Unpopular DB opinions

[Doctor.]

I don't think anyone is saying Monaca is a bad character because of his design. We just don't like his design.

[LightBing]

I don't think anyone is saying Monaca is a bad character because of his design. We just don't like his design.

I didn't say anyone thought Monaca was a bad character. Just pointing out that your assumption of the author intentions with character, which appear to weight in you evaluation of the design, maybe aren't correct. You did say the character was bland and forgettable, but only this and another sentence about the lack of details, qualify as solely criticism of the design itself. The rest are opinions which are formed based on assumptions, that's what I responded to on my previous post.

[AS_Saiyan]

Going back a bit to the Chala Head Chala opening -
Chala Head Chala is my favorite mostly due to nostalgia, I remember as a child hearing the start of the opening and running as fast as I can to the living room cause "THERES A NEW DBZ EPISODE RIGHT NOW". The song bring to me so many memories that I can't not love it.
BUT, I do agree there are more great openings in the franchise, some as good (and even better) than Chala. Mostly Dan Dan and Dragon Soul.

[ABED]

DBZAOTA482, sure, Goku knows a new technique, but that entire fight wasn't just to show that one thing. It was primarily supposed to be funny, not the action, but that she's upset at him and he doesn't know why, all the while, they are supposed to be fighting. And for the life of me, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Goku is barely managing to avoid her.

it actually taught Yamcha a valuable lesson to not "Judge a book by it's cover"

By showing him landing on his nards. Yeah, it wasn't a complete gag fight such as the one between Jackie Chun and Man-Wolf, but it is VERY funny.

just disagreeing with you suggesting the idea of Toriyama wrote that fight in to empathize how much weaker she is to Goku to the point of ridicule rather than intent to show her as a serious competitor.... so basically you are saying she sucks

You completely misread my post. It's not to emphasize how weak she is. The fight was played for humor. Yes, she's strong in comparison to the audience and the other fighters but not against our heroes and Piccolo, but when most of the fight consists of Goku wondering why someone is so angry at him for the entire match instead of thinking of a strategy to achieve victory, I don't think that could ever be considered a serious battle.

Piccolo took time to have a conversation with Shen (wanting to know who he is) when he fought him and most of their fight was talking... that doesn't make it any less serious.

The tone of their conversation wasn't comedic.

The gag argument just seems like a blatant attempt at downplaying her and I can't respect that. I mean, do you realize how bad it is? I can't even get away from some people who think Videl (of all people) can beat just because Goku didn't lay a finger on her.

And yet again, you are implying that I'm sexist. It has nothing to do with her sex. I have no clue what your point is regarding Videl. I have no idea how I'm supposed to take this than you think i have something against a female character. Would you lose respect for someone if they said the same thing about a male character?

Just the fact she was good enough to catch their attention and the fact she got so strong in such amount of time with just the Turtle Hermit training under her belt shows she can become a fairly strong human Z-Warrior (or at least more relevant than Chiaotzu) under the right circumstances.

Maybe Chaozu, but catching their attention doesn't equal her being nearly as strong as you are implying. She does things that surprise them but that has more to do with their expectations and not concrete proof that she's this absolutely amazing warrior. At her strongest, I might place her around Goku's level during the 21st Bukokai.

He did fight on par.

That's not on par. Being winded means Tenshinhan is expending much more energy to keep up with Goku's skills. Your point that he was only breathing heavy b/c Goku not making unneccessary movements is also odd because that still means they aren't on par. Goku has much greater skill than Tenshinhan. Sure, Tenshinhan has greater speed when Goku's handicapped, but Goku's skill and endurance evens it out.

The fact that they held their own against Goku... even if he was holding back... is what's notable... because Goku is still insanely strong regardless

It's notable but still not as impressive. It's like saying someone's skills are notable because they could hold their own against Bruce Lee with his arms tied behind his back. Had Goku tapped Chichi on the back of the Chichi's neck, there's a good chance that she could've been KO'ed just as easily.

Did he really know... or just he just wanna avoid trouble altogether?

He did know. How could he not? If the second Piccolo was stronger than the first one and it took both Goku and Piccolo to stop Raditz AND Vegeta was said to be even stronger, how could he not know? Hell, Kami was training him and the others for that very reason. Not that it matters, Yajirobe liked avoiding trouble.

and there's a distinction between skill and technique.

Technique falls under the umbrella of skill. That's my point.

[Hellspawn28]

I still watch Super over GT. The retellings of BOG and ROF may not be great, but I still like them over the Black Star Dragon Ball arc and Super 17 saga. Not to mention the humor in Super made me laugh a lot while GT never did that to me. Super still has Beerus and Beerus is more enjoyable then any of the main villains in GT in my opinion.

[DBZAOTA482]

DBZAOTA482, sure, Goku knows a new technique, but that entire fight wasn't just to show that one thing. It was primarily supposed to be funny, not the action, but that she's upset at him and he doesn't know why, all the while, they are supposed to be fighting. And for the life of me, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Goku is barely managing to avoid her.

I know that... my original comment... and no, only the payoff was comical in nature (i.e. the proposal of marriage and Goku's lack of understanding of the outside world).... the actual fighting was played pretty straight and it was there to create hype for Chi-Chi by painting her as an extremely strong fighter (hence Roshi's statements regarding her abilities). The fact Goku tries to gain distance from her (even forcing him to escape into the air) and put an active effort to block/parrying her attacks rather than basically just standing there and dodging them. He barely managed to dodge her initial attack (his speech bubble with the battle cry had exclamations points), and she even matched his casual 50+ meter jump to avoid an attack and fought him in mid-air.

If Goku was acting something like this, was afraid of Chi-Chi's anger, and/or Chi-Chi herself was 100% about the fight... I'd understand. I don't understand what your idea of a joke is.

By showing him landing on his nards. Yeah, it wasn't a complete gag fight such as the one between Jackie Chun and Man-Wolf, but it is VERY funny.

Not all fights have to be completely serious to be legit. That fight actually showcased Yamcha's growth as a fighter... he had Kami drop the Shen persona and take the fight somewhat seriously.

I don't think any fight can be viewed primarily comical unless it's something like that brief scrap with Goku and Lunch or any fight with Mr. Satan. Even that fight with Jackie and Man-Wolf showed how crazy strong Jackie Chun was.

You completely misread my post. It's not to emphasize how weak she is. The fight was played for humor. Yes, she's strong in comparison to the audience and the other fighters but not against our heroes and Piccolo, but when most of the fight consists of Goku wondering why someone is so angry at him for the entire match instead of thinking of a strategy to achieve victory, I don't think that could ever be considered a serious battle.

No, I posted what's the gist of what you're saying. All you're basically saying is she's a fly compared to Goku and that she was destined for mediocrity (same with Yajirobe) then resorting to the gag argument which is bothersome. The fact you brought this up after saying Goku was going easy on her was red flags for me.

There's no other way it can be funny unless she was really piss-weak compared to him.... or he suddenly holds back against women now. What's the joke behind it?

The tone of their conversation wasn't comedic.

Neither was Goku and Chi-Chi bar from Goku lack of understanding in the outside world (marriage, intimate relationship, etc.) and even that's a major plot-point.

And yet again, you are implying that I'm sexist. It has nothing to do with her sex. I have no clue what your point is regarding Videl. I have no idea how I'm supposed to take this than you think i have something against a female character. Would you lose respect for someone if they said the same thing about a male character?

I'm not implying your sexist... I was just taking a jab at your argument about Goku vs. Chi-Chi as a whole being written in for comedy rather than intent show her as a serious competitor (which Toriyama already alluded to) thus not quantifiable. It only reminds me of the "Chi-Chi is only strong in gag" nonsense.

It's not gonna be played for laughs just because you say so.

Also, I would not be okay with that either... downplaying is wrong like the people who downplay the kids (Goten and Trunks).

Maybe Chaozu, but catching their attention doesn't equal her being nearly as strong as you are implying. She does things that surprise them but that has more to do with their expectations and not concrete proof that she's this absolutely amazing warrior. At her strongest, I might place her around Goku's level during the 21st Bukokai.

I think you're missing my point. I'm speaking more in regards to her potential and she breezed through the prelims in a similar fashion the other finalists have. I'm not saying she's as strong as Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, or Piccolo but the fact that the Z-Warriors were amazed that this girl who'd they would figure is already an above-average fighter was as strong as she was shows they at least view her as a worthy contender for the hardest of the Tenkaichi Budokai (of which only the super elites make it in) and the fact she got that strong in such a short amount of time (7 years) shows she can become a fairly strong Z-Warrior if she seriously applied herself (or at least more relevant than Chiaotzu).

Also, I doubt 21st Budokai Goku can manage anything against 23rd Budokai Goku at all serious or not.

That's not on par. Being winded means Tenshinhan is expending much more energy to keep up with Goku's skills. Your point that he was only breathing heavy b/c Goku not making unneccessary movements is also odd because that still means they aren't on par. Goku has much greater skill than Tenshinhan. Sure, Tenshinhan has greater speed when Goku's handicapped, but Goku's skill and endurance evens it out.

I didn't say they were dead-even but he was capable of fighting on Weighted Goku's level. Also, his speed wasn't just marginally better... he completely blitzed him.

It's notable but still not as impressive. It's like saying someone's skills are notable because they could hold their own against Bruce Lee with his arms tied behind his back. Had Goku tapped Chichi on the back of the Chichi's neck, there's a good chance that she could've been KO'ed just as easily.

Not really, it's more Bruce Lee pulling back his punches at a certain level. Goku could raise his battle power at will even as far as the 22nd Budokai and regardless, a feat is still a feat.

I doubt the Goku she fought could do that... considering Krillin and Yamcha were way more impressed with her defeat than they were of King Chappa's, and she still got up just fine (despite Goku worrying that he may have used too much energy) plus Goku didn't even fight at full power while weighted against either of them given his strength increase wasn't noted till around his fight with Tien (Goku didn't use any of his real strength in that slight neck chop).

He did know. How could he not?

He's not omniscient.

Technique falls under the umbrella of skill. That's my point.

They're related but they're not the same, regardless.... my point is his skill and power was empathized rather than technique... Krillin was simply no match for match-level Goku.

[ABED]

Maybe you felt only the payoff was comical in nature, but when I see someone trying to hit someone and the other person trying their best to figure out why the other person is mad instead of fighting in a tournament setting in "gag manga" I'm inclined to think that we're supposed to think that's funny. I thought it was funny.

You take every little thing and make way too much out of it. Goku isn't at all barely dodging her. It's played for laughs. The fact that she can jump high just proves that she's stronger than the average fighter, not that she's in the league of our heroes. In their marriage, Goku is afraid of Chichi getting angry. Why would he be afraid of someone who couldn't physically hurt him? It's played for laughs. Clearly we have two very different ideas of what constitutes a humorous fight.

Even that fight with Jackie and Man-Wolf showed how crazy strong Jackie Chun was.

I can just as easily turn your logic around. Just because a fight shows a few moments like what you're referring to, doesn't equate to it being a serious fight.

No, I posted what's the gist of what you're saying. All you're basically saying is she's a fly compared to Goku and that she was destined for mediocrity (same with Yajirobe) then resorting to the gag argument which is bothersome. The fact you brought this up after saying Goku was going easy on her was red flags for me.

There's no other way it can be funny unless she was really piss-weak compared to him.... or he suddenly holds back against women now. What's the joke behind it?

She WAS a fly compared to him. Hell, Tenshinhan was as well. He was holding back against everyone except Piccolo. What's the joke with Chichi? Everything I wrote. I didn't say Yajirobe was destined for mediocrity. And the conversation between Chichi and Goku absolutely was humorous. Being a "plot point" doesn't mean it wasn't played for humor. Piccolo vs. Kami was completely different tonally. Why are you using words like "red flags" or taking this seemingly so personally about Chichi? And no, she wasn't destined for mediocrity, please stop putting words in my mouth. Could Chichi have been written to become a better fighter? Sure, she could've become a member of the team, but she didn't and that doesn't bother me. I was never a big fan of her character to begin with. And what is with your animus towards Chaozu?

It's not gonna be played for laughs just because you say so.

I don't get the point of writing anything like this. Of course it isn't because I say it is. And it's not serious because you say so. I'm saying it's funny because the overall tone isn't serious. It's the funny fight of the tournament just like Namu vs. Ranfan or Kuririn vs. Chaozu. Each tournament has at least one that is played for humor.

I'm speaking more in regards to her potential and she breezed through the prelims in a similar fashion the other finalists have

So did Tao Pai Pai and I never claimed she wasn't better than most fighters in the DB world, just nowhere near the DB gang. And of course they would be amazed by her, they never heard of her and she came seemingly out of nowhere. She was worthy of making it to the final 8, but she wasn't getting past the first round, I don't think even against Tao Pai Pai. We don't know exactly how strong she is because she faced the absolute best and did nothing to him.

Not really, it's more Bruce Lee pulling back his punches at a certain level.

A handicap is a handicap. Either way, it's not much of a feat if your opponent holds back one way or another.

He's not omniscient.

He's not an absolute imbecile either. There's no need for him to be omniscient to come to an obvious conclusion. If Piccolo and Goku can't defeat a subordinate, Yajirobe stands no chance in hell of defeating the big bad.

They're related but they're not the same

Hence "under the umbrella. In any event, what Goku did to defeat Chichi and Kuririn was similar. Not the same, SIMILAR. In both cases, neither had a true chance of defeating Goku, and Kuririn only did well because Goku was using his match-strength, i.e., he was holding back. Chichi didn't even do THAT well. This whole thing about Chichi started when you claimed she was nerfed. She wasn't. What did we truly see of her fighting skills? She cut the head off of a dinosaur and she couldn't touch Goku. How you figure she was nerfed when what she did wasn't particularly impressive. Yes, in real life that would be impressive, but with in the context of the show, not being able to faze Goku doesn't give you much to go on. Her power wasn't reduced, her character changed and stopped fighting. Piccolo was nerfed when one of Freeza's peons in the last movie was able to fight him one on one.

downplaying is wrong

As in immoral?

I didn't say they were dead-even but he was capable of fighting on Weighted Goku's level. Also, his speed wasn't just marginally better... he completely blitzed him.

He wasn't fighting him on the same level. He has one thing over Goku, but Goku had everything else. He was stronger, had more stamina, and was more skilled. The gap wasn't between them wasn't a gulf like the one between Goku and Chichi, hence why Goku felt the need to take off his weighted training gear, but I don't think he was still in any danger of losing the match regardless.

[Kuririn Fan]

Can you guys duke it out in PMs? It's kinda boring for the rest of us.

[ABED]

Can you guys duke it out in PMs? It's kinda boring for the rest of us.

Fair enough, but you aren't obligated to read, you can just bring up another opinion you believe is unpopular.

[Kuririn Fan]

Can you guys duke it out in PMs? It's kinda boring for the rest of us.

Fair enough, but you aren't obligated to read, you can just bring up another opinion you believe is unpopular.

I'm sorry, man, i feel kinda bad right now. It was just a suggestion.

[Doctor.]

I love Zenkai Power.

[Khin]

Chi Chi is one of my favorite character,Cell Games Gohan SUCKS and Boo Saga is my favorite Saga.

[TheatreStyleKai]

I enjoyed Dragon Ball movies 8 and 10.

Funimation's dub of Movie 8, Bardock: The Father of Goku, and the History of Trunks is more enjoyable than the original Japanese.

[The Patrolman]

I hate Colleen Clinkenbeard Gohan and 18 performances. They really just annoy me to no end for some reason. They shouldve gotten Alison Viktorin to voice Gohan and Stephanie Young to voice 18.

As much as I love Dameon Clarke as Perfect Cell, his Kai voice is just laughably bad to hear his screams are just unintentionally hilarious because of how he doe. If it was up to me I would've chose Crispin Freeman as Cell.

I could never ever get into Movie 3. It was just a movie that never entertained me.

To me Dub Goku doesn't really sound Superman to me. "But he makes heroic speeches" So what? Naruto, Luke Skywalker, Luffy, Kenichi Shirahama, and Captain America all make heroic speeches but that doesn't make them Superman wannabes. And before thats not something Goku would ever say. Here is a quote that Goku said to Frieza before the epic battle.

And in the name of all the Saiyans that you have killed as well as the people of Planet Namek I WILL DEFEAT YOU

Tell me that doesn't sound heroic.

[Soppa Saia People]

I hate Colleen Clinkenbeard Gohan and 18 performances. They really just annoy me to no end for some reason. They shouldve gotten Alison Viktorin to voice Gohan and Stephanie Young to voice 18.

As much as I love Dameon Clarke as Perfect Cell, his Kai voice is just laughably bad to hear his screams are just unintentionally hilarious because of how he doe. If it was up to me I would've chose Crispin Freeman as Cell.

I could never ever get into Movie 3. It was just a movie that never entertained me.

To me Dub Goku doesn't really sound Superman to me. "But he makes heroic speeches" So what? Naruto, Luke Skywalker, Luffy, Kenichi Shirahama, and Captain America all make heroic speeches but that doesn't make them Superman wannabes. And before thats not something Goku would ever say. Here is a quote that Goku said to Freeza before the epic battle.

And in the name of all the Saiyans that you have killed as well as the people of Planet Namek I WILL DEFEAT YOU

Tell me that doesn't sound heroic.

Well what movie three are you talking about ? DB movie three or DBZ movie three ? If it's the latter that's not unpopular.
Also Goku in the original FUNi dub wasn't Super Man clone ?
"IAM THE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE" that is all.

[The Patrolman]

Well what movie three are you talking about ? DB movie three or DBZ movie three ? If it's the latter that's not unpopular.
Also Goku in the original FUNi dub wasn't Super Man clone ?
"IAM THE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE" that is all.

I'm talking about Tree of Might

Even then with the hope of the universe speech. Goku still never felt Superman, maybe because I have seen Superman go out of his element several times

[ABED]

I think you are getting too caught up with the Superman part. It's not Superman specifically as much as most people's conceptions of the goody two shoes superhero who makes grandiose flowery speeches about justice and morality.

[The Patrolman]

I think you are getting too caught up with the Superman part. It's not Superman specifically as much as most people's conceptions of the goody two shoes superhero who makes grandiose flowery speeches about justice and morality.

Well the common complaint about Dub Goku is that he acts way too much like Superman and thats all I kept hearing. I quote it again

And in the name of all the Saiyans that you have killed as well as the people of Planet Namek I WILL DEFEAT YOU

Tell that doesn't sound heroic

[Soppa Saia People]

I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't love Ayres as Freeza. I don't dislike him but my opinion of Freeza didn't change because of him, I guess 10 years of Young makes him better but .

[Draconic]

I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't love Ayres as Freeza. I don't dislike him but my opinion of Freeza didn't change because of him, I guess 10 years of Young makes him better but .

Actually, I agree. He is good, yeah, but I think he lacks a bit of punch in his delivery. Nakao is also soft and well-spoken, but he is also very intense, despite that. Ayers on the other hand nails the sophisticated part of Freeza, but I don't feel that intensity that comes with the character. However I've only heard him in Kai and haven't watched RoF dubbed and I hear that's his best performance... So what do I know?