of Goku time as he was becoming weaker and weaker in his 100% Final Form and worth fighting anymore.

[Cipher]

In the case of the re-written dub dialogue, it's Goku who's out of character. He's a strange, goofy, fighting-obsessed guy who absolutely would spare Vegeta for the sake of a rematch. Having said that, there's one thing about the whole thing that has always bothered me a little bit: Kuririn listening to Goku. I still have a bit of a hard time believing that Kuririn would not kill Vegeta just because Goku asked for a rematch. Keep in mind, he was plunging a sword straight towards Vegeta when Goku stopped him, so Kuririn was very close to killing Vegeta, and yet he didn't.......because Goku wanted a rematch?

I think it's justified. Kuririn is hugely conflicted over letting him go, ultimately saying something to the effect that, because Goku essentially saved the world, he guesses he can have his say, but he'd better be sure to win next time. Even afterward, I think his avoiding telling the truth on the plane is out of a sense that he was complicit in Goku's terrible decision.

Also, I may be remembering wrong, but I think Goku also says something the effect of "I'd never forgive you" if he doesn't let Vegeta go, which is ... yikes, but it works with how desperate for a challenge Goku is at the time, and the darker elements of his personality and Saiyan heritage creeping in.

It's a really important scene, you guys. Like, one of the most important in the series.

Probably because this is the same Goku that gave Piccolo a senzu bean and showed him mercy at the end of Dragonball. The same Goku who spares Nappa's life, doesn't kill Recoome or Burter, was even willing to let Freeza go.

Goku letting Piccolo go is absolutely the same case as the Vegeta fight -- wildly reckless in the interest of preserving a rival. He doesn't stop for a moment to discuss restraining the paralyzed Piccolo somehow. After barely managing to win, he simply sends him on his way.

Nappa, Recoome and Burter aren't threats at that point -- it's genuine mercy. With Freeza, letting him go is initially out of a desire to further humiliate him, but at the end, yes, there's some regret over the fact he couldn't use any of his multiple chances to make his escape, and that Goku is forced to kill him despite being strong enough to decide the fight in other ways.

Freeza is also a non-threat at that point, being weaker than Goku and crippled by his own attack. It's rather different from the situations with Piccolo and Vegeta, in which he either barely manages to win against, or straight-up loses to, an opponent who announces their desire to return for revenge. The end of Resurrection "F" is more the same case.

[JulieYBM]

Gokuu being a selfish asshole who endangers others is what makes him interesting. This is a guy who is, to a degree, wholly inhuman. He takes the human virtue of being stubborn and selfish and takes it to the extreme. Taking that away from him renders him into a boring, shallow figure of western ideology, rather than the creation of the poisonous man that is his creator.

[precita]

Aren't there instances where Goku IS trying to save the world though in the original? The impression I'm getting here is Goku being a asshole is good, but this still doesn't fit with Goku saving the day and all his friends in almost every saga.

If Goku just wanted to fight and set himself up for challenges, why would he be saving his family/friends/the earth every chance he got?

[JulieYBM]

Aren't there instances where Goku IS trying to save the world though in the original? The impression I'm getting here is Goku being a asshole is good, but this still doesn't fit with Goku saving the day and all his friends in almost every saga.

If Goku just wanted to fight and set himself up for challenges, why would he be saving his family/friends/the earth every chance he got?

He only "saves the world" because it'd be kind of a pain in the neck having no planet to go home to. Gokuu never actually fears life without his family, friends or the Earth.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

Hated both equally honestly.

[Cipher]

Aren't there instances where Goku IS trying to save the world though in the original? The impression I'm getting here is Goku being a asshole is good, but this still doesn't fit with Goku saving the day and all his friends in almost every saga.

If Goku just wanted to fight and set himself up for challenges, why would he be saving his family/friends/the earth every chance he got?

He wants both. There are absolutely moments where he's fighting purely to save others throughout the series, but that doesn't mean he doesn't make decisions that undercut that at other times.

Often times one bleeds into the other as well. He begins the fight against Nappa and Vegeta wholly set on avenging his friends and saving the world. By the end, he's grappling with a different motivation.

Goku is essentially a good person, but he has one glaring flaw in the purity of his obsession with fighting and challenging himself, and the more cosmically powerful he becomes, the more dangerous its repercussions.

He only "saves the world" because it'd be kind of a pain in the neck having no planet to go home to. Gokuu never actually fears life without his family, friends or the Earth.

That's reductive, and it's the kind of all-or-nothing explanation that I think prevents others from getting on board with the idea that Goku has a selfish, dangerous side. Of course Goku understands the sanctity of life. Particularly after his training with God, he's very much about sparing opponents weaker opponents whenever possible. He's not a sociopath--he even realizes what he's asking in regards to Vegeta is dangerous and wrong. He just has a drive to maintain strong opponents that overrides better judgement at times.

It's not "Goku: Hero or Selfish Warrior?"; it's both.

[JulieYBM]

That's reductive, and it's the kind of all-or-nothing explanation that I think prevents others from getting on board with the idea that Goku has a selfish, dangerous side. Of course Goku understands the sanctity of life. Particularly after his training with God, he's very much about sparing opponents weaker opponents whenever possible. He's not a sociopath--he even realizes what he's asking in regards to Vegeta is dangerous and wrong. He just has a drive to maintain strong opponents that overrides better judgement at times.

It's not "Goku: Hero or Selfish Warrior?"; it's both.

It isn't a philosophical decision for Gokuu, though, which is what I think folks are trying to pin this as. Gokuu's actions are not particularly [super] heroic because his intent doesn't particularly lie in fighting for others. Gokuu doesn't believe in anything other than fighting for himself.

[Ree]

Not to be rude, but they both sucked, what would have been better for you?

Vegeta escaping before anyone can get to him
that whole scene honestly just needed a rewrite

[MajinMan]

The dub ruined that scene. It made Goku look like some Superman clone that only fights to protect others, when in reality he let him go just so he can fight him again.

[Cipher]

It isn't a philosophical decision for Gokuu, though, which is what I think folks are trying to pin this as. Gokuu's actions are not particularly [super] heroic because his intent doesn't particularly lie in fighting for others. Gokuu doesn't believe in anything other than fighting for himself.

I think it's a little reductive to say he doesn't believe in anything other than fighting for himself--like I said, he does have moments where he's fighting primarily or entirely to protect others. Fewer and fewer as the series goes on, but they're there.

Letting Vegeta go is definitely not one of them though. That's totally dangerous and selfish, he says as much, it's a major character moment, etc.

[Faustus]

When I heard what the dub did to this scene, I couldn't help but think...

"What a waste".

[Araki]

I think the scene would have been much, much more strongly constructed if it was Goku sparing Vegeta's life, rather than him asking Kuririn to.

I completely disagree. That would be no different from Goku sparing Piccolo, or even Reecoom and others, we've seen it many times. He would just let him live and that's it.

What we got was Kuririn struggling to respect the wishes from his best (and flawed) friend, even though he knew that was a mistake. Much more powerful and original.

Gokuu being a selfish asshole who endangers others is what makes him interesting. This is a guy who is, to a degree, wholly inhuman. He takes the human virtue of being stubborn and selfish and takes it to the extreme. Taking that away from him renders him into a boring, shallow figure of western ideology, rather than the creation of the poisonous man that is his creator.

Perfect words.

If Goku just wanted to fight and set himself up for challenges, why would he be saving his family/friends/the earth every chance he got?

Goku cares so much about that stuff that he'd rather stay dead and training far away from everyone.
I mean, of course he cares about them, but it's rarely the first thing that crosses his mind. He doesn't go out of his way to do it the way he does for fighting and getting stronger. Even Buu!Vegeta seems much more attached to Bulma and Trunks than Goku ever shown to his family - only reason he wanted that day back with everyone was because there would be a tournament.

[ABED]

Aren't there instances where Goku IS trying to save the world though in the original? The impression I'm getting here is Goku being a asshole is good, but this still doesn't fit with Goku saving the day and all his friends in almost every saga.

If Goku just wanted to fight and set himself up for challenges, why would he be saving his family/friends/the earth every chance he got?

He only "saves the world" because it'd be kind of a pain in the neck having no planet to go home to. Gokuu never actually fears life without his family, friends or the Earth.

I don't think that at all. If he didn't have those things, he'd be devistated.

When I heard what the dub did to this scene, I couldn't help but think...

"What a waste".

I see what you did there

[90sDBZ]

Even though it changed the intention of the scene, it wasn't a complete asspull. In the Japanese version of the episode where Vegeta admits Goku is Number 1, he actually says "It's almost as if you knew I'd come to have a heart", which is totally consistent with what Goku says in the Funi re-dub.

I've also noticed how the Ocean version sort of plays it both ways by first having Goku say "We must show him there is a better way", and then later saying "I admire his super strength".

[Doctor.]

I don't think that at all. If he didn't have those things, he'd be devistated.

I agree. I think the only reason he seems to not care if they die, is because they have the dragon balls. And even if they don't work, he can still meet his friends in the afterlife. If they "died twice", as in, their soul stopped existing, he'd be broken.