Why is Toriyama taking a massive dump on Gohan?

[DBZAOTA482]

I know Gohan's no fighter at heart but at least show him with some credibility.

Originally, I thought the whole "Gohan is a nerdy loser" thing was concoded by Toei but it turns out it's mainly Toriyama-sensei's writing.... which is strange because I didn't think the Battle of Gods movie handled him too badly (he actually got to touch Beerus) unlike the Super anime's version where Beerus didn't even view him as worth playing with. But then Resurrection F came and he looked rather derpy.

Finally, there's the scene where Vegeta suggests to bring Gohan to the Universe 6 Tournament and Goku's like "Pfft, fuck Gohan! He's a nerd... he can't even find his gi!".

Let me reiterate, I'm not one of those self-inserting Gohan fans who want SSJ2 "badassery" but I think Gohan should treated with way more respect than given by the man.

[Zephyr]

I honestly don't mind it. I've only ever liked Gohan to any significant degree, in the manga section of the story proper, during the Cell Games, and as Saiyaman. Him being a weakling and a nerd is completely fine by me, especially if it paints him further as a Wuxia "Scholar" type character.

I'd like to imagine that this would serve as a containment thread for the Gohan whining, but I know that's just wishful thinking.

[VegettoEX]

Absolutely nothing has changed since he originally wrote the manga, where every single time he set Gohan up to be something, he took it away and went with Goku (other than maybe at the Cell Game...?).

I seriously don't understand how people don't see this and/or don't accept this (No, really! I'm stumped on this!). Gohan's never going to take center stage. Toriyama wasn't comfortable with it during the original serialization, and he's not comfortable with it now.

Additionally, and I guess this requires constant repeating: Toriyama is not writing the manga published in V-Jump. We have no idea how much of the script comes from Toriyama's planned content, so until we GET any sort of confirmation, why not assign the "blame" for specific dialog beats to the person who is ACTUALLY writing it (read: Toyotaro)?

That being said, Goku's taking this future tournament stuff seriously. That's who Goku is. I don't know which Goku you're thinking of, but that sure sounds like Goku to me!

[Doctor.]

He's not. He's using Gohan as a measuring stick, which pretty much is him saying that Gohan's super strong on his own right.

Plus, he doesn't seem to like the character at all, or at least doesn't like to write him, or have the creativity to write something interesting with him.

And it's funny to see fan reaction to all of these insignificant little beatings he has been getting.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'd like to imagine that this would serve as a containment thread for the Gohan whining, but I know that's just wishful thinking.

I hope for the same, but I likewise doubt we'll ever be that lucky.

I mean, I can sympathize. For a lot of people, their favorite Gohan is his Cell Games self. And if that's what you come to Gohan for the most, then just about everything after is going to be a disappointment. But that's the thing, Gohan had his shot, and narratively, he just wasn't up to snuff, or at least Toriyama didn't think so. That's hardly 'taking a dump' on the character though. It's not like he changed the character. He didn't completely forget him and never use him anymore to leave us wondering whatever happened to Goku's first son. He let him sink naturally back into a role that Gohan was always best suited for, and that being the strongest person on the 'back up team' so to speak.

There is absolutely no shame in Gohan living a normal life. None. For the boy who's entire life has been uprooted by combat before he was even a pre-teen, it's little wonder he's even still sane now, much less has the passing interest in fighting that he does have.

The thing that really gets me though? We have every indication that Gohan will actually get to shine a bit in the next Super episode, and yet that's still not enough. I just don't understand this fanbase at times. I really don't.

[LuckyCat]

I think Toriyama enjoyed writing Gohan as a kid but once he made him an adult he got bored with him.

That said, just because he isn't written into the 5-man tournament arc doesn't mean he won't have a significant part in the future. Even that chapter in the manga had Vegeta noting Gohan having "the greatest potential of all".

[Michsi]

I'm reluctant to complain about Gohan fans, because I kinda, sorta see their point It's not fun to see a character you have for so long associated with power, potential and cool fights be given a role that just doesn't seem that entertaining. A lot of people claim that he is simply being true to character, that he was never that big on fighting and training to begin with,and that is true, but from a narrative perspective there are so many ways you could write around that. It's the same for everyone whose character used to have a certain presence and importance in the story, as a key player , and then see them gradually being pushed into the background.

[dbzfan7]

I'm reluctant to complain about Gohan fans, because I kinda, sorta see their point It's not fun to see a character you have for so long associated with power, potential and cool fights be given a role that just doesn't seem that entertaining. A lot of people claim that he is simply being true to character, that he was never that big on fighting and training to begin with,and that is true, but from a narrative perspective there are so many ways you could write around that. It's the same for everyone whose character used to have a certain presence and importance in the story, as a key player , and then see them gradually being pushed into the background.

Glad you see it. The big word though is potential. It's utterly wasted. I have no problems with how he looks and acts mostly. I don't know where people are coming up with the he has to be main character or take over for Goku, cause that's not really important. Like take for example how he slowly got weaker in the Boo saga, and then lamented. So what did he learn? Why do that again of course. Okay let's go this route again anyways, so what's the point of depowering him further? Is he going to learn anything or grow from it? Indications so far are no, no he will not. So what's the point of doing it? This post summed it beautifully.

Spoiler:

People such as myself aren't asking for him to be the main protagonist but for something a bit better than what we're getting now...
Sure he's "successful" at...

Stuff... Care to explain a bit more about what Gohan does? No? Well then it's kind of hard for me to give a crap...

This is an action/adventure story, not real life... If Gohan is successful and it adds nothing to the story then chances are I'm not gonna give a crap. Gohan ain't real so why the fuck should I care that he's successful at... well whatever the hell he does? I watch this show to be entertained and Gohan just isn't that entertaining anymore.
He still can be, episode 17 proves this.


But such things are short lived.


Dragon Ball being one of those series with a lot of fighting means Gohan's going to get his hands dirty at some point. However, does every outcome need to be this?

It's become a bad joke and I hate bad jokes...
Gohan doesn't need to be a fighter to be an interesting character, but he does need to be more than a damn punching bag...

Why should I give a crap if he's successful at.....something when the series itself doesn't care. This isn't a real life series. This is an action adventure series. As much as people love the slice of life and home stuff, that's not what the series is about. Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character. What is interesting about a person's successful showing off screen which means nothing to the series. When on screen he once again goes back to being pretty much his Namek self who isn't self reliant yet.

Toriyama seems to show he really has no interest in Gohan, which is fine by me if he'd just stop having that dead weight tie him down. Don't bother with a character you don't like, otherwise you get Chi Chi who had a horrible relationship with Goku. The next arc hopefully doesn't include Gohan, but instead has Piccolo. Instead of rehashing the Piccolo saves Gohan idea, they shoulda reversed that to Gohan dying to save Piccolo, and further motivating Piccolo's character since he may get some more time to develop now.

[fadeddreams5]

It seems the people who are fine with Gohan's portrayal in modern material either never liked the character to begin with or barely cared about him.

As a fan of the character, it makes no sense to defend this with nonsensical reasoning like "he lives a happy, normal life and is doing what he loves!"

You can be apathetic, enjoy Super, and even laugh at how Gohan is mishandled, but let's not pretend Toei and Toriyana haven't been shitting on the character. I truly believe Toriyama regrets the direction he went with him in the Buu saga.

[Vice]

Seriously? Piccolo got a punch no-sold, trashed and tossed aside and then eventually killed and we're still whining about Gohan's far superior than everyone not named Goku and Vegeta performance?

Why are y'all never satisfied with anything ever?

[JulieYBM]

Gohan was never the character during the original run that his fans like to play him up as. He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

[VegettoEX]

It seems the people who are fine with Gohan's portrayal in modern material either never liked the character to begin with or barely cared about him.

I've always liked Gohan just plenty, and in fact, I love what was done with him specifically in the Cell Game arc. I've gone on record many times with how much I love Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

but let's not pretend Toei and Toriyana haven't been shitting on the character.

I cannot agree with this.

You (and people like you?) are setting up this boogyman of a fan (and production company, for that matter) that I'm not entirely convinced actually exists.

[Michsi]

Why should I give a crap if he's successful at.....something when the series itself doesn't care. This isn't a real life series. This is an action adventure series. As much as people love the slice of life and home stuff, that's not what the series is about. Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character. What is interesting about a person's successful showing off screen which means nothing to the series. When on screen he once again goes back to being pretty much his Namek self who isn't self reliant yet.

This and the post you quoted pretty much sums it up.

What's worse is that the Buu Saga kinda established his lack of training for all those years as a mistake on his part, something he paid for during his first fight with Buu. It wasn't directly addressed, but you'd think he learned his lesson. That he lets this happen a second time makes him look worse than just simply loosing.

Instead of rehashing the Piccolo saves Gohan idea, they shoulda reversed that to Gohan dying to save Piccolo, and further motivating Piccolo's character since he may get some more time to develop now.

Wow, this is actually one of my biggest wishes regarding what I'd like to see happen one day and I'm happy to see someone else thought of it too. The Piccolo saving Gohan scene was a bit on the nose with the callback to the Saiyan arc so it didn't really have an emotional impact on me.

He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead.

I think there are MCs in action series that also have a similar mindset regarding battle, that shouldn't be the only deciding factor. Besides, I don't think not having a major role is the only problem. Use him less, fine, but when you do, do it well.

[LuckyCat]

He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

This is partially true. It's hard to deny Gohan had a huge amount of Character Focus from Saiyan - Saiya-man saga. Many times he acted as surrogate Goku when Goku was offscreen getting healed or training or whatever. To say that Gohan's portrayal hasn't changed over the years is an overstatement.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan has been firmly established as not training or caring about being strong for far longer than he has anything else. It is as much a part of his character as everything Kuririn has been about since he stopped being a crude little snot to Gokuu.

What was the lesson Gohan learned during the Majin Buu arc? Don't worry about your lack of training, you'll get a magical power-up to unleash all of your power and when the author gets bored of you he'll just replace you with a character he actually likes, Gokuu, who will always be where the strongest guy is.

That Toriyama has managed to commit to a portrayal of Gohan for so long is admirable. He's finally consistent and dictated by his circumstances. He is finally his own man and has escaped his dad's shadow.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan was never the character during the original run that his fans like to play him up as. He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

Gohan was introduced as a non-fighter who progressively evolved into a young warrior. Yeah, he was never given the center stage in favor of his father, but from the very beginning, it was clear he had a hidden potential that allowed him to close the gaps between himself and any of his opponents when he was greatly angered. The Android saga failed at properly utilizing this character until the very end, making his transition into a killing machine kind of out of place, especially considering he had the least connections with any of the villains. However, what happened at the Cell Games is what everyone expected to happen at one point in the story since this character's inception.

My point? People tend to bring up the fact that he wasn't a fighter like his father and never killed any of the main bad guys before the Cell Games. But... well, duh. He was a developing fighter that still managed to have defining moments. So I fail to see the logic. Are you saying it's OKAY for him to regress rather than further showcasing his talents as a fighter in a show about fighting? Is Toriyama going the optimal direction by weakening Gohan, stripping him of his unique qualities, and constantly having him one-shotted because the character always wanted to be a scholar in his story?

Nobody wants Gohan to become a ruthless warrior who rips his enemies' hearts out and devours them. Likewise, nobody is asking for him to become the main protagonist. We just want the writers to be a tad more creative with the character, or just leave him off-screen, rather than having him become weaker and contribute virtually nothing, despite being the strongest good guy at the end of DBZ. I know a lot of fans hate the fact that, unlike Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, and so on, Gohan is special as far as abilities go, but he is and always was. Nobody can turn back time and change that. So it's a disservice to the character to place him in the mix with those other jobbers now, imo.

I've always liked Gohan just plenty, and in fact, I love what was done with him specifically in the Cell Game arc. I've gone on record many times with how much I love Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

So his portrayal in Super doesn't bug you, even a tiny bit? You wouldn't want a bit more done with him as a fighter (mind you, the upcoming episode might have this)?

[B]

his portrayal in Super doesn't bug you, even a tiny bit? You wouldn't want a bit more done with him as a fighter (mind you, the upcoming episode might have this)?

No. That sounds like inconsistent characterization to me. A confident, able-bodied Gohan doesn't make any sense unless he's been put under some type of immense stress that results in an alien power-up of some sort.

[Doctor.]

Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character.

Was he ever?

[dbzfan7]

This and the post you quoted pretty much sums it up.

What's worse is that the Buu Saga kinda established his lack of training for all those years as a mistake on his part, something he paid for during his first fight with Buu. It wasn't directly addressed, but you'd think he learned his lesson. That he lets this happen a second time makes him look worse than just simply loosing.

The funny thing is Gohan does acknowledge that more dangers are probably going to come when telling his mom, so he really is aware that earth constantly falls under threat, and yet does nothing about it. The impression I'm getting is "leave it to daddy to solve all my problems". Essentially regressing the character back further to his 5 year old self. I'd be fine with the current angle if he learned or did something that progresses his character, but it doesn't. All that's been going on is removing any special characteristic's he's had, and leaving him in the background. His only real role in the series right now is not to be family man like some people keep saying, but to be beaten up and be a measuring stick. That is his real only contribution as of late.

Instead of rehashing the Piccolo saves Gohan idea, they shoulda reversed that to Gohan dying to save Piccolo, and further motivating Piccolo's character since he may get some more time to develop now.

Wow, this is actually one of my biggest wishes regarding what I'd like to see happen one day and I'm happy to see someone else thought of it too. The Piccolo saving Gohan scene was a bit on the nose with the callback to the Saiyan arc so it didn't really have an emotional impact on me.

Also cause death is pretty meaningless now, but even so Piccolo's death here just means nothing to Gohan's character. In the Saiyan arc, it pushed Gohan to go to Namek. He felt obligated to do so after Piccolo sacrificed himself. Here it's unlikely to have any impact since in the next arc, there isn't really any implication of Gohan beyond he's a loser who can't find his gi and studies a lot. Fine by me as they haven't done any good with him, but bad in the sense it makes Piccolo's death a lame meaningless call back.

I think there are MCs in action series that also have a similar mindset regarding battle, that shouldn't be the only deciding factor. Besides, I don't think not having a major role is the only problem. Use him less, fine, but when you do, do it well.

It's my biggest problem with the current main characters. They all have the exact same motivation and wants. Love food, love fighting, and do pretty much absolutely nothing beyond maybe 1 or 2 things. That's Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis in a nutshell. It's boring. We're given the mentality that if you are not the above, you essentially are not worth following or growing in any way.

Gohan simply now is not a well written or interesting character.

Was he ever?

I'd say so. Best written no. If he was pretty poor I can't imagine him being so popular during the serializations run. But honestly Dragon Ball isn't very well written to begin with anyways. It's the junk food of writing. It's delicious, but not very complex or layered. It meant to be pretty simple.

[Lord Beerus]

Although, I do like Gohan, I never really cared for the character to the extent where I would outraged or upset by how has been portrayed in Super. I certainly enjoyed how his character developed in the Saiyan arc, his antics at high school in the Majin Boo arc and his tomfoolery as the great Saiyaman. But other than that... meh. I mean, at the end of the day, he has a profession in doing what he likes, has a wife and child and seems happy with his life. It would be nice to see Gohan get more involved in major events in Super, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it if he doesn't. Besides, when the time calls for it, he'll get his potential unlocked again and he'll be at the top of the food chain once more.