One Punch Man and Dragon Ball crossover

[pacz360]

Frankly, who cares? This is why I find strength debates, especially across different series with entirely different logic and conventions, to be so boring and fruitless. The whole point of One Punch Man is that Saitama is a walking hax whose power is completely illogical in any realistic scenario given his training, and is bored with his nigh-invulnerability no matter what stands in front of him. Much like Superman, he's as strong as the story needs to be, "feats" be damned. Otherwise, there is no One Punch Man. Let's leave it at that.

The plots and elements clash with each other so much that arguments are just a pointless exercise of back-and-forth bickering that will lead absolutely nowhere.

Agreed so anyone know who the artist is?

[fadeddreams5]

However, he should, by all means, be unbeatable to anyone who isn't a reality warper or abstract being. That's... the point of the character. Take that away, and he's not One Punch Man. In the case of this discussion, I maintain, he should be able to effortlessly one-shot Vegeta.

This line of reasoning just doesn't make any sense to me.

You could equally make the same kind of argument about almost any other character - say, Naruto for instance.

"The whole point of Naruto's character is that he starts as an underachiever, but via sheer determination and "The Will of Fire" he always comes out on top in the end, so that means he can beat anyone, or else he wouldn't be Naruto".

But Naruto doesn't always come out on top. He's gotten beaten up. We've seen his limits. We've seen him hurt. Same with Goku. Saitama has not only never lost, but he's never been hurt, even when he's punched to the moon or dragged across the landscape via psychic powers. The scale of his opposition's powers radically increases, but that never ever makes a difference. Look at Saitama's expressions, look at how these fights end. It's all a joke directed at heroes and villains from shows like Naruto in the first place. The name of the show isn't Caped Baldy, Saitama, or Heroes; it's One Punch Man... for a reason.

Only if we have no sense of interpretation at all since in the very same video they mention Spectre and they talk extensively about how impressive it is for Superman to just lift him. Not beat him, lift him. It's clear that they are fully aware that there are beings more powerful than Superman even in DC.

What they say about the intent of the character is not meant to say that he is stronger than any other character ever. It's just meant to say that that's an actual advantage compared to a character who is written to be an underdog.

No, I'm pretty sure saying someone is not meant to lose and has no limits quite literally means he can't be beaten, at least in comparison to any mortal. In fact, Screw Attack made a follow up video questioning who could beat Superman in a fair fight. The answer? Nobody, unless there are rules to the competition and Superman is stripped of his powers.

He was knocked out with one hit after receiving several hits

True, but the guy also kept regenerating. Let's not pretend Saitama had to weaken him before finishing him off. After the fight, Saitama continues to humor the guy by agreeing that they had a splendid battle, only to be called a liar by Boros. Saitama emphasized with Boros' desire to fight someone equally strong.

You have to think about context here. So what if Boros was supposedly the strongest in his universe? His most powerful attack was stated to wipe out the surface of the Earth. That makes him maybe around as powerful as Raditz. If everyone stronger than Raditz in DBZ disappeared, Raditz would also be the strongest in his universe. Does that somehow mean anything special?

Raditz never punched anyone to the moon. But that's besides the point, I was just using Boros as an example as to how dramatically the scale of powers increase in that series, only for everything to still end with a punch (hehe) line. After that, we get Garou. That's just the pattern of the series. The scale can increase more and more and more until we have a multiversal, planet-eating being, and it will end the same because... that's funny.

Of course, I'm jumping the gun. I'm not ONE. I don't know what he has in store in the future. Maybe Saitama will obtain a cap and even be beaten. But if the series ends, and he never does, regardless of his level of opposition, I maintain that he's not a character that is meant to be beaten. He's a walking joke.

If I write about a character and explicitly state that he/she/it is unbeatable and can defeat any opponent, do my words automatically override those of any other writers?

If that's your work, yeah. lol.

Let's say both are shown to be completely unbeatable in their own series and have never been challenged or struggled, but one of them has planetary level feats at maximum and the other has universe-level feats. Doesn't it make sense to say the latter one would win?

If the joke of the series is that the main character beats everyone with one punch and can't lose, well, the universe implodes in the battle of the unbeatable. =P

[Polyphase Avatron]

But Naruto doesn't always come out on top. He's gotten beaten up. We've seen his limits. We've seen him hurt.

He always comes out on top in the end, gets stronger, and prevails against stronger opponents. Same with Goku. Using your type of logic you could say that an ant that has won every fight it ever had against other ants and never fought anything stronger can beat an elephant.

No, I'm pretty sure saying someone is not meant to lose and has no limits quite literally means he can't be beaten, at least in comparison to any mortal. In fact, Screw Attack made a follow up video questioning who could beat Superman in a fair fight. The answer? Nobody, unless there are rules to the competition and Superman is stripped of his powers.

Yeah, and that's complete nonsense as many people have pointed out.

Raditz never punched anyone to the moon.

Boros never blew up the moon, but Master Roshi and Piccolo did. See, I can throw arguments just like that back at you. It's meaningless.

But that's besides the point, I was just using Boros as an example as to how dramatically the scale of powers increase in that series, only for everything to still end with a punch (hehe) line. After that, we get Garou. That's just the pattern of the series. The scale can increase more and more and more until we have a multiversal, planet-eating being, and it will end the same because... that's funny.

But no such thing has happened yet, and until it does, you can't say it will.

Let's look at another example - are you familiar with One Piece? The character of Hawk-eyes Mihawk appeared and fought very early in that series, at a point where he was vastly more powerful than everyone else at the time. He was able to effortlessly defeat everyone who fought him, even casually defeating Zoro (who was superhuman and wielded 3 swords at once) by only using a tiny dagger, and yawning while doing so. Mihawk was never challenged or in any kind of danger at all. According to your logic, Mihawk could beat anyone, such as Goku or Superman or Galactus or whoever, just as easily.

But skip ahead a few hundred chapters when everyone is a lot stronger, Mihawk is still very tough, but there are people who can challenge and beat him, and he actually has to try seriously in fights. We didn't know his limits back then, but we know them now.

Even if the OPM series ends with no one able to give Saitama any kind of challenge, you can only use that to say that he's a lot stronger than the next-strongest person in the same series, not someone who is way stronger than anything ever in the series.

Of course, I'm jumping the gun. I'm not ONE. I don't know what he has in store in the future. Maybe Saitama will obtain a cap and even be beaten. But if the series ends, and he never does, regardless of his level of opposition, I maintain that he's not a character that is meant to be beaten. He's a walking joke.

Thing is, one author can't make a declaration that their character can't be beaten and expect it to be binding to other authors. At most they can say that their character can't be beaten within the context of their own work. They have no authority over the work of others. And what happens when the 'unstoppable force vs. immovable object' scenario arises? Author A says that this weapon/attack he/she wrote about can overcome any defense, no matter how strong it is or how it works, and will always destroy its target, with absolutely no exceptions. Author B says that the defense they wrote about can negate any attack, no matter how powerful or how it works, and the user can never be harmed when using it, with absolutely no exceptions. If they are put against each other, which one wins? According to your method, there's no way to tell, it's a paradox. But if we were to compare the strongest things that the former has destroyed to the strongest things the latter has resisted, we could come up with a more reasonable answer.

If that's your work, yeah. lol.

No it doesn't, because I only have authority over my own work, not the work of other writers. See my example above.

If the joke of the series is that the main character beats everyone with one punch and can't lose, well, the universe implodes in the battle of the unbeatable.

But that defeats your own argument. Reaching a tie with more than one (serious) punch contradicts what you claim is the point of the character just as much as losing a fight does. According to you, neither should be possible. So you have a paradox - a logically contradictory situation. It's a well-known rule in logic that when your premise leads to an inescapable logical paradox, that means your premise is wrong.

[fadeddreams5]

Boros never blew up the moon, but Master Roshi and Piccolo did. See, I can throw arguments just like that back at you. It's meaningless.

Roshi's a sitting duck charging his laser. Boros can wipe out the surface of a planet in one blast. That is so much more efficient than blowing the whole thing up. Piccolo could never even dream of having enough physical strength to punch someone from a planet to its moon. =P

Even if the OPM series ends with no one able to give Saitama any kind of challenge, you can only use that to say that he's a lot stronger than the next-strongest person in the same series, not someone who is way stronger than anything ever in the series.

Maybe it's too soon to call it. But if Saitama one-shots a being on a multiversal level (e.g. Anti-Monitor, Fully-fed galactus, Asura the Destroyer, etc) and takes no real damage (as usual), resulting in another anticlimactic punch line, I will gladly say he can beat any mortal, non-reality warping being in any other series ever.

But that defeats your own argument. Reaching a tie with more than one (serious) punch contradicts what you claim is the point of the character just as much as losing a fight does. According to you, neither should be possible. So you have a paradox - a logically contradictory situation. It's a well-known rule in logic that when your premise leads to an inescapable logical paradox, that means your premise is wrong.

I didn't say there'd be a tie or Saitama would need to punch more times after using his max. I quite literally mean that the universe would collapse. If Saitama's punch happens to have an infinite amount of power and he unleashes that...

Thing is, one author can't make a declaration that their character can't be beaten and expect it to be binding to other authors. At most they can say that their character can't be beaten within the context of their own work. They have no authority over the work of others. And what happens when the 'unstoppable force vs. immovable object' scenario arises? Author A says that this weapon/attack he/she wrote about can overcome any defense, no matter how strong it is or how it works, and will always destroy its target, with absolutely no exceptions. Author B says that the defense they wrote about can negate any attack, no matter how powerful or how it works, and the user can never be harmed when using it, with absolutely no exceptions. If they are put against each other, which one wins? According to your method, there's no way to tell, it's a paradox. But if we were to compare the strongest things that the former has destroyed to the strongest things the latter has resisted, we could come up with a more reasonable answer.

I mean, I agree. But the spirit and humor of Saitama comes from winning anticlimactically with one punch and a poker face. If some other writer crosses him over and has him lose and fighting on par with another character, I feel he's misusing him and being unfaithful. That's why I really appreciate the fan manga posted in this thread--that's how you use this character without pissing over characters from another series either (DBZ, in this case).

[Polyphase Avatron]

Boros never blew up the moon, but Master Roshi and Piccolo did. See, I can throw arguments just like that back at you. It's meaningless.

Roshi's a sitting duck charging his laser. Boros can wipe out the surface of a planet in one blast. That is so much more efficient than blowing the whole thing up. Piccolo could never even dream of having enough physical strength to punch someone from a planet to its moon.

This argument makes no sense. You know the difference in energy required between wiping out the surface of a planet and destroying the whole thing? You can call it "more efficient" but what you really mean is "weaker". And technically all you would need to knock someone to the moon would be to accelerate them to escape velocity and aim properly. Earth's escape velocity is around 11 km/s, so assuming the average person weights 80kg, doing so would only require around 4.84 billion joules, which is barely more than the power of 1 ton of TNT. It's not as impressive as you're making it out to be.

Maybe it's too soon to call it. But if Saitama one-shots a being on a multiversal level (e.g. Anti-Monitor, Fully-fed galactus, Asura the Destroyer, etc) and takes no real damage (as usual), resulting in another anticlimactic punch line, I will gladly say he can beat any mortal, non-reality warping being in any other series ever.

Are you familiar with every character and entity from every series ever and their powers? If not, you can't possibly make that claim.

I didn't say there'd be a tie or Saitama would need to punch more times after using his max. I quite literally mean that the universe would collapse. If Saitama's punch happens to have an infinite amount of power and he unleashes that...

It still wouldn't be enough to win against many potential opponents. Having infinite energy is not the same as being omnipotent, you can still lose. Omega from Doctor Who had literally infinite power but the Doctor still beat him by outsmarting him. And there are certain beings that are on different levels of infinity (that's a real concept in math BTW).

I mean, I agree. But the spirit and humor of Saitama comes from winning anticlimactically with one punch and a poker face. If some other writer crosses him over and has him lose and fighting on par with another character, I feel he's misusing him and being unfaithful. That's why I really appreciate the fan manga posted in this thread--that's how you use this character without pissing over characters from another series either (DBZ, in this case).

In terms of an amusing crossover, you can do whatever you want. But saying that a character is literally unbeatable in any crossover is just silly. It's the difference between writing an entertaining crossover story or seriously trying to debate who would win in a potential fight.

[fadeddreams5]

This argument makes no sense. You know the difference in energy required between wiping out the surface of a planet and destroying the whole thing? You can call it "more efficient" but what you really mean is "weaker".

I'm not making an argument. Just saying... I like the cut of his jib.

And technically all you would need to knock someone to the moon would be to accelerate them to escape velocity and aim properly. Earth's escape velocity is around 11 km/s, so assuming the average person weights 80kg, doing so would only require around 4.84 billion joules, which is barely more than the power of 1 ton of TNT. It's not as impressive as you're making it out to be.

A little over 1 ton of TNT is able to send an unbreakable object flying to the moon in less than a minute?

Are you familiar with every character and entity from every series ever and their powers? If not, you can't possibly make that claim.

Maybe I shouldn't have said any series. Just non-haxed shonen, DC, and Marvel characters.

It still wouldn't be enough to win against many potential opponents. Having infinite energy is not the same as being omnipotent, you can still lose. Omega from Doctor Who had literally infinite power but the Doctor still beat him by outsmarting him. And there are certain beings that are on different levels of infinity (that's a real concept in math BTW).

Let's step back from different levels of infinity, having crazy cheating abilities, or being super geniuses. This argument started over whether Saitama can beat Vegeta. I've only been referring to characters that will actually fight Saitama 1v1 in fair, clean combat (e.g. Goku, Thor, Hulk, etc.), not erase him from existence with their minds, confuse him into killing himself, or something stupid like that.

In terms of an amusing crossover, you can do whatever you want. But saying that a character is literally unbeatable in any crossover is just silly. It's the difference between writing an entertaining crossover story or seriously trying to debate who would win in a potential fight.

Fine. But I feel it will always be impossible to seriously debate Saitama's powers because the power and durability of his adversity is hard to measure. Almost always, they will seem invincible, but he will still one-shot them, no matter their feats. So the question becomes less about how strong he is, and more about how fierce his opposition is in comparison to whoever we're comparing Saitama's powers to (e.g. Vegeta). =P

[dbzfan7]

Can we please not derail this thread into a versus discussion? We have a versus thread that this could be debated in.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Can we please not derail this thread into a versus discussion? We have a versus thread that this could be debated in.

Sure thing

EDIT: Although I will clarify I was not actually arguing "who would win", but rather criticizing fadeddreams5's approach to the analysis of Saitama's strength

[rereboy]

No, I'm pretty sure saying someone is not meant to lose and has no limits quite literally means he can't be beaten, at least in comparison to any mortal. In fact, Screw Attack made a follow up video questioning who could beat Superman in a fair fight. The answer? Nobody, unless there are rules to the competition and Superman is stripped of his powers.

Literally, what is stated as the video begins:

"Well, now that Goku has lost to Superman a second time, you might be wondering who could beat Superman. Well, not many people, really, and no matter who we stack up against him he's got a pretty good chance of winning."

So, nobody...? It's quite clear that that's not what is said. What is clearly being said is simply that Superman is top tier (at least in potential) but that he can still lose. They even concede that someone as low tier as Harry Potter could beat in ideal conditions. That someone omnipotent could beat him, like The Presence, goes without saying when even Harry Potter could beat him in ideal conditions, which is probably why they don't even go into those kind of beings, even though they pretty much implied it when they mentioned The Spectre in their deathbattle video.

Like I mentioned, only someone with no sense of interpretation wouldn't get what screwattack was going for and you pretty much just proved that by claiming that such a sentence/video is trying to argue that nobody can beat Superman. And obviously there is no point in having a discussion in that case.

[fadeddreams5]

I keep emphasizing "mortal" beings for a reason. I'm not comparing Superman to abstracts like the Presence or Spectre, nor am I saying Death Battle thinks he can beat any deity (Superman Prime One Million can though). I'm saying they're claiming he can beat any non-abstract/godly being that doesn't use some sort of hax, magic, or kryptonite. As in, physical/tangible characters he can actually fight in a fair 1v1. According to them, there's nobody who can do such a thing.

[Tsufuru]

till of now you have to put saitama vs ppl on his current level of feats.

when the series ends with him beating every1 you still will put him vs ppl who are at the level of his strongest feat.
the author can say whatever he wants that only works for his series unless if he cleary stated i made my character stronger than every fictional character or specific ones.

so if saitama never beats some1 with planet , solar system , galaxy level you cant put him against ppl at that level.
and no, you as a fan got less to say about saitama beaten every1 outside of his own manga than the author.

[TripleRach]

This thread is supposed to be for discussing a particular fan manga. If you want to have strength debates, there are much more appropriate threads for it.

[rereboy]

I keep emphasizing "mortal" beings for a reason. I'm not comparing Superman to abstracts like the Presence or Spectre, nor am I saying Death Battle thinks he can beat any deity (Superman Prime One Million can though). I'm saying they're claiming he can beat any non-abstract/godly being that doesn't use some sort of hax, magic, or kryptonite. As in, physical/tangible characters he can actually fight in a fair 1v1. According to them, there's nobody who can do such a thing.

Like I said, they simply consider him top tier. They don't consider him unbeatable, not even among mortal fighters, they just consider that few have a chance agaisnt him when he is one of his good days, and almost no one has much of a chance agaisnt him when he is on his best day. And considering his top feats, that's a valid and logical conclusion and it's not hard to understand that this was their point.

In short, it's not that he can't lose, there's alway a chance that he might lose, even agaisnt someone like harry potter, it's just that, considering what he can achieve when he is actually doing some of his most impressive stuff, there's very few characters regarding which he wouldn't be the fighter most likely to win.

Trying to morph that conclusion into them saying that he can't be beaten, that he is invincible, and so on, is just simplistic interpretation that manages to miss the point.

This thread is supposed to be for discussing a particular fan manga. If you want to have strength debates, there are much more appropriate threads for it.

I'm sorry if my off topic was too excessive.

[Super Saiyajin Luffy]

The artist posted a new chapter on his blog:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/hibitanren/arch ... 55600.html

It gave me a few chuckles.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So (attempting to make sense of this from someone who can't read Japanese): Back before he finished his training, he killed Buyon, then a spaceship landed and some of Freeza's soldiers came out, and he fought them and beat most of them but one guy got the drop on him, but then he was saved by Piccolo, then Piccolo gives him the Great Saiyaman outfit, then there are some Red Ribbon Army soldiers working with a guy who sort of looks like Garou, and he's now bald which means his training is finished and he's getting ready to fight them?

[Sinestro]

It's thanks to this thread that I am watching One Fight Man on Hulu. Thanks!

[VegetaSSJG]

The artist published a new chapter of it on his blog
http://blog.livedoor.jp/hibitanren/arch ... 26471.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/hibitanren/arch ... 52087.html

lol,seeing grown-up Idasa cracked me up for some reason

[VegetaSSJG]

then there are some Red Ribbon Army soldiers working with a guy who sort of looks like Garou,

That's Colonel Silver(?),if I'm not mistaken.

(sorry for double posting)