Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by GTX » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:10 pm

Cetra wrote:With Goku missing or 100 years you can be sure he either is dead or some supernatural being that is also beyond life.

Also you are taking this way too serious.
Remember pan still alive and goku is at pan's age or younger.
So if goku can has the same age as pan surely he still alive.
And actually it's very weird for goku to be unkown if there is dragonball and dragon radar.
Or many their god's friends
Actually i don't care enough i regret making this thread but it's fate that i failed to delete it oh well i will update this in slow motion :lol: .
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:28 pm

GTX wrote:i don't debate without proof espescially number 1
In GT he state himself as hihi bachan or e e bachan is not that long for great great grandmother though.
That's still much longer than simply saying "grandmother", so there's no reason for him to not shorten it down to simply "grandmother" if referring to her. Besides, it's not that uncommon in the real world for it to be truncated down like that (both in Western and English cultures) if it's in terms of family familiarity.

Besides, you've been asked to give proof for there being a law on such a matter, but haven't cited one. Likewise, who says there's actually a casket or coffin there? Nothing is mentioned or shown that there's an actual casket where the memorial is, simply the memorial itself.

Lastly, you need to stop with the rude and condescending statements. Given your posts, English may not be your native language, and it's extremely difficult for you to get your point across when your sentences are fragmented and very hard to decipher. So, our comments about your posts being hard to understand or not making sense comes partially from that. However, that doesn't mean that you can call us dense or make other comments that are rather condescending in tone.
So if goku can has the same age as pan surely he still alive.
However, no one knows what actually happened to Goku. Just because age wise he "should" have lived on, doesn't mean that he necessarily would have. The moment that he left with Shenlon, they had absolutely no idea of when or even if they'd ever see him again, or what fate may have befallen him in the end.

I hate to sound like a broken record on the matter, but again, there is nothing about the special that contradicts or counters what is shown at the end of GT. It fits perfectly well with everything else shown.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by GTX » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:45 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
GTX wrote:i don't debate without proof espescially number 1
In GT he state himself as hihi bachan or e e bachan is not that long for great great grandmother though.
That's still much longer than simply saying "grandmother", so there's no reason for him to not shorten it down to simply "grandmother" if referring to her. Besides, it's not that uncommon in the real world for it to be truncated down like that (both in Western and English cultures) if it's in terms of family familiarity.

Besides, you've been asked to give proof for there being a law on such a matter, but haven't cited one. Likewise, who says there's actually a casket or coffin there? Nothing is mentioned or shown that there's an actual casket where the memorial is, simply the memorial itself.

Lastly, you need to stop with the rude and condescending statements. Given your posts, English may not be your native language, and it's extremely difficult for you to get your point across when your sentences are fragmented and very hard to decipher. So, our comments about your posts being hard to understand or not making sense comes partially from that. However, that doesn't mean that you can call us dense or make other comments that are rather condescending in tone.
So if goku can has the same age as pan surely he still alive.
However, no one knows what actually happened to Goku. Just because age wise he "should" have lived on, doesn't mean that he necessarily would have. The moment that he left with Shenlon, they had absolutely no idea of when or even if they'd ever see him again, or what fate may have befallen him in the end.

I hate to sound like a broken record on the matter, but again, there is nothing about the special that contradicts or counters what is shown at the end of GT. It fits perfectly well with everything else shown.
about dense i did put in italic and talk in general not spesific person and i also don't quote anyone so i meant to be polite no degrading anybody
I'm not even talk to spesific person at that point but just problem in general. That posting are 2 random monologue and i see it's harmless to anyone. My english is quite good i blame my broken monitor that has yet to be fixed for some time. Oh well someone can close this thread too if you want because too many derailment now
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Hitiro » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:59 pm

GTX wrote:i don't debate without proof espescially number 1
In GT he state himself as hihi bachan or e e bachan is not that long for great great grandmother though.
Goku actually says at the end of Hero's legacy that Goku Jr. is the grandson of his granddaughter's grandaughter's children. That means Pan is Goku Jr's great great grandmother.
Goku wrote:You're the grandson of my granddaughter's... granddaughter's child's...
Here is the evidence to prove it:
http://puu.sh/lyP3s/7022e7c427.jpg
http://puu.sh/lyPbE/c9ae79c143.jpg

And again, you're making stuff up. Goku Jr. never even talks to his great great grandmother at the end of GT. The announcer just says that Goku Jr. is the great great great great grandson of Mr. Satan and Goku.

Here is the scene:
http://puu.sh/lyPpJ/b297c01273.jpg
http://puu.sh/lyPrU/4063fbe384.jpg
http://puu.sh/lyPud/9f077f52e1.jpg
http://puu.sh/lyPwE/86d07a6a02.jpg

It was Puck who talked to her and he actually says Pan Baachan. Which is correctly translated to Grandma Pan. So they did shorten her title.

Here is Puck calling her Baachan:
http://puu.sh/lyPHh/a08c960f38.jpg

He later says "Which means, Grandma Pan, that you're...?" Making her reply that she is the first generation granddaughter of the original Son Goku. Here is the evidence again:
http://puu.sh/lyPQA/5064a685e8.jpg
http://puu.sh/lyPSh/9361aadc62.jpg

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:38 pm

I too find this the only non canon thing from GT. It doesn't fit as those who drink the sacred water=immortal.

It's well colored but man it just doesn't add up. Goku jr is WAY to weak. I have him above buuhan easily. I just consider this a mistake Toei made.
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:39 am

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I too find this the only non canon thing from GT. It doesn't fit as those who drink the sacred water=immortal.
What Sacred Water? If you're meaning the Water of Immortality that Roshi claimed to drink during Dragon Ball, he admitted during the Piccolo Daimao arc that there's no such thing, and that it's all a lie. If you're meaning the Super God Water that Goku drank to power himself up enough to beat Daimao, that just brought out his potential at the time, nothing about immortality.

Outside of Garlic Jr, no one in the history of the franchise has done anything that granted them immortality, be it a potion, the Dragon Balls, etc.
It's well colored but man it just doesn't add up. Goku jr is WAY to weak. I have him above buuhan easily. I just consider this a mistake Toei made.
Why would Goku Jr be anywhere remotely near Buu in terms of power?

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Herms » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:31 am

Hero's Legacy came first, so if anything it would be canon and the Super 17/dragon stuff non-canon. If you really want to go down that road.
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:30 am

Then Hero's legacy is retconned :D

Honestly only toei can say but it's easy to see IMO it's non canon to GT,jsut like fusion reborn isn't canon to Z. That's my stances.
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:54 am

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Then Hero's legacy is retconned :D

Honestly only toei can say but it's easy to see IMO it's non canon to GT,jsut like fusion reborn isn't canon to Z. That's my stances.
I don't understand why people see it as not being canon to GT, when there's nothing about it that contradicts or counters what we see in GT. If anything, given that it ties in with the final scene at the end of GT, one could make a more compelling argument that Toei intentionally made sure to solidify its canonicity with GT by adding the scenes to the final GT episode.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:29 am

Comparing it to DBZ Movie 12 to assert how "uncanon" it is is kind of asinine. It's a TV special and is fully intended to be part of the series it was produced for, just like the Bardock and Trunks TV Specials before it.

Those complaining can dislike the content of the special. That's their choice and no one will stop you. But they also need to understand that pretty much all of the supposed "contradictions" are only in regards to their personal beliefs, and are not factual evidence of anything and will not affect it's official standing in any way. Thus, they really shouldn't be going around spouting "it's not canon" like it's an undeniable fact, they should be saying "I don't consider it canon", because it's an opinion.
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:36 am

Herms wrote:Hero's Legacy came first, so if anything it would be canon and the Super 17/dragon stuff non-canon. If you really want to go down that road.
But the ending to GT fits into Hero's Legacy pretty well. It can explain on why Goku is back on Earth since he shows up at the end of GT too. Goku went to watch Goku Jr fight after meeting him earlier and wants to see how strong he is now. Goku give Goku Jr the 4th Star Dragon Ball since the Dragon Balls are now back to normal. The Dragon Balls can be used again since there is no negative energy inside of them.
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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Speedster » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:12 pm

Hitiro wrote:Goku actually says at the end of Hero's legacy that Goku Jr. is the grandson of his granddaughter's grandaughter's children. That means Pan is Goku Jr's great great grandmother.
Goku wrote:You're the grandson of my granddaughter's... granddaughter's child's...
The announcer just says that Goku Jr. is the great great great great grandson of Mr. Satan and Goku.
To be honest I couldn’t care less whether the Goku Jr special is canon or non-canon to GT (for me it is part of the story anyway) but there appears to be a contradiction in the number of “greats” between the special and the ending.

1. In the special Goku says to Goku Jr: “you are the grandson of my granddaughter’s granddaughter’s child”. This means Goku Jr is the greatx5 grandson of Goku. Let me analyse it:
a. Goku is the grandfather of his granddaughter (Pan).
b. He is the great grandfather of his granddaughter’s child (Pan’s child)
c. He is the greatx3 grandfather of the granddaughter of Pan’s child
d. He is the greatx5 grandfather of the grandson (Goku Jr) of the granddaughter of Pan’s child

2. However in GT’s ending the announcer says that Goku’s Jr is the greatx4 grandson of Goku.

So Pan is to Goku’s Jr his greatx3 grandmother in the special but his greatx2 grandmother in GT’s ending. However the special is the one that is most likely the correct one. It was 100 years after the end of GT and given that in Dragonball Goku's family breeds when they are around 20 years old there are 5 generation spans. Therefore according to this logic Goku Jr is the 5th generation after Pan meaning that Pan is his greatx3 grandmother (and therefore Goku his greatx5 grandfather).

(If you call Goku the 1st generation then Goku Jr is 8th generation. Coming 7 generations later and being a hybrid (and assuming no incest) it makes him 1/(2^7)=1/128th Saiyan according to the special. On the other hand according to Gt's ending he is 1/64th Saiyan)
Last edited by Speedster on Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:27 pm

Speedster wrote:
Hitiro wrote:Goku actually says at the end of Hero's legacy that Goku Jr. is the grandson of his granddaughter's grandaughter's children. That means Pan is Goku Jr's great great grandmother.
Goku wrote:You're the grandson of my granddaughter's... granddaughter's child's...
The announcer just says that Goku Jr. is the great great great great grandson of Mr. Satan and Goku.
To be honest I couldn’t care less whether the Goku Jr special is canon or non-canon to GT (for me it is part of the story anyway) but there appears to be a contradiction in the number of “greats” between the special and the ending.

1. In the special Goku says to Goku Jr: “you are the grandson of my granddaughter’s granddaughter’s child”. This means Goku Jr is the greatx5 grandson of Goku. Let me analyse it:
a. Goku is the grandfather of his granddaughter (Pan).
b. He is the great grandfather of his granddaughter’s child (Pan’s child)
c. He is the greatx3 grandfather of the granddaughter of Pan’s child
d. He is the greatx5 grandfather of the grandson (Goku Jr) of the granddaughter of Pan’s child

2. However in GT’s ending the announcer says that Goku’s Jr is the greatx4 grandson of Goku.

So Pan is to Goku’s Jr his greatx3 grandmother in the special but his greatx2 grandmother in GT’s ending. However the special is the one that is most likely the correct one. It was 100 years after the end of GT and given that in Dragonball Goku's family breeds when they are around 20 years old there are 5 generation spans. Therefore according to this logic Goku Jr is the 5th generation after Pan meaning that Pan is his greatx3 grandmother (and therefore Goku his greatx5 grandfather).

(If you call Goku the 1st generation then Goku Jr is 8th generation. Coming 7 generations later and being a hybrid (and assuming no incest) it makes him 1/(2^7)=1/128th Saiyan according to the special. On the other hand according to Gt's ending he is 1/64th Saiyan)
It's not an error when it's clear that Goku is having trouble trying to figure out how many "greats" should be there, trying to count on his hand to figure out how many there should be. It nevertheless strongly indicates that Goku Jr is more distantly related to Pan than simply grandmother, as it otherwise wouldn't be that hard to determine.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Speedster » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:56 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:It's not an error when it's clear that Goku is having trouble trying to figure out how many "greats" should be there, trying to count on his hand to figure out how many there should be.
Or perhaps the announcer was misinformed. I believe Goku only had trouble in figuring out the number of 'greats' required given his ("accurate") knowledge that Goku Jr was the grandson of his granddaughter's granddaughter's child.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:01 pm

Speedster wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:It's not an error when it's clear that Goku is having trouble trying to figure out how many "greats" should be there, trying to count on his hand to figure out how many there should be.
Or perhaps the announcer was misinformed. I believe Goku only had trouble in figuring out the number of 'greats' required given his ("accurate") knowledge that Goku Jr was the grandson of his granddaughter's granddaughter's child.
If you're meaning the announcer for the Budoukai, then no, because Pan confirms the generational gap between her and Goku Jr when she retorts back at Vegeta Jr's mom.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:18 pm

Speedster wrote:To be honest I couldn’t care less whether the Goku Jr special is canon or non-canon to GT (for me it is part of the story anyway) but there appears to be a contradiction in the number of “greats” between the special and the ending.

1. In the special Goku says to Goku Jr: “you are the grandson of my granddaughter’s granddaughter’s child”. This means Goku Jr is the greatx5 grandson of Goku. Let me analyse it:
a. Goku is the grandfather of his granddaughter (Pan).
b. He is the great grandfather of his granddaughter’s child (Pan’s child)
c. He is the greatx3 grandfather of the granddaughter of Pan’s child
d. He is the greatx5 grandfather of the grandson (Goku Jr) of the granddaughter of Pan’s child

2. However in GT’s ending the announcer says that Goku’s Jr is the greatx4 grandson of Goku.

So Pan is to Goku’s Jr his greatx3 grandmother in the special but his greatx2 grandmother in GT’s ending. However the special is the one that is most likely the correct one. It was 100 years after the end of GT and given that in Dragonball Goku's family breeds when they are around 20 years old there are 5 generation spans. Therefore according to this logic Goku Jr is the 5th generation after Pan meaning that Pan is his greatx3 grandmother (and therefore Goku his greatx5 grandfather).

(If you call Goku the 1st generation then Goku Jr is 8th generation. Coming 7 generations later and being a hybrid (and assuming no incest) it makes him 1/(2^7)=1/128th Saiyan according to the special. On the other hand according to Gt's ending he is 1/64th Saiyan)
I mean it is hard to make out what Goku actually says in the line. But what is clear is that he says Granddaughter twice. It could simply be that he is saying that Goku Jr. is his grandson from his granddaughter's grandaughter's child.

In that case the line is correct.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Speedster » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:48 pm

Hitiro wrote:It could simply be that he is saying that Goku Jr. is his grandson from his granddaughter's grandaughter's child.
In that case the line is correct.
You mean that he used "grandson" as a synonym to "offspring"? Goku would be the greatx3 grandfather of his granddaughter's grandaughter's child. So for the x4 to be applicable Goku Jr needs to be the son of Goku's granddaughter's grandaughter's child. Then I assume you mean combining 'son' at the start and 'child' at the end combined into a 'grandson'.

But as I said and before I find that the intent in the GT special was that Goku got the genealogical statement correctly (i.e. Goku Jr indeed being the grandson of his granddaughter's grandaughter's child) but had a problem in figuring out how many 'greats' Goku Jr would have to use in order to address him correctly. So he then he says "nevermind just call me grandpa Goku".
Last edited by Speedster on Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:54 pm

Speedster wrote:
Hitiro wrote:It could simply be that he is saying that Goku Jr. is his grandson from his granddaughter's grandaughter's child.
In that case the line is correct.
You mean that he used "grandson" as a synonym to "offspring"? Goku would be the greatx3 grandfather of his granddaughter's grandaughter's child. So for the x4 to be applicable Goku Jr needs to be the son of Goku's granddaughter's grandaughter's child.

But as I said and before I find that the intent in the GT special was that Goku got the genealogical statement correctly (i.e. Goku Jr indeed being the grandson of his granddaughter's grandaughter's child) but had a problem in figuring out how many 'greats' Goku Jr would have to use in order to address him correctly. So he then he says "nevermind just call me grandpa Goku".
No, unless you're misunderstanding what I said then that is incorrect. It would be Greatx4 grandfather. As it would be like this:

Goku: You are my grandson from

[=My=]----------[===Granddaughter's==]---------------------------[=====Grandaughter's=====][============Child=============]
Goku > Gohan > Pan(Granddaughter) > Great Granddaughter > Great great Grandaughter > Great Great Great Granddaughter > Goku Jr.(Great Great Great Great Grandson)

I'm saying Goku was saying that the grandson part was in reference to himself. Not the child at the end of his sentence.

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Speedster » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Hitiro wrote:Goku: You are my grandson from

[=My=]----------[===Granddaughter's==]---------------------------[=====Grandaughter's=====][============Child=============]
Goku > Gohan > Pan(Granddaughter) > Great Granddaughter > Great great Grandaughter > Great Great Great Granddaughter > Goku Jr.
Why do you object? You interpreted it as the son of his greatx3 granddaughter (nb. my greatx3 granddaughter= my granddaughter's granddaughter's child) as I said in my post. You are my offspring/"grandson" from my 'greatx3 granddaughter'. You have to assume Goku Jr is only one generation descendant from Goku's 'greatx3 granddaughter'. Logical? Probably. But you also have to assume the change in wording as this is not what Goku actually said. He said you are the grandson of my granddaughter's granddaughter's child.

(the edit in my previous post was that another way to word it so that it could be consistent was Goku jr to be Goku's granddaughter's granddaughter's gradson--this again results to Goku being the greatx4 grandfather of Goku Jr)

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Re: Reasons Hero's legacy not canon to GT

Post by Hitiro » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:12 pm

Speedster wrote:Why do you object? You interpreted it as the son of his greatx3 granddaughter (nb. my greatx3 granddaughter= my granddaughter's granddaughter's child) as I said in my post. You are my offspring/"grandson" from my 'greatx3 granddaughter'. You have to assume Goku Jr is only one generation descendant from Goku's 'greatx3 granddaughter'. Logical? Probably. But you also have to assume the change in wording as this is not what Goku actually said. He said you are the grandson of my granddaughter's granddaughter's child.

(the edit in my previous post was that another way to word it so that it could be consistent was Goku jr to be Goku's granddaughter's granddaughter's gradson--this again results to Goku being the greatx4 grandfather of Goku Jr)
That's why I said the sub may have been worded incorrectly. Because Granddaughter's granddaughter's child's is not a coherent translation anyway in the sentence that we are given. What would have been correct in English is "You're the grandson of my granddaughter's grandsaughter's child." Unless Goku was going back on his words and saying that Goku Jr. is the grandson of Goku's granddaughter's child. Which would be correct also because it would be this:

[=My=]----------[===Granddaughter's==]---------------------------[========Child's=========]------------------------------------------[==============Grandson===============]
Goku > Gohan > Pan(Granddaughter) > Great Granddaughter > Great great Grandaughter > Great Great Great Granddaughter > Goku Jr.(Great Great Great Great Grandson)

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