Unpopular DB opinions

[LuckyCat]

Gohan has no personal conection with Cell and he was out of the fighting for the whole arc. Cell being a jerk to him is just a last minute thing as they fight, without any interaction between them before that. That makes the catharsis of Gohan surpassing Cell just as shallow as Gohan becoming that emotional over the death of an Android he had never talked to before (instead of getting that way over his friends and family being on the brink of death).

I was referring to catharsis for the protagonists and audience generally. I do think that Gohan has a connection with Cell, but I'm not interested in that discussion at the moment.

[Doctor.]

Sure he did, he accepted his Saiyan heritage for example and then you have underrated scenes of development like him threatening Kaioshin that go completely against his previous characterization. I can agree that he's a putz though, but he's like that on purpose.

I wouldn't say those examples prove that he's not one-dimensional in terms of emotion or psychology. They didn't change anything about him. His acceptance of his "saiyan heritage" didn't really change anything about his persona or way of being. I also don't see Goku threatening Supreme Kai as something that revolutionary; he's killed before, that scene didn't come as a shock to me. In fact I'd expect Goku to do just that to pretty much anyone trying to get in between his opportunity to have a good fight.

I would argue that he stopped being a lot less merciful after Freeza betrayed him, and threatening to kill the androids, Cell (seriously, just look at how a parallel is established between SS2 Gohan and Namek SS Goku), Dabra, Kaioshin and killing Yakon and Boo kinda prove this somewhat, when Namek arc Goku would have given them all a second chance, either out of pity, mercy, or because he'd want to fight them again.

I'd say Goku accepting his Saiyan heritage changes a lot about the character. It changes his outlook on life, since he embraces his more battle-addicted side and also starts respecting the Saiyans (his speech on Namek, wearing the Saiyan armor), when before he REFUSED to call himself one. The revelation that he's a Saiyan also changes our perception of the character, as in suddenly he stops being this super-strong human who inexplicably had huge potential compared to everyone else, and becomes the lowest of the low in his race and someone who worked harder than expected for the power he got.

Now does this mean that Goku's still underdeveloped? Of course, he's probably the only main character in the series who hasn't been used to his fullest potential yet, which is kinda sad.

[fadeddreams5]

Goku did not kill Yakon. That creature idiotically killed itself; it could have shut its own mouth at any time.

Buu was a mindless killing machine. There was very little choice but to kill him.

If Goku had any intentions of killing Dabura, which I don't recall, it was to restore Krillin and Piccolo.

Cell was way too dangerous to keep alive, given his personality, the cells he possesses, and the reason he was created in the first place. Even then, Goku gave him a senzu bean at one point...

Goku was hardly thinking straight when he threatened Kaioshin. His saiyan testosterone was going crazy upon being challenged by Majin Vegeta and seeing him kill innocent people.

[precita]

The Buu saga is very fun. Its also pretty excellent up to the point from the Pikkon filler throughout when Majin Vegeta sacrifices himself for Buu.

Even though from that point on its just power up to various power up failing, its still done in an entertaining way. SSJ3 Goku was an amazing transformation the first time it was used, Gotenks crazy attacks and humor made his fights fun to watch, Gohan became badass again, and Vegito is a loved character. I also like that the final fight is on the Kai planet with Goku using everyone on Earth to contribute to beat Buu.

Likewise the Satan/Buu friendship is great, as is the dark aspects of that mass murderer killing people and shooting Satan. Honestly had Gohan survived Earth's explosion and been in the final fight with Goku/Vegeta against Kid Buu, it would have been seen as much more favorable. Granted Gohan would be able to kill Kid Buu alone, but eh, I felt like he should have been there.

[Doctor.]

Goku did not kill Yakon. That creature idiotically killed itself; it could have shut its own mouth at any time.

Don't try to defend Goku here. He smirked, turned Super Saiyan 2 in an instant and blew Yakon up. He knew exactly what he did, he was the one who killed him.

If Goku had any intentions of killing Dabura, which I don't recall, it was to restore Krillin and Piccolo.

Yeah, but he still said he'd kill him and that it'd be "easy".

[fadeddreams5]

Don't try to defend Goku here. He smirked, turned Super Saiyan 2 in an instant and blew Yakon up. He knew exactly what he did, he was the one who killed him.

Goku clearly just wanted to give him indigestion.

[rereboy]

Gohan has no personal conection with Cell and he was out of the fighting for the whole arc. Cell being a jerk to him is just a last minute thing as they fight, without any interaction between them before that. That makes the catharsis of Gohan surpassing Cell just as shallow as Gohan becoming that emotional over the death of an Android he had never talked to before (instead of getting that way over his friends and family being on the brink of death).

I was referring to catharsis for the protagonists and audience generally. I do think that Gohan has a connection with Cell, but I'm not interested in that discussion at the moment.

So was I. And it's shallow for the reasons I stated, imo.

[ABED]

This is one of the few times I'm in agreement with Rereboy (sorry if that seems like a backhanded compliment), but Gohan has no connection with Cell, so the catharsis isn't there. Oddly enough, Gohan turning SS2 is still a moment that gives me chills, but it's not nearly as well done as it should be. I'm glad 16 served some purpose in the story, but he has no connection to Gohan so I'm not sure why he would be the final straw.

[LuckyCat]

I'm glad 16 served some purpose in the story, but he has no connection to Gohan so I'm not sure why he would be the final straw.

This is a valid criticism, and I get it: Piccolo, or Goku or even Krillin are much more connected to Gohan. I think Toriyama didn't want to just repeat what happened to Goku turning SSJ (i.e. a buddy dies, hero is pissed, new transformation time). #16 works in some sense because #16 acted similar to Gohan earlier by avoiding fights. The difference is, #16 knew when it was time to step up to fight, despite his care for nature. #16 tried to then impart that wisdom to Gohan. It could've been flushed out better, with Gohan talking to #16 beforehand or something, but I think there's overall enough tidbits lying around to make the sequence work.

Alternatively, you could interpret it that Gohan never had any connection to #16, but seeing #16 go from a functioning sentient being to a pile of scraps showed Gohan an image of what could soon be one of his friends if he didn't act then and there.

[voltlunok]

I'm glad 16 served some purpose in the story, but he has no connection to Gohan so I'm not sure why he would be the final straw.

To just throw my two cents in on this and keep in mind, this is just how I took the scene and have looked at it since. I think that yes, after 16 was killed, Gohan was pissed at Cell but I think he was also pissed at himself. I think he was mad that 16 basically died for his mistake of not going at Cell full force. I think that is what caused Gohan to finally snap and go SSJ2, not that his friend died but that an innocent being died for his screw up and he is mad at not only the thing that killed the innocent being but mad at himself because he could have prevented it. That's just how I took the scene though.

I do agree that Gohan and Cell, really don't have a dynamic to make the fight more enthralling, just that its there and Goku is like "Gohan do this. Thanks." its weird and even a little out of left field, its still one of my favorite moments but it is definitely flawed in some cases.

[Lord Beerus]

Oh, I love the Majin Boo arc. It feels like such a throwback to the days of when Dragon Ball knew how to properly balance comedy, action and drama, while developing characters, too. Not to mention the filler in the anime adaption is only bested by the Saiyan arc filler.

You mean the days when it did not become the success it did during most dramatic Saiyan/Freeza/Cell sagas? As for proper balance, it hardly adds much when overall writing quality and plot construction declined heavily compared to previous 2 sagas. It's not that there wasn't some good worthy stuff in Buu, there sure was, but there was also a LOT more crap there versus other 2 major DBZ sagas and the plot had the least excitement, twists&turns etc.

Dragon Ball had already become immensely popular prior to the Saiyan/Freeza/Cell sagas in Japan. I'll agree that the Majin Boo arc didn't have the best narrative, but the arc as a whole just felt so whimsical and charming. Plus, the character development of Vegeta, Mr Satan and Majin Boo was excellent. While I can appreciate the Android/Cell arc for its emphasis on drama, it just felt a bit out of place because every arc prior to it knew how to provide proper emphasis on action, drama and comedy, which was made Dragon Ball loved and so well known.

[ABED]

hile I can appreciate the Android/Cell arc for its emphasis on drama, it just felt a bit out of place because every arc prior to it knew how to provide proper emphasis on action, drama and comedy

That's not exactly true. Each arc had a different degree of drama and action and comedy. The Piccolo Daimao arc firmly planted in the more dramatic territory. I like when shows shift tones season to season. Buffy: season 6 and season 3 are very different tonally without being a different series.

What doesn't ring true to me about 16's death being the catalyst is that supposedly 16's words were the thing that gave Gohan the final push, but 1 - Gohan doesn't really know 16, and 2 - When did Gohan have an issue defending the people and things he cared about except in the Saiyan arc?

The one thing I like about 16 being the one to do it is that his inclusion in the arc isn't merely a plot twist. He's not simply introduced to show how different the regular timeline is from Trunks'.

[Lord Beerus]

hile I can appreciate the Android/Cell arc for its emphasis on drama, it just felt a bit out of place because every arc prior to it knew how to provide proper emphasis on action, drama and comedy

That's not exactly true. Each arc had a different degree of drama and action and comedy. The Piccolo Daimao arc firmly planted in the more dramatic territory. I like when shows shift tones season to season. Buffy: season 6 and season 3 are very different tonally without being a different series.

What doesn't ring true to me about 16's death being the catalyst is that supposedly 16's words were the thing that gave Gohan the final push, but 1 - Gohan doesn't really know 16, and 2 - When did Gohan have an issue defending the people and things he cared about except in the Saiyan arc?

The one thing I like about 16 being the one to do it is that his inclusion in the arc isn't merely a plot twist. He's not simply introduced to show how different the regular timeline is from Trunks'.

Even with the drama of the King Piccolo arc there was still a good balance of comedy from the likes of Yajirobe. In the Saiyan arc we got King Kai and his wack training methods, on Namek we got the Ginyu Force, then when from when Freeza took on the Z-Fighters to the Cell Games there little to no emphasis on comedy save a gag or two from Mr Satan. The point I'm trying to make is for whenever there was a focus on drama in Dragon Ball the focus on comedy wasn't lost. That wasn't the case during the Android/Cell arc.

[precita]

The Buu saga toned up the epicness simply because Toriyama knew it was his final arc. Every main character dies except for a few. The entire Earth is blown up for the first time in the shows history. Kid Buu was out there to destroy the entire universe, and even coming to the afterlife proved he could even wipe out all the Kai's and all the people who were already dead too. Kid Buu was going to eradicate all life everywhere. We've never gotten that again. Kid Buu was pure evil with no reasonable thought or conscience, someone even the Kai's all feared, the perfect final villain.

Goku failed at protecting the Earth for the first time in the series history. For all intents and purposes the Buu arc really was the perfect finale chapter for the franchise. Its almost a shame it continued after with GT and Super.

[Kid Buu]

So having just rewatched Movie 8, I'm gonna have to say that I actually like that film and Broli in that film.

[ABED]

The point I'm trying to make is for whenever there was a focus on drama in Dragon Ball the focus on comedy wasn't lost. That wasn't the case during the Android/Cell arc.

But that doesn't make it a focus, and he wasn't primarily played for laughs. Yajirobe's pretty badass in that arc.

[DBZAOTA482]

The point I'm trying to make is for whenever there was a focus on drama in Dragon Ball the focus on comedy wasn't lost. That wasn't the case during the Android/Cell arc.

But that doesn't make it a focus, and he wasn't primarily played for laughs. Yajirobe's pretty badass in that arc.

Yeah, that's one problem I have with DBZ. It made Yajirobe seem all cowardly and unskilled when he was a great fighter in DB and an experienced swordsman.'
'
Yajirobe and Chi-Chi were both amazing in DB yet were nerfed by DBZ (Chi-Chi's case is downright severe).

Gohan has no personal conection with Cell and he was out of the fighting for the whole arc. Cell being a jerk to him is just a last minute thing as they fight, without any interaction between them before that. That makes the catharsis of Gohan surpassing Cell just as shallow as Gohan becoming that emotional over the death of an Android he had never talked to before (instead of getting that way over his friends and family being on the brink of death).

Wait... Cell being a jerk is a last minute thing? You realized this is a guy who psychologically messed with Vegeta and scared off most of the Earth's population for kicks?

Gohan wasn't mad that #16 died but more of the cruelty in his fate. #16 was reduced to a head pleading to Gohan to not be afraid of losing control over his power so he can protect the nature and life he, too, had loved yet Cell callously steps on him.

[rereboy]

Wait... Cell being a jerk is a last minute thing? You realized this is a guy who psychologically messed with Vegeta and scared off most of the Earth's population for kicks?

Gohan wasn't mad that #16 died but more of the cruelty in his fate. #16 was reduced to a head pleading to Gohan to not be afraid of losing control over his power so he can protect the nature and life he, too, had loved yet Cell callously steps on him.

Cell being a jerk to Gohan was a last minute thing, just like any other sort of back and forth between them.

Yeah, and Gohan should care more about that than his friends and family being tortured and almost killed in front of him for several minutes (while he just stands there, not even trying to attack Cell or the Cell jrs with all his power, like he always did before when the situation was dire) why, exactly?

[ABED]

What do you mean Cell being a jerk to Gohan was a last minute thing? Cell is a dick by his nature.

Yajirobe and Chi-Chi were both amazing in DB yet were nerfed by DBZ (Chi-Chi's case is downright severe).

I don't think that term applies here. They were just surpassed. Chichi was a great martial artist by human standards but she didn't keep up with it.

[rereboy]

What do you mean Cell being a jerk to Gohan was a last minute thing? Cell is a dick by his nature.

Because the brief moments of him being a jerk to gohan in their fight are not enough to compensate the fact that Gohan was away from the fighting and action for the whole arc and that there's a lack of conection\relevance between him and Cell.

For the mentioned catharsis to not be shallow, some things had to be a little different earlier (and also during the Cell games).