How would you have setup the climax of the Cell Saga

[TKB21]

From time to time I read that people were discontent on how Gohan reached SS2 thus defeating Cell. One of the common reasons being that he barely knew 16 nor developed a deep relationship as opposed to the other characters to become so emotionally enraged. Having Piccolo or Goku die would probably be cliche amongst fans so I was interested in hearing how you would've setup the climax of this saga.

For me personally I would've gave Vegeta the nod to go SS2 after Trunks' death. I take a look back on the saga as a whole and feel he was due for redemption: The ass whooping he took from 18, the first failed attempt at the Final Flash, being humbled by Cell after his first session in the HTC, being humbled by Cell Jrs. after second session in the HTC, being surpassed not only by Goku but also his son only needing one session in the HTC. All of this these embarrassing defeats (and probably more I'm not thinking of) is undoubtedly more than enough to set Vegeta off.

[Doctor.]

Don't rush the Cell stuff. Have a small section of the arc to develop #17 and #18's characters (and her relationship with Kuririn), so that we feel more attachment towards them. Maybe have Gohan begging #16 not to kill his father, and the two end up becoming friends or something. And, of course, have Gohan meet Cell and maybe let him have a rage moment where he ends up accidentally killing some innocent bystanders. Have Goku regret his decision of leaving Gero alive midway through the arc.

Vegeta was handled perfectly in the arc. And in the entire series, actually. I wouldn't change a thing.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta was handled perfectly in the arc.

Veget was awful in the Android/Cell arc. He was constantly whiny, bitchy, self-centred and created way more problems than solving. I know Vegeta at that time was, for all intents and purposes, still an evil prick, but that doesn't justify the stupid shit he did during that arc. His best moment in that entire arc, in my opinion, was him decimating #19. I mean, he was very smug throughout the battle, but he knew he had to get shit done. He still had the characterisation of rotten bastard who still had his priorities straight and knew how the finish off his opponents, much like how he was on Namek and when he was battling the Z-Fighters on Earth. But for some reason after destroying #19, his IQ just nose dives for some reason. Then after getting his ass kicked by #18, he spends most of his time complaining about how not everything is going his way.

[Doctor.]

Veget was awful in the Android/Cell arc. He was constantly whiny, bitchy, self-centred and created way more problems than solving. I know Vegeta as that time was all intents and purposes a still an an evil prick, but that doesn't justify the stupid shit he did during that arc. His best moment in that entire arc, in my opinion, was him decimating #19. I mean, he was very smug throughout the battle, but he knew he had to get shit done. He still had the characterisation of rotten bastard who still had his priorities straight and knew how the finish off his opponents, much like how he was on Namek and when he was battling the Z-Fighters on Earth. But for some reason after destroying #19, his IQ just nose dives for some reason. Then after getting his ass kicked by #18, he spends most of his time complaining about how not everything is going his way.

And that's why he was handled perfectly. He let the "legendary" Super Saiyan myth get to his head and it came to bite him in the ass. Vegeta's best character moments appear and his most defining traits shine when he's being humiliated, and that happens mostly because he's arrogant and fucks up. You don't need to do everything perfectly to be well-written, Vegeta fucking up so much and being an idiot is what makes him well-written.

[ekrolo2]

Veget was awful in the Android/Cell arc. He was constantly whiny, bitchy, self-centred and created way more problems than solving. I know Vegeta as that time was all intents and purposes a still an an evil prick, but that doesn't justify the stupid shit he did during that arc. His best moment in that entire arc, in my opinion, was him decimating #19. I mean, he was very smug throughout the battle, but he knew he had to get shit done. He still had the characterisation of rotten bastard who still had his priorities straight and knew how the finish off his opponents, much like how he was on Namek and when he was battling the Z-Fighters on Earth. But for some reason after destroying #19, his IQ just nose dives for some reason. Then after getting his ass kicked by #18, he spends most of his time complaining about how not everything is going his way.

And that's why he was handled perfectly. He let the "legendary" Super Saiyan myth get to his head and it came to bite him in the ass. Vegeta's best character moments appear and his most defining traits shine when he's being humiliated, and that happens mostly because he's arrogant and fucks up. You don't need to do everything perfectly to be well-written, Vegeta fucking up so much and being an idiot is what makes him well-written.

Agreed, if there's any guy who's fuck ups make sense in the Cell Saga, its most definitely Vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

And that's why he was handled perfectly. He let the "legendary" Super Saiyan myth get to his head and it came to bite him in the ass. Vegeta's best character moments appear and his most defining traits shine when he's being humiliated, and that happens mostly because he's arrogant and fucks up. You don't need to do everything perfectly to be well-written, Vegeta fucking up so much and being an idiot is what makes him well-written.

Vegeta already went through the stage of letting the myth of the "legendary" Super Saiyan get to his head in the Freeza arc, and it was handled way better, because Vegeta at least had some thought process behind it. It all came full circle, in my opinion, when Vegeta finally did becomes a SSJ and royally thrashed #19, only to later humbled by #18. You'd think we'd see a return of Pragmatic Evil Vegeta, like how he was during the Saiyan arc and Namek arc, but, no, instead, Stupid Evil Vegeta was born and reared its ugly head in the plot.

[Doctor.]

And that's why he was handled perfectly. He let the "legendary" Super Saiyan myth get to his head and it came to bite him in the ass. Vegeta's best character moments appear and his most defining traits shine when he's being humiliated, and that happens mostly because he's arrogant and fucks up. You don't need to do everything perfectly to be well-written, Vegeta fucking up so much and being an idiot is what makes him well-written.

Vegeta already went through the stage of letting the myth of the "legendary" Super Saiyan get to his head in the Freeza arc, and it was handled way better, because Vegeta at least had some thought process behind it. It all came full circle, in my opinion, when Vegeta finally did becomes a SSJ and royally thrashed #19, only to later humbled by #18. You'd think we'd see a return of Pragmatic Evil Vegeta, like how he was during the Saiyan arc and Namek arc, but, no, instead, Stupid Evil Vegeta was born and reared its ugly head in the plot.

I think it works in both arcs. In the Freeza arc, he was simply deluded to the point where he believed he was a Super Saiyan. In the Android arc he actually IS one, he has fulfilled his life objective, he had every right to be cocky at first.

[Lord Beerus]

And that's why he was handled perfectly. He let the "legendary" Super Saiyan myth get to his head and it came to bite him in the ass. Vegeta's best character moments appear and his most defining traits shine when he's being humiliated, and that happens mostly because he's arrogant and fucks up. You don't need to do everything perfectly to be well-written, Vegeta fucking up so much and being an idiot is what makes him well-written.

Vegeta already went through the stage of letting the myth of the "legendary" Super Saiyan get to his head in the Freeza arc, and it was handled way better, because Vegeta at least had some thought process behind it. It all came full circle, in my opinion, when Vegeta finally did becomes a SSJ and royally thrashed #19, only to later humbled by #18. You'd think we'd see a return of Pragmatic Evil Vegeta, like how he was during the Saiyan arc and Namek arc, but, no, instead, Stupid Evil Vegeta was born and reared its ugly head in the plot.

I think it works in both arcs. In the Freeza arc, he was simply deluded to the point where he believed he was a Super Saiyan. In the Android arc he actually IS one, he has fulfilled his life objective, he had every right to be cocky at first.

It still felt like character derailment in a degree, in my opinion. In every instance when Vegeta got his ass kicked because he was so damn cocky, he would come back stronger and more pragmatic. He gets his ass kicked my Goku in the Saiyan arc, only to transform into an Oozaru and cripple Goku as soon as he could, he gets his ass kicked by Zarbon and after getting a zenkai from healing he fights dirty and efficiently kills Zarbon, then in Android/Cell arc when he becomes a SSJ and decimated #19 only to later get his ass kicked by #18, he come backs stronger as a ASSJ and decided for fuck around instead of getting the job done and lets Cell play him like a fool. It just rubs me up the wrong way.

[DBZAOTA482]

It still felt like character derailment in a degree, in my opinion. In every instance when Vegeta got his ass kicked because he was so damn cocky, he would come back stronger and more pragmatic. He gets his ass kicked my Goku in the Saiyan arc, only to transform into an Oozaru and cripple Goku as soon as he could, he gets his ass kicked by Zarbon and after getting a zenkai from healing he fights dirty and efficiently kills Zarbon, then in Android/Cell arc when he becomes a SSJ and decimated #19 only to later get his ass kicked by #18, he come backs stronger as a ASSJ and decided for fuck around instead of getting the job done and lets Cell play him like a fool. It just rubs me up the wrong way.

Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming despite already being inferior to him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an enemy can get from transforming. Also, Vegeta didn't toy with Cell in the manga... he was straight to the point like with #19.

[Lord Beerus]

It still felt like character derailment in a degree, in my opinion. In every instance when Vegeta got his ass kicked because he was so damn cocky, he would come back stronger and more pragmatic. He gets his ass kicked my Goku in the Saiyan arc, only to transform into an Oozaru and cripple Goku as soon as he could, he gets his ass kicked by Zarbon and after getting a zenkai from healing he fights dirty and efficiently kills Zarbon, then in Android/Cell arc when he becomes a SSJ and decimated #19 only to later get his ass kicked by #18, he come backs stronger as a ASSJ and decided for fuck around instead of getting the job done and lets Cell play him like a fool. It just rubs me up the wrong way.

Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming despite already being inferior to him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an enemy can get from transforming. Also, Vegeta didn't toy with Cell in the manga... he was straight to the point like with #19.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta was inferior to First Form Freeza. They clashed and Vegeta held his own.

[DBZAOTA482]

It still felt like character derailment in a degree, in my opinion. In every instance when Vegeta got his ass kicked because he was so damn cocky, he would come back stronger and more pragmatic. He gets his ass kicked my Goku in the Saiyan arc, only to transform into an Oozaru and cripple Goku as soon as he could, he gets his ass kicked by Zarbon and after getting a zenkai from healing he fights dirty and efficiently kills Zarbon, then in Android/Cell arc when he becomes a SSJ and decimated #19 only to later get his ass kicked by #18, he come backs stronger as a ASSJ and decided for fuck around instead of getting the job done and lets Cell play him like a fool. It just rubs me up the wrong way.

Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming despite already being inferior to him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an enemy can get from transforming. Also, Vegeta didn't toy with Cell in the manga... he was straight to the point like with #19.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta was inferior to First Form Freeza. They clashed and Vegeta held his own.

Vegeta was sweating and tired after the clash while Freeza didn't feel a thing. He wasn't in danger of losing.

Just because they clashed for a little while doesn't prove Vegeta was anywhere near him. He was just surprised at his strength.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta goaded Freeza into transforming despite already being inferior to him in his first form and having already seen how powerful an enemy can get from transforming. Also, Vegeta didn't toy with Cell in the manga... he was straight to the point like with #19.

Nothing indicates that Vegeta was inferior to First Form Freeza. They clashed and Vegeta held his own.

Vegeta was sweating and tired after the clash while Freeza didn't feel a thing. He wasn't in danger of losing.

Just because they clashed for a little while doesn't prove Vegeta was anywhere near him. He was just surprised at his strength.

If Vegeta wasn't anywhere near Freeza's strength, there is no way in hell Vegeta would have been able to block both those punches and hold Freeza to a standstill even after Freeza powered up. And you can't tell me Freeza was holding back in his first form, either. Freeza was not fucking around. He was going straight for the kill. Plus, Vegeta was absolutely toying with Cell in the manga, too. Hell, Vegeta thought there would be no need to kill him because of how weak he felt Cell was to in comparison to him. He was totally screwing around with Cell.

[DBZAOTA482]

If Vegeta wasn't anywhere near Freeza's strength, there is no way in hell Vegeta would have been able to block both those punches and hold Freeza to a standstill even after Freeza powered up. And you can't tell me Freeza was holding back in his first form, either. Freeza was not fucking around. He was going straight for the kill. Plus, Vegeta was absolutely toying with Cell in the manga, too. Hell, Vegeta thought there would be no need to kill him because of how weak he felt Cell was to in comparison to him. He was totally screwing around with Cell.

Unless of course... Freeza underestimated him (he even admitted Vegeta a lot stronger than he thought after reading his number on the scouter). Krillin took a few blows from Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai when Piccolo decided to stop dicking around but does that make him anywhere near Piccolo level of power? NO!!

Also, Vegeta's expressions when he attacked Cell show he was putting in effort and Cell was no threat to him so he had every reason to be confident. It was basically like Goku vs. Nappa.

[Lord Beerus]

If Vegeta wasn't anywhere near Freeza's strength, there is no way in hell Vegeta would have been able to block both those punches and hold Freeza to a standstill even after Freeza powered up. And you can't tell me Freeza was holding back in his first form, either. Freeza was not fucking around. He was going straight for the kill. Plus, Vegeta was absolutely toying with Cell in the manga, too. Hell, Vegeta thought there would be no need to kill him because of how weak he felt Cell was to in comparison to him. He was totally screwing around with Cell.

Unless of course... Freeza underestimated him (he even admitted Vegeta a lot stronger than he thought after reading his number on the scouter). Krillin took a few blows from Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai when Piccolo decided to stop dicking around but does that make him anywhere near Piccolo level of power? NO!!.

Freeza underestimating Vegeta doesn't negate the fact that when Freeza came charging at him with the intention of killing him... he couldn't. Because Vegeta was strong enough to stop him from doing it.

[DBZAOTA482]

If Vegeta wasn't anywhere near Freeza's strength, there is no way in hell Vegeta would have been able to block both those punches and hold Freeza to a standstill even after Freeza powered up. And you can't tell me Freeza was holding back in his first form, either. Freeza was not fucking around. He was going straight for the kill. Plus, Vegeta was absolutely toying with Cell in the manga, too. Hell, Vegeta thought there would be no need to kill him because of how weak he felt Cell was to in comparison to him. He was totally screwing around with Cell.

Unless of course... Freeza underestimated him (he even admitted Vegeta a lot stronger than he thought after reading his number on the scouter). Krillin took a few blows from Piccolo in the 23rd Budokai when Piccolo decided to stop dicking around but does that make him anywhere near Piccolo level of power? NO!!.

Freeza underestimating Vegeta doesn't negate the fact that when Freeza came charging at him with the intention of killing him... he couldn't. Because Vegeta was strong enough to stop him from doing it.

It doesn't... but it shows it's not as impressive as you claim it is.

[NitroEX]

Wow, people are really letting the modern portrayal of Vegeta colour their opinions of the past arcs, and not in a good way. Vegeta's role during the Cell arc was not to be a likable badass (like he's portrayed nowadays), you were supposed to hate him during that arc because he was still very much an evil character.

He did show intelligence and cunning during the Freeza arc but that was only because he was outmatched throughout the whole thing. Vegeta had no choice but to play it smart against Freeza but that was a very different situation to the Android and Cell arcs in which he was drunk with power. On two occasions Vegeta thought he'd surpassed everyone and ended up paying for his arrogance, nothing about this contradicts the way he acted before, in fact, even during the Saiyan arc you see him constantly toying with enemies weaker than him. He's always been a sadistic, ego driven fighter and his role in the Cell arc was done perfectly in my opinion.

For me personally I would've gave Vegeta the nod to go SS2 after Trunks' death.

Terrible idea. Not only would it have completely undercut Gohan's transformation but it would have been vegeta's THIRD transformation power up in that one arc, completely unnecessary.

I take a look back on the saga as a whole and feel he was due for redemption

Vegeta already got redemption when he became enraged over Trunk's death, proving that he cared about his son. He also redeemed himself by getting that final shot on Cell.

As far as Gohan not having any interaction with 16 or Cell... I think both work for this arc because 1) 16's death was the first so you could argue anybody dying would have had the same effect on Gohan. 2) Gohan doesn't discriminate against animals or robots, any injustice against life is wrong to him and is perfectly in line with his character. Also the speech 16 gave clearly moved him and that's the only interaction between the two that you really need. 3) Having Cell and Gohan meet prior to the Cell games would have only made it obvious that he'd be the one to beat Cell. Gohan was the least likely Saiyan in that scenario to be the hero and that's what made it an interesting twist, having build up toward their fight would have added nothing to the story.

[sintzu]

Although Vegeta didn't go Ssj2, he played a main role in defeating Cell which IMO more then made up for his past failures.

[apex_pretador]

Vegeta was handled perfectly in the arc.

Veget was awful in the Android/Cell arc. He was constantly whiny, bitchy, self-centred and created way more problems than solving. I know Vegeta at that time was, for all intents and purposes, still an evil prick, but that doesn't justify the stupid shit he did during that arc. His best moment in that entire arc, in my opinion, was him decimating #19. I mean, he was very smug throughout the battle, but he knew he had to get shit done. He still had the characterisation of rotten bastard who still had his priorities straight and knew how the finish off his opponents, much like how he was on Namek and when he was battling the Z-Fighters on Earth. But for some reason after destroying #19, his IQ just nose dives for some reason. Then after getting his ass kicked by #18, he spends most of his time complaining about how not everything is going his way.

He was the only one who got to kill a villain in the entire arc, before gohan killed cell.

He was maybe stronger than goku at one time. Not many people enjoy this dignity.

He got two transformations in the same arc.

He was the one who had the idea to surpass the super saiyan state.

As for letting cell complete, he also forced freeza to transform in namek arc, when he was having trouble with him already. He forced & asked goku to use kaioken vs him. He always does these things.

[fadeddreams5]

Personally, I think the way they handled the Cell Games arc was perfect (besides Gohan nearly allowing Super Perfect Cell to blow up the Earth). The problem is everything that led to that point. I like Doctor's ideas. What this saga lacked was proper character interaction and development of the new characters, as well as Gohan, obviously. 16 and Gohan could have had such great chemistry if they actually came to know each other before 16 was squashed. Trunks and Future Gohan are supposed to be best friends, but they never ever showed any compelling interactions between the former and Gohan's present counterpart. The androids didn't get any proper backstory to make them anything more than just bored teenagers. Their purpose was to kill Goku, yet they NEVER encountered him. Gero had sooooo much potential to be a major villain in the series (not just this saga), but he was short-lived.

I absolutely adore the Android saga, but even I can admit it contains a very, very flawed story. The direction is all over the place.

On a side note, I hate the idea of Vegeta turning SSJ2. SSJ2 did not exist at this point in the series! This was Gohan's special transformation after tapping into his hidden power. "SSJ2" is a Buu saga thing--the saga that destroyed this franchise.

[Lord Beerus]

On a side note, I hate the idea of Vegeta turning SSJ2. SSJ2 did not exist at this point in the series! This was Gohan's special transformation after tapping into his hidden power. "SSJ2" is a Buu saga thing--the saga that destroyed this franchise.

Meh. I found the cast more likeable and more developed in the Majin Boo arc than any other arc since the Saiyan arc. But, hey, opinions.